Just bought a used T/C .300 whisper barrel. It came with 300 pcs of brass and 30 loaded rounds. I am having trouble getting the ammo to fire. I believe it's a headspacing problem but thought the "experts" here could help. I did try the pencil test, it passed. I put an empty in the chamber it seemed to be recessedless than .010 (measured). Took 50 rounds to the range only 12 fired. When I got home I removed the heads and powder with a kinetic puller, put the shell back in the gun and the primer fired in all but 2 cases. I even tried to reload the cases that did fire backing off on the die so the shoulder did not get touched and still had the same fail to fire condition. Any ideas? Thanks for the input.

I'm no expert but here is a simple test. On an empty chamber and without cocking the hammer, dry fire the gun ( with the .300 barrel ) and pull back on the hammer just a tiny bit and let it down. You should here a little click and the hammer should rest against the frame. If it hesitates or does not come down, then odds are the locking lugs are not seeting deep enought to disengage the hammer safety. This sounds very much like this is the case. The cure is to stone the top of the lugs on the barrel just enough to let it engage deeper and remove the safety.

Just tried it it works just as it should.

So much for the easy stuff. The primers show light strikes right? I guess I'd next check headspace. First measure the barrel to frame gap with a feeler gauge. Then remove the barrel and take out the extractor. Place a sized case in the chamber and push it in all the way. Now measure the depth of the case below the barrel face. That plus the frame gap is the headspace. That frame to barrel gap may be enough to cause a problem. I have one frame / barrel combination has a rather large gap that shows light primer hits. Mike Bellm has some more info here => Bellm's info
Hope this helps.

If they didn't fire loaded, but fired as empty cases, it sounds like the bullets might have been seated out to far. That would cause the gun to not lock up right, and (drop the hamer but) not fire.

If it is a true Whisper chambering, I would be surprized if you can get the bullet to touch the lands with any bullet lighter than 220 gr. Not sure about the TC vs. SSK models.

Could be headspace. Could be that lugs are not locking up as they should. Could also be that the hammer block has some grease or grime that is preventing it from falling out of the way quickly enough. Could be that the frame has had a couple of very hot rounds fired through it and has pushed the piece surrounding the firng pins back so that the one for centerfire is being impinged on.

As for the cases firing when empty but not otherwise, I would almost suspect that the shoulder had not been set back enough (except that you say it is recessed somewhat). If the recess measurement is with the extractor in, it may not take into account the fact that the extractor is springloaded and may be holding the case in place although the case is headspaced considerably shorter.

Just some ideas. TC problems are part of the fun - teaches you lots of things about how firearms work. Enjoy solving your problem.

Rob Reiman

[ 10-14-2003, 05:06: Message edited by: Rob ]

Thanks for the input guys, a little more info... I have measured the distance from the rear of the casing to the barrel without the extractor and the distance is between 0 and .010 below flush. I have new redding dies, smoked the shoulder on a case that did fire, put it into the die and the shoulder did not touch the die,(did not get bumped back). I have other centerfire barrels for contenders 6 to be exact, and have never had a misfire so I believe that the firing pin in itself is not to blame. I will look into the spacing between the barrel and frame but as I remember there was no gap. As I said thisone does confuse me. And Yes I can contact the rifling with 200 gr. sierra bullets, Just a little confused, one post said if the casing was out too far it would cause problems and another said to seat it to the rifling. Any input here? Thanks again for the help

dwbuzzard
So you get this right consult www.bellmtcs.com there you will find a link for Mike's forum & you can ask him direct. While I know Mike is somewhat contrversial he knows how T/C's operate. Mike Bellm has always been a help with problems like these. Give it a try. Just in case I was off base.

Rich Jake

it should never go below flush! size till it's out .001" less than barrel to frame gap for correct headspace. mine didn't start misfiring till they were sticking out .010", then i adjusted the sizer down till i had .002" out. you sure you didn't shove the shoulder back? it's hard for me to tell unless i gauge with a feeler blade.

For clarification, you can get misfires if shoulder is set too far back or not far enough. Too far back and the firing pin merely pushes the case forward and does not have energy to strike the primer hard enough. With the shoulder not set far enough back, the case is too long and prevents the gun from locking up properly (also may affect accuray as well as the longer case will put pressure against the breach that may not be the same every time - lack of consistency equals lack of accuracy.

While I have never had the experience, some have complained about rimless cartridges not consistently firing in Contenders no matter what they did to correct the problem. I cannot understand that but some have swore that it is true.

Was thinking that your case length may be too long or too thick or both, and creating the same problem as having the shoulder not set back enough. With the bullet in the case, the neck expands and creates the headspace problem. The runout (angle of the bullet off the centerline axis of the cartridge) of the bullet can also create a similar problem. To check this you might try very light bullets - 125 gr. NBTs or 110 gr. Hornady.

One other thing you may try for the heck of it is polishing and chamfering the brass.

If can't get anything to work, have a gunsmith cut a rim and use .360 DW brass from Starline necked down. You will have to anneal it before necking it down because it is so hard, but it will solve headspace issues. That is what I use in my Whisper, but for best accuracy you should neck turn also.

Like I said, a Contender can make you learn a lot about guns and how they work.

Thanks for all the info to consider. Kyode, I know what you're saying about the brass but this brass came with the gun, fired. Some had been tumbled and deprimed, some just fired. The guy I bought it from let me use his dies till my new redding dies came in. Using either his dies or the loads he gave me, I had problems. When I got the new dies I smoked one and set it till it just touched the shoulder. Loaded 20 went to the range and had misfires.When I got home and took the rounds apart I found them to be upto .010 deep (below flush). Even with that a few did fire. As I said this is a strange problem at least for me. I think that talking to Mike Bellm might shed some more light on the subject, and yes I did go to the link about putting a shim to measure lock-up, mine is .004. Another guy told me that if there is oil on the shoulder in the chamber headspace problems sufrace, anyone hear this. I did clean found just a little but hav'nt tried to fire it yet. Thanks again.

dwbuzzard
You probabaly would be able to fix the problem with new brass & sizing it properly. What I was suggesting was so you could possibly save the brass that you have. In essence fireforming it back to it's original dementions.
Rich Jake

[ 10-15-2003, 16:50: Message edited by: Rich Jake ]

DW,
If your brass is properly headspaced on the shoulder before attempting to fire it, and then 0.010" deep afterward, the only thing I can think of is that you are doing everything right, but that the brass is too soft. The firing pin striking the primer seems to be pushing the case into the chamber and pushing the shoulder back. Doesn't make sense that the case would fire empty and not when full (unless the primer is partially dented and the second strike is enough to ignite the primer on its anvil). What type of primers are you using? You might try a different brand of primer. Or even a different lot of the same make, since the batch you have could be harder than others of the same make.

It sounds like the sizing die was down too far on your friend's press, but is okay on yours. He may also have bought the brass already formed, which is always a crapshoot on wildcats.

What bullets do you intend to use? 125gr? 150gr? 180gr? Heavier? Assuming it is a T/C barrel (if it was SSK, you probably would have said so), see if you can seat a bullet so it is just into the lands when you close the frame.

Firing rounds loaded this way will reform the shoulder where it belongs. You can buy some cheap OEM bullets for this exercise.

George

Been busy for a couple of days, finally had a chance to shoot. After trying everything it seems that the Rem 7 1/2 primers are the culprit. I tried Federal and had no problem, and had a problem with the .223 using Rem primers. I don't wnat to blame the rem primers, they are good, but since the change to feds not one misfire. Maybe the hammer spring needs replacing. In any case the old story of some primers being harder than others has new meaning to me. Maybe not harder maybe the anvil is not as close to the cup or maybe the material is thicker. At least I have a primer that works, if I change the hammer spring I will post. Thanks for the help guys.