I just got of the phone with Hornady and they assured me that the 120 grain 7mm V-Max would be fine for deer at handgun velocities. The old 120 Gr. Single Shot Pistol bullet (22811)has been replaced with this bullet (22810). I'd like to use this bullet for deer hunting out of my 10" 7TCU and my 22" 7mmx30-30 AI. Do you agree with the Hornady people that it'll work fine?

I have heard this before I'm just not aware of anyone actually in a position to say if it is true. I know that this has been brought up a couple of times & different technicians supposidly had different answers to that question. I would like to know for sure myself. Iwill be watching this thread closely.
Rich Jake

I also would be interested.

If the bullet manufacturers, especially Hornady would have a decent web site all of this information could be determined with little or no staff time on the phones.
A simple chart with bullet, weight, BC, SD, use, and best performance velocity range would be so simple and easy. Kind of like that in the fourth (and maybe fith) edition of their manual. Hornady has ignored this suggestion the three times I suggested it so I have not bought a bullet from them since. Ok, that and the fact that I HAD A PRETTY GOOD SUPPLY OF THEIR BULLETS AS WELL AS SWITCHING CALIBERS where Nosler had a better bullet choice.

I vote for useful web sites!

LouisB

Stepping down from my soap box!

[ 10-28-2003, 03:19: Message edited by: TCLouis ]

I shot a deer with the 120gr V-Max from a 7-30 Waters last year. MV is just over 2480fps and terminal results were devastating. It was a head shot at about 110 yards so this was not a true test of the bullets performance. Anyhoo...I'll just say that had the deer had any dental work...it would have been easily visible from three sides of its head.

This year I have the same bullet loaded in my 12" 7T/CU at about 2250fps and am super anxious to see what will happen.

I have to agree with Louis on this one. If the manufacturers website were a little better you could find these things out easy enough.

I would buy them & try'em out if I knew for sure that they would be OK for a shot on a deer in it's vitals. Generally I've gotten good accuracy with V-max's. I just don't want to shoot a deer & have the bullet explode & just leave a nasty wound on the animal. You would think that the company would have some kind of info readily available about that bullet if it could be used in that application.
Rich Jake

Duplicate please delete.

[ 10-28-2003, 04:28: Message edited by: Rich Jake ]

I am trying them in my 7mm TCU carbine but I think that at 2700 fps from the 7-30 Waters, they're moving too fast to be usable on deer.
Ken mentioned using the 130 gr. Speer SP as the near perfect compromise between bullet weight and speed in the Waters. Using the same bullets, the TCU generally runs 400 fps slower than the Waters in my barrels.

I just sent this e-mail to Hornady. We'll see what they say this time...

Dear Sir,

Yesterday I contacted one of your representatives regarding the replacement of the 120 grain Single Shot Pistol bullet (#22810) with the 7mm 120 grain V-Max(#22811). I was told that they were different bullets in that the SSP Bullet had an "Interlock" that the V-Max doesn't have. He assured me that the V-Max would perform well on deer at handgun velocities just as the former SSP bullet had.

Early this summer on of your representatives told me they are exactly the same bullet but were assigned different numbers for "marketing purposes."

Could you please confirm that the #22810 and the #22811 are the same bullet or tell me what, if any, are the differences between them.

Some of us shooters who frequent the www.accuratereloading.com Single Shot Pistol forum have been discussing this issue. The link is:

http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002608

We will be looking forward to hearing from you. You can reply to this e-mail and I will post the information to the other shooters.

Thanks You,

Patrick McCune
Meadowview VA

Good job I like the email. It should be interesting what the answer will be. Thanks
Rich Jake

Well the bullets are different in a couple of ways. First the V-Max has the polymer tip and it doesn't have the interlock. I prefer the older style bullet. However, the Sierra 130 gr. SSP gets identical velocities with identical powder charges from my 7mm TCU carbine and if I hadn't gotten such a deal on the Hornady SSPs, I'd be using that for the TCU. In the Waters, I think a heavier or more stoutly constructed bullet is in order. I consistently get 400 fps more velocity with the Waters cartridge than with the TCU.

I remember Bobby Tomek posting about these bullets some time ago IIRC. Believe he had correspondence with Hornady also.

Can anybody get a hold of him to ask?

Looks like Mike's forum has farted out again currently.

Regards

I spoke with Doug Derner, ballistic tech at Hornady and he assured me the 120 SSPB and the 120 V-Max are one and the same. If you cut the bullet open you will find the interlock ring. I shoot them from my 7-30 Waters at 2600 fps and have had no problems. Otherwise the Speer 130 gr. flatnose hotcore bullet would do well.

I have also shot the Nosler 120 grain ballistic tips from my Waters pistol with equally good results.

7-30,

Thanks for the info. Since this is the case, I may eventually switch to this bullet for BOTH the TCU and Waters cartridges. Lots cheaper than the Nosler BT.

Thanks I would like to give them a try!
Rich Jake

7-30, you didn't share the important part of your phone conversations. If my memory serves me correct, you had to make two(2)calls to get the right information from Hornady. Glad to see you took the advice to cut one apart. I will keep mine just in case they pull a fast one somewhere down the line.

Is this the appropriate thread to find out if anyone wants to get rid of their Nosler 120gr Ballistic tips??

At Hornady, the right hand has no clue what the left hand is doing. When the 7mm, 120 grain V-Max first came out -- before I could even get a hold of any -- I contacted Hornady and inquired about performance on deer at MVs of 2300-2400 fps. I was told not to even consider it.

Well, I eventually got my hands on 5 boxes of the 120 grain V-Max bullets and ran a bunch of expansion tests. THe jacket of these bullets appeared more "brittle" and prone to break-up -- and hence would not be a good choice for anything but larger varmints.

But now, they are telling us it's the SAME as their bullet originally intended for deer. What gives here? Did they change the design? I really don't think so. I feel Hornady just has $$$ on its mind -- or, perhaps even worse, is simply clueless.

The V-Max bullet will do OK on smaller deer and shots through the ribcage, not the shoulder, but will not give the predictable performance we have come to expect from SSP bullets.

And while I am on my soap box, Hornady's current manual is so full of BS and outright blunders that it is virtually laughable. Look at the recommended MVs for the 7mm, 120 grain SSP. How many single shot pistols in 7mm TCU and 7 BR, etc. get a MINIMUM of 2600 fps MV? (Does that mean it is worthless at 2200 fps???) That's what Hornady seems to say. I e-mailed about this and got the royal run-around. ("We did it this way to avoid confusion." Yea, right...)

Also, they claim to fire the 7BR loads in a Contender. I also asked about this. I asked if they meant "Encore" instead. I was told quite emphatically that the 7BR and a host of larger rounds ('06, .300 WM, etc.)are just fine for the "Contender."

Still trust any advice from Hornady?????

[ 10-29-2003, 02:21: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Bobby, What is your process for bullet expansion testing? I'm curious as I'd like to do some comparative testing for the Hornady 130 gr SSP 30 cal bullet vs Hornady's "other" 130 gr SP 30 cal bullet. I've also had confusing correspondence w/ them on the above mentioned 30 cal bullets, but more on that later. Gary T.

No reply from Hornady today so I sent them this followup:

Dear Sir,

You may want to look at this discussion...You're really taking some heat on the www.accuratereloading.com Single Shot Pistol forum

http://www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=002608

We're anxious to hear your reply.

Pat McCune
Meadowview VA

Maybe tomorrow?

Gary-
In expansion testing, I go to great lengths to get an accurate representation of field performance. My current setup is slightly modified from what I have used in the past. It is basically an oversized, covered crate made of treated and waterproofed plywood (so that it doesn't warp when put in the shed). In the center of the crate is a target holder (I do not shoot into the plywood; there's a square hole in the center to accommodate targets).

What follows, without getting into too great of detail (would bore you to death!) is repetitive chambers consisting of an eighth-inch thick soft wooden panel, a 1" thick chamber of a moistened sawdust-silt mixture in the first chamber, another 1/8th inch wooden panel and a 1-inch thick chamber of water with a bookend of another 1/8" inch wooden panel. To maintain consistency, both the sawdust-silt mixture and the water is snugged between the panels in a 12"x12" heavy-duty plastic bags. I just pull out the bags after each shot and replace with another. The crate is deep enough so that excess silt-sawdust mixture goes to the bottom, and holes in the bottom allow the water to drain out. There are built-in lips to ensure that the filled bags drop to the same position each time.

The number of panels will vary with caliber/bullet/load. But to "catch" the expanded bullets without undue stress and additional deformation, the back slot is a 12-18" (again, depending on caliber/bullet/load) chamber filled with cotton material scraps which have been soaked in water and slightly compacted. This setup, in my opinion, gives a better representation of potential on-game performance than ballistic gelatin. It's a pain to get set up, but it is a breeze to use once you are ready to go.

BTW, I got the basis for the idea by looking at expandable folders in file cabinets.

Just for the record (IF Hornady actually checks out this thread), there are quite a few shooters who'd like to see the original 120 grain, 7mm SSP bullet (#2811) continued! I've taken a number of deer with it in everything from the 7mm TCU, 7mm Int'l Rimmed and 7mm BR. I don't use it as much as I do the Sierra 130 grain SSP, but it has served me well in the past. The #22811, when it first came available, displayed excellent accuracy and expansion properties. But I don't buy the claim that the V-Max and 120 SSP (tipped) are the same bullet unless some significant changes have been made to the V-Max. And if changes were made, where in the lot numbers will this surface??? I'd like to check it out for myself...

[ 10-29-2003, 06:12: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Bobby,

Looks like I agree with you (as I did before the "info" from Hornady).

However, since I can't trust Hornady on this subject, I guess I'll be migrating back to the Sierra 130 gr. SSP for the TCU after these are used up. I'll probably be going to the Sierra 135 gr. .308 SSP as well. Wonder if they have a .358 180 gr. SSP?

I was hoping Hornady would come up with a .312 215 gr. RN but heck, they're dropping several of my favorites, why would they want to make up something new. Very disappointing, but not really surprising.

Hobie - Do not plan on going back to the Sierra .308 135gr. SSP. Sierra discontinued it. After being not being able to find any at Midsouth, Midway, LS&B, and Arms and Ammo, I dropped Sierra an email. This is the reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carroll Pilant" <carroll@sierrabullets.com>
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: re: .308 135 gr. SPT Single Shot Pistol??

Mike, unfortunately we did discontinue it. There just weren't enough people using it to keep making it. It seems like people just now realized we had it after all these years. I wouls fall back on the 125 and see how it shoots for you. I hope we get enough demand for it that we have to start making it again. Time will tell. Sorry we dropped it.

Carroll

__________________________________________________

Sad isn't it. Anyone have any they want to sell? I have three 30 caliber barrels that I was using them almost exclusivly in I have less than a box left

Mike

Hey Guys, I'm back on the home compter where I have my e-mail correspondence w/ Hornady so I'll go ahead and share the info they gave me re: their 30 cal, 130 gr SSP (#3021) bullet. Here's the e-mail I sent them:

"Dear Sir:
I've read on the 'net that your 30 cal 130 gr SSP bullet (#3021) has been discontinued. I was going to check this on your web site, but that page appears to be down at the present time. Is it true this bullet has been discontinued? I've been very pleased using the #3021 in my 12" 300 Whisper Contender on small whitetail deer. I've been thinking of getting a 20" carbine barrel in the same caliber for my 9 year old son to start deer hunting with.

In looking at your 5th ed handbook, the above mentioned bullet and the 130 gr SP (#3020) appear to be very similar w/ the same uses on game and same muzzle velocity ranges. Could the #3020 be used in place of the #3021 on deer sized game, ranges inside 200 yards, and muzzle velocity 2150-2400 fps?"

No response after 3 wks so I resent the letter. The next day I got a response from a tech. He confirmed the SSP bullet had been discontinued ("lack of demand"), but said the #3020 bullet should expand adequately.

A few days later, I got another e-mail from a second Hornady tech. He said the #3021 bullet had not been discontinued. He didn't address my questions about the performance of the #3020 bullet. I sent him back an e-mail regarding my confusion about the differing info from Hornady on the status of the #3021 bullet. He didn't address this issue, but stated the #3020 has a thicker jacket in the nose so wouldn't work as well as the #3021 (SSP) in the 300 Whisper. I'll probably try the #3020 anyway, but this has been a very confusing venture.

Bobby, I'm thinking about doing some expansion testing to compare the two 30 cal bullets, but don't think I'm up to your rigorous method; I think I'm probably just to "technically challenged" for that. Bobby, sounds like your method should provide "real world" results, but are you aware of simpler methods that can provide useful, albeit more limited, info? Gary T.

[ 10-29-2003, 07:05: Message edited by: Gary T ]

Gary-
First, that 130 grain SP is definitely tougher than the SSP. I can tell you that from experience -- no matter what one Hornady tech may tell you. You'll realize minimal expansion with it (the SP).

There's a very simple but enlightening test you can do. Get an anti-freeze jug or something similarly constructed (gallon milk jugs are too thick to give reliable results). Fill it with water, cap it and place a sheet of plywood or paneling app. 6 feet behind it. Back off to your desired range and center-punch the jug. If the hole in the wood is basically caliber-size, you won't get much expansion -- if any -- on deer. If you are seeing many fragmented holes or pieces of jacket stuck in the wood, the bullet is more than likely too fragile for game applications. But if you wind up with a hole that's in the area of 20-50 percent larger than caliber-size, it will more than likely do just fine on deer.

Gary-
Also, the listing of the velocity range for the .30 cal, SSP bullet is another gross error and oversight by Hornady, but they will tell you it was intentional and "accurate". But you guys be the judge and jury. After all, how many shooters have their 30-30s, Herretts and Whispers cranked up from 2500-3700 fps?

Another "eye-opener" is Hornady calling the standard 6.5-06 an "improved" cartridge. So what namesake does this leave for the REAL 6.5-06 Improved??? I could go on and on...

I hate to say this, but it appears the entire 2-volume set was conceived and written in haste, with little or no regard to editing and fact-checking. Spend some time perusing the 2 volumes, and you will see this for yourself.

I am sorry I spent the money for it. With all the mistakes, it's a slap in the face to anyone who cares about precision and accuracy, no matter if it's on the range or in the library.

[ 10-29-2003, 07:33: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Gary T, et al.
20 ounce coke bottle or a hedge apple will substitute nicely for the anti-freeze jug.
The splash and splatter distance seem to relay a lot of information on what "effect" the bullet had in passing also.
Unfortunately hedge apples are NOT available to all bullet testers. No we can't ship ya one or to either <lol>
I put a piece of cardboard about 1-2 feet behind the hedge apple and I can tell you EXACTLY what the bullet looked like! Found some very disappointing expansion results this way, and some very explosive bullet actions also.
Stumbled on this by accident some years ago as I shot a citrus fruit set up in front of my target as I got ready to do a shooting session.
Hornady SX coming out of my Donaldson made a very interesting hole in the cardboard backer.
As someone said 1 gallon milk jugs are TOO distructive. Glen Fryxell told me about the small coke bottles.
NOT many hedge apples in Washington state for him to use I guess.

LouisB

All wild speculation and supposition of course . . . Who knows how it will perform until it is too late!

I'm curious now, if it makes adifference what medium one uses for expansion comparison as long as the medium is the same during the test. Bobby T. uses a well thought out trap, some use wet paper, others use wet phone books, and yet others ballistic gel.

For expansion tests does it make a difference? I know for trying to duplicate field results, wet phone books don't cut it. That's a story with 120 grain Sierra spitzers and a 7-30 Waters.

Items like wet phonebooks and ballistic gelatin work OK with some bullets but not with all. THose bullets prone to fragment, shed cores, etc. are often held together by the mass and density of the wet phonebooks or gelatin because there is no "give" in the outside area of the wound channel. Also, with some bullets, that type of density will create expansion in a bullet that otherwise won't open on game.That's why tests using such media must be viewed with a grain of salt.

[ 10-29-2003, 16:58: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Absolutely agree Bobby. Don't you think that different bullets fired into the same medium are going to perform differently? I had some Hornady Match bullets seperate, and fragment in wet phone books as well. I do agree as well - this is to be taken only for what it's worth.

Since we have digressed to the 30 cal Hornady SSPB I will share the following information in respect to expansion tests.

I shoot into soaking wet compressed phone books that are about 3 inches thick before being saturated.

I have a 14 inch contender Bullberry Barrel Works custom barrel chambered in 7.62x39 (.308 bore) 1:10 twist.

I have shot the following bullets.

Hornady 130 SSPB - expanded out to 150 yards
Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip - Expanded out to 200
Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip - Expanded out to 200

Never did do any expansion tests on the Sierra 135 grain SSPB

Initial velocities were from 2250 fps to 2000 fps. I wanted to duplicate the 30 Herrett without the hassle of making my own brass.

I've been using the 120 Balistic tip but was hoping the V-max would have been a good alternate. Oh well I guess I'll just be staying with the Noslers. Too bad !
Rich Jake

7-30 Waters

Do you have any velocities to go along with the expansion testing. I have always thought about the advantage of the 150 BT if it would expand out of my 30 Herrett.

LouisB

TCLouis:

Barrel length - 14
Rate of twist - 1:10
Caliber 7.62x39 (.308 bore)

Powder - Reloader 7
Charge - 24.5
Velocity - 2250 fps
Bullet - Nosler 125 Ballistic Tip

Powder - Reloader 7
Charge - 22.5 grains
Velocity - 2100 fps
Bullet - Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip

Powder - H4895
Charge - 28 grains
Velocity - 2025 fps
Bullet - Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip

Powder - H4895
Charge - 26 grains
Velocity - 1800 fps
Bullet - Nosler 165 Ballistic Tip

All of these loads are Max charges in the loading manuals and my gun. I have found H4895 to be a wonderful powder for 150, 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. Powder is a little on the slow side but get the job done with superb accuracy.

I spent a whole day shooting these two bullets into wet phone books. One interesting things is that the 150 grain bullets shed there jacket before the 125 's did. The faster the velocity the better the expansion. Not sure why.

I wish the case for the 7.62x39 didn't have such a sharp taper. If it had more of an improved designe then I am sure I could get more velocity from it. Kind of like a 30 PPC or 7.62x39 AI.

Hope this information is helpful. Well off to the reloading room to stoke up some 260 Remington ammo.

7-30 Waters

Well boys I just received a package from the Ballistic Techs at Hornady today. Inside was to 7mm 120 grain V-Max's cut in half vertically with the core remove from one half.

Yes Virgina there is a Santa Claus and yes all you 7mm Pistol shooters the V-Max has an Intelock Ring in the copper jacket. So we still have a bullet to shoot on deer.

End of Story.

I'd like to know when Hornady made the switch as I still have a couple of unopened boxes in my loading room. The original V-Max, I can assure you, did not have an interlock ring, and once things slow down here (wife's been in the hospital for a month now), I am going to try and locate some of the recovered jackets which have no "ring" to speak of.

The #22811 (tipped) SSP was a very good bullet. If that bullet is now sold under the V-Max name, I may go back to them. But I would first get an asbolute on lot numbers so as not to get any of the older projectiles which were truly a varmint bullet.

Bobby Tomek: My guess is they made the switch when Hornady dropped the lead tipped 120 SSP from there line up. Can't remember when that was. I still have a couple of boxes of the lead tipped ones to shoot up along with a couple of boxes of the poly tipped that say 120 SSP. I need to buy a box of the V-Max's. I shot all my others up in my 280 Rem for coyotes and other pesky critters. I guess I can shoot them all in my 280 for varmits.

I doubt that the techs at Hornady don't even know when the change occured.