I have found what I consider to be the ideal brass to use in the very long 45/410 Contender chamber: the old European metric round introduced in 1900 and still somewhat popular over there in doubles and single shot rifles, the 9.3x74R. These cases are available in the US from Norma and RWS. I got my Norma cases from Midway, and at about a dollar a pop, they are not cheap. However, they are the best solution I’ve found in the long 45/410 chamber, and I’m betting the cases will last for many reloadings based on my preliminary testing results.

I roughly measured my 45/410 chamber and found it is a very long 83mm. It is generously sized to fit the long 3-inch 410 shotgun shell. Since the 45 Colt case is only 32.6 mm in length, you can see the bullet would have to pole-vault over to the rifling to exit the barrel. Not good for accuracy, especially with cast lead bullets, as many have reported.

My next step was to use the .444 Marlin case, which is a respectable 56.5 mm long. Necking up the 444 to 45 creates a 45/444 wildcat round, sometimes called the 450 Mongo. Even though the accuracy of this combination was very much better than the 45 Colt, there was still a long gap between bullet and rifling because of my long 83mm chamber. Also, occasionally the rim of the .444 will get behind the Contender’s extractor, requiring some hassle to get it out of the barrel after firing. This is not much of a problem at the firing range (I use an unsharpened wooden lead pencil to push the brass out), but in the field where a quick second shot may be needed (gasp!), this procedure is not too appealing to say the least.

As the ultimate answer to shooting bullets accurately and reliably in the 45/410 Contender, I have concluded the old 9.3x74R case to be it. This brass is 74.7 mm long, thus allowing the bullet, especially heavy ones, to essentially extend to the rifling, which is always good for accuracy. This is especially true of cast bullets like I prefer, because cast bullets don’t like Weatherby-type freeboring where the bullet accelerates in the rifling-free bore (chamber) and hits the rifling at high speed, thus causing the relatively soft lead bullets to strip in the bore. It’s much better to use jacketed bullets in such applications.

To adapt the 9.3x74R case for my cast lead bullets, I first annealed the necks in hot lead to help the brass accommodate opening up from 37 caliber to 45. I then loaded the cases with 200-grain cast lead bullets used in my .357. These bullets fit in the unaltered neck finger-tight, which was enough to develop the pressure needed for forming cases. I used 15 grains of Lil Gun to form the cases. The unaltered, new parent case fit into my Contender’s chamber perfectly. When fired, the case mouth opened up to almost the .45 size needed, and the front end of the brass was kind of wavy due to the parent case’s original shape. To open the mouth up to .45 for reloading, I put a little case lube on a long Craftsman 6mm socket with a quarter-inch drive, which has a shank which measures right at .45 inch. I used an arbor press to ease the socket in for sizing, and a pair of pliers to remove it. I then used the normal .45 reloading tool to bell the mouth to prevent damaging the base of the bullet or the case when reloading. I crimped the neck lightly after loading.

I use polyester filling, rolled up so that the length and breadth of the empty space in the case between powder and bullet are occupied, thus making the round insensitive to position when shooting.

I won’t cite my Lil Gun loads for what now is the metric equivalent of a 11.4 x 74R wildcat. I think this gun can be loaded to reliably kill anything on the North American continent. I use a 332-grain Lyman cast bullet, and I will say the gun and cartridge combination is awesome in every sense. With this cartridge, all of the freebore in the long Contender chamber is taken up with a cartridge the size of a cigar.

When you consider that the Contender 45/410 will also shoot full-length 3-inch 410 loads, a more versatile survival weapon does not exist.

As with any wildcatting experimentation, use extreme caution if you decide to create an 11.4x74R in the Contender. Like any wildcat development, you are blazing a new path which can be dangerous.

I’ll be using my 11.4x74R to go after hogs and deer this year. If we had a bear season, I’d use this gun for that too. If I get bored, I can screw in the 410 choke and kill a quail or squirrel for the pot. For such a compact gun in the field, it just doesn’t get any better than that.

Interesting project, thanks for sharing. How's the accuracy with your cast load?

I'm in the developmental phase of finding the most accurate powder load for my 332-grain Lyman cast bullets. I can say from my fireforming and preliminary followup tests that the longer brass is significantly more accurate that the shorter brass ever was. I have high hopes this is the answer to creating accurate big-game slug loads in this barrel.

Just one question...How much empty space is there between the powder and the bullet? Is that when you put in the polyester filler? I am fascinated about this round as well and really think it can be very versatile. Are you using this out of a pistol or carbine barrel? I have always thought a 21" barrel would be very cool.

Tvlog, there is a lot of empty powder space in my cartridges. This morning I was testing 30 grains of IMR 4198 at about 1000 fps with 300-grain Hornady HP XTPs. The accuracy was great. But the case was only about a third full.

I started out using polyester filling, but I was using so much that the polyester wad evidently was bunching up on the base of the bullet in an uneven manner, causing bullet yaw and even some keyholing. I quit using it, and the accuracy has been great.

The gun I am shooting is a 10-inch Contender. As noted in my original posting, I was seeking better accuracy in the long 45/410 Contender chamber, and I certainly achieved that!

If you want to see a picture of my rig, look at the late postings here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2858

Micheal, very nice outfit. Would the new S&W 460 brass be usable for something like this as well? You would have to be DARN sure you never loaded them to that level, but if you started low and careful, I wonder if that brass would work. I bet that it would still be short and the bullet might have to jump too far to hit the rifling. I have been intersted in this idea before but haven't pursued it any farther than just thinking! Keep posting your results. I am very intersted in the results. Randy

That is an absolutely fascinating sollution! How do you solve the danger of a sudden combustion of all the powder due to powder position now that you do not use the polyester anymore?

I saw the pics at the other site. Hope you do not mind my posting them here: looks too cool to miss

TV, the 460 brass would be shorter than I desired, so I didn't try any. As my initial post indicated, even the long .444 Marlin brass was short of the goal. Only the very long 74mm European metric cartridge case bridged the gap, and it did so with flair as you can see from the pictures that Sean so graciously posted for us.

Sean, thanks for posting the pictures! Your question about unregulated powder detonation is a very interesting one. There are many unanswered questions regarding this issue, and there is a lot of disagreement among experienced people about what causes it and how to avoid it.

If I understand the topic, the main danger is to use relatively small amounts of slow-burning powder in a large case, which may cause secondary explosions which can be destructive to the firearm and maybe the shooter’s arm as well; but, faster-burning powders may be safe in such applications.

For instance, the use of only a pinch of fast-burning powder in a .38 Special case, leaving lots of unfilled room in the case, seems to be OK and is commonly done. On the other hand, a small amount of slow-burning powder in a .460 Weatherby case may lead to gun destruction due to uncontrolled powder detonation.

That is why I began my testing with Lil Gun, which is a pretty fast powder in such a large case as the 11.4 x 74R. That is also one of the reasons why I used the polyester filler. With 20 grains of Lil Gun and enough of the filler to fill the unused powder space, the Contender shot without any damage or signs of pressure, but I used so much polyester filler that it caused some bullet yaw and even an occasional complete keyholing (at 10 yards!) from the effect of the polyester unevenly and inconsistently bearing on the base of the bullet; at least, that's my theory of what was happening. As soon as I quit using the polyester, the accuracy was great with nary a yaw. If I had used just a bit of polyester, there may not have been any problem, but it could lead to another problem, which I’ll mention in a moment.

So, to stop using the polyester filler, I wanted a powder which would utilize more of the cavernous space in the big case. I began using the more bulky and slower-burning IMR 4198 without a filler. This is a pretty popular powder for large straight-wall cases like the .45/70. I am now testing "start at" cast bullet IMR 4198 charges for the .45/70 in my big wildcat. Even though the 11.4 X 74R has more powder capacity than the .45/70, it is not an enormous disparity.

To wit: the .45/70 has a useful powder space capacity of 4.06cc, while the 11.4 x 74R has a useful powder space capacity of 4.35cc (at least, that is what the parent case has); so there is only about a 7% differential. Therefore, I figured my big wildcat is in the ballpark for .45/70 loads. Consequently, I am now experimenting with published IMR 4198 45/70 loads in my wildcat, albeit only the "start at" pantywaist ranges to save my wrist. Remember, my quest is accuracy in the big Contender chamber, not all of the immense power it could develop, especially on such a small platform as the Contender pistol.

Regarding fillers, that is another very interesting question. There are reports that the use of fillers can ring a chamber. For instance, some experienced shooters maintain that a filler that is used only on top of the powder, leaving the rest of the powder space empty, can force a compression of the air in the unused space upon ignition, causing chamber ringing. Thus, some advocate that if a filler is used, it should be used to fill, but not pack tightly, the unused power space to avoid the air compression problem; however, I tried filling the unused space and found the inaccuracy I wrote about. Others may disagree as to what was happening, and disagree about the danger of using a small amount of filler.

I may have had excellent results with just a pinch of polyester instead of filling up the air space, as some recommend; but what about the chamber ringing that others warn about? Oh, the mystery of it all.

There is a great lack of consensus on the topic, so each of us is on our own. There are so many conflicting theories held by knowledgeable people that I don’t feel too badly about being confused. Nevertheless, I don’t want to do something silly, so what I am doing is trying to use the approximate of pretty minimum conventional published charges of relatively fast-burning powder without fillers to avoid problems, and as I noted, the loads I am testing now essentially are contained in various manuals as being found to be OK in the 45/70, although some specify the use of a filler (here we go again).

Even so, my IMR 4198 charges only fill a fraction of the case. To wit: just to see how much it would hold, I filled an 11.4 x 74R case up to the top with IMR 4198, and it measured about 76 grains. Yesterday, I tested a charge of 30 grains of IMR 4198 (40% of a top-full caseload) under a 300-grain Hornady HP XTP, achieving about 1000 fps. I also tested a charge of 35 grains of IMR 4198 (46% of a top-full caseload) under a 250-grain Hornady HP XTP, achieving about 1150 fps. The accuracy from 10 yards to 50 yards was as good as I could hold with a 2X Leupold. The pressure signs are extremely mild, although the kick is very noticeable with the light pistol.

I am happy to say the original 20 11.4 x 74R cases I have been experimenting with are still in excellent shape and on their 12th reload at this point. It appears these low-pressure charges in the big case will yield very long case life, thus negating the initial cost of the quality Norma brass.

I plan to use this gun to hunt deer and hogs this season, and for many seasons to come. At this point, it certainly looks promising.

Michael, thank you very much for the reply. This expirament of yours may turn out to be a very viable method for reedeming those long chambered 45/.410 barrels out there.

The following information is from Accurate's No 1 Reloading Manual, for the 45-70 Government cartridge. You ought to be able to fill the 11.4 x 74R, or come very close to full case capacity, using appropriate rifle powders at safe, Contender, working pressures. All the loads listed are maximum; starting loads start with about 6 grains less powder.

330 (L) HP 2495 BR 59.0 Gr 1,975 fps 19,200 psi

378 (L) RN 2495 BR 55.o Gr 1,935 fps 23,800 psi

405 (L) FN 2495 Br 54.0 Gr 1,801 fps 22,200 psi

475 (L) RN 2495 BR 50.0 Gr 1,748 fps 24,300 psi

500 (L) FN 2495 BR 49.0 Gr 1,670 fps 24,400 psi

SRA 300 HP 2495 Br 66.o Gr 2,175 fps 22,100 psi

These were achieved out of a 24" rifle barrel using WLR primers and WW brass. The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure limit is 28,000 PSI with the 45-70 Government case.

Accurate states that the best results with lower pressure loads with cast lead bullets will probably be achieved with Accurate's 2495BR powder. All the loads listed above were compressed except for the 378 RN bullet load, so it ought to be possible to get better loading densities with rifle powders than pistol powders in the 11.4 x 74R wildcat round for 45/410 chambered T/C barrels...Rusty.

I used 410 brass shotgun shell with good sucess.
Bill

Have you tried 5477?

Mike:

Give Lee's 200 or 250gr REAL bullets a try too.

They shoot great in both m/l's and my blackhawk. Much better than the Hornady 230gr RN's by a long shot.

I tried them in a fairly hot load in the Colt case. My guns a combo, acp/colt.

Used 21gr H110, impressive accuracy and recoil. Just almost hit a prairie dog near a mound at 75yds.
Have never seen one take a flying dive headfirst from a distance to the hole. Just barely missed center right.

Nice looking rig and cartridges' even though my opinion will make everyone mad. I don't like the TC's stock shapes at all. But, the guns are fine.

Wish you well,

George
George