Just got back from THE Heretic's training camp.

To say the weekend was a pleasure would be the understatement of the year. Mike and his wonderful wifre Dee are wonderful hosts and took great care of Tim Ryan and myself. Dee has been submitted for sainthood for the way she puts up with Mike.

I went up this weekend hoping to get my first in several sessions of pointers on rechamber, and just plain chambering. Toward that end I brought a 10" .22 LR that I had decided either needed to be a .218 Bee or .22 Mag. Thanks to Sean I decided that I would go with the Mag.

When I pulled in the yard, Mike told me he had a suprise for me. Did he ever. You will see in the pictures one ugly son of a gun, well you will see two, I'm the younger one, at the lathe. That's me rechambering my own .22 barrel. The most fun you can have with your pants on!!! (Eat your heart out Sean )

You'll also see some pic's of Mike and the back of Tim's head (possibly his best side). I tried to capture the feel of Mike's shop - it's little, but exactly what Disneyland would have looked like if one of us had designed it.

I'll try and post some more about this trip of all trips, but right now, I need some time with the family and some sleep.

Take care all,
steve
Trip to Mike's

Steve
You got me drooling over here! I would love an opportunity to see & learn the stuff you were doing. I enjoyed seeing the pics. Thanks.
Rich Jake

[ 02-03-2003, 09:16: Message edited by: Rich Jake ]

If you look close at a couple of the pics, you will notice the two corners of the room. I can't remember the exact deminsions of Mike's shop, but I think it is around 8x12.

Mike also shared some about P.O. Ackley. Touching stuff, sounds like he was a heck of a man. Makes my new .250 Savage Imp'd a little more special.

Don't want to forget about Tim Ryan. He is a heck of a guy and a real crack up. Smart guy too. The two of them in one room makes me feel like a real idiot.

I hope there is a chance for a get together - along the lines of the Bower clinic - possibly near Mike's house. I already suggested knocking out one wall of his shop and setting up bleachers to watch. :-)

steve

1buba, that second test fire round from the .250 Savage Imp. using the .307 Win. brass checked out great!

Congratulations now that you have chambered your first barrel and have been "annointed" in cutting oil!

BTW, Dee puts up with me just fine so long as the guests I invite in are as great to have around as you and Tim.

Remember the charge you were given: Don't keep what you learned to yourself. Pass it on.

All the best,

Mike

Steve you left out the best part. How did it shoot?
Rich

Steve,

You will love that 22Mag rechamber! Thanks for sharing your experiences with the "Heretic"! I want to make the journey out there one day myself: a bit of a trip from VA to Or

One comment as to the pics: you owe me a new computer monitor as mine os now cracked

Dead Eye -
The best part is also the worst part. I didn't get a chance to shoot at anything other than the Heritic's dirt pile. Will have to go buy some ammo this week and hopefully make it to a range this weekend.

Sean,
Let me know if you have a chance to get there. I'd love to make it up and meet you. Sorry about your monitor, but I can't start paying for that now - I'd go broke. :-)

Heretic,
Took me an hour to wash the annointing oil out of my hair last night. I'm STILL whopped from the drive. Dee is a saint. I had a blast. I SHALL RETURN! I will share what I know, but so far that would take 1 or 2 seconds. :-) I'll be making some calls today looking for tools and supplies. The work on the phase converter starts tonight. :-)

steve

steve !!! you lucky dawg !!!!
course mike n' dee are great people !!!
they from missoura !!! heehee !!!
and ??? like mike say's .........share !!!
congrats on yer oily hair !!!
snake oil ??? lol !!!
buckweet

Gotta confess..... all that non-stop serious talkin' 'bout guns, things, and shooting stuff over that long weekend left me just plain tuckered. Tooooo much fun too fast. But it was great, and I cannot help but feel it was a great investment in two great people that will benefit everyone in time.

Then again, it mighta been the phone call from Sean last night that was the coup de gras. Want to know what a real impossibility is? I'll tell you. A 15 minute phone conversation with Sean. Two over active minds over 3,000 miles apart. Keeps the phone companies from going broke, but keeps the investigative aspects of TCs quite alive and well! Can't wait to see the results from his next test and his paper on forends!

Tim is getting dangerously close to doing something serious.....I'm not sure just what yet, and I don't know if he knows either. He has been getting his feet wet doing some of his own projects and was like a sponge absorbing all he could while he was here. So did Steve, but Tim has a headstart with the hands on aspects. What is really encouraging is that they are both perceptive and grasp the concepts quickly.

Tim already has started his reamer collection, and one of the last things we covered was sharpening reamers, including getting rid of the throat section on a reamer and the importance of not having fluted areas of the reamer in front of the neck area large enough to catch chips and score the tops of the riflings, which almost all reamers do to some extent. Some reamers really gouge the tops of the rifling badly and far enough forward of the throat that the damage remains.

We need more "new blood" in our sport. No telling how long the Lord will leave me here before he decides I'm having too much fun, but in the meantime I hope to see more of the younger generations inheriting the experiences of us older folks to use as their launching pad. No point in taking it with me.

Mike
THE Heretic

Mike,

Have you ever read Guy Lautard's Machinist Bedside Readers? I don't recall which volume it was, but one of them had a rather lengthy article on sharpening reamers. I'm curious what your opinion of the info was, if you've read the article. If not, I'll burn you a copy and send it your way.

Have you used a flush coolent system, seems like it could aleviate some of the chip problems.

All I can say is thanks for infering I've got younger blood. :-)

Don't know if Mike has the Bedside Readers, but I have three (all of them?) and may have to send them up to him. They are indeed great reading.

steve

[ 02-05-2003, 01:09: Message edited by: 1buba ]

Steve,

Guy is working on a 4th reader, but when it'll come out is anyone's guess. If Mike hasn't read them, I have no doubt he'll thoroughly enjoy them. I still enjoy re-reading them, and reminding myself of all the great little treasures in them.

Shoot. Just gave all my HF stuff to a boys group. Still have a 6 meter radio...

Would Turtle II be a .22 short?

You going to start a list to send your reviews to? I'd like to be on it...

steve

Just a reminder that there is a group of us meeting every night on Yahoo Messenger. It's totaly FREE. All you need to do is go to Yahoo.com and get a free email and then down load the yahoo messenger. You will need a microphone to talk or you can just type. It has it's problems but it is workable. Just let me or mssmagnum know what your new email is so we can invite you in,
Rich

Certainly, Sean. I can put a url in my Newsletter mailings to link to your site. So far as I know, I cannot add attachments to my Newsletters since it is entirely controlled on the server, thus my normal email client with attachment capabilities can't be used.

BTW, I remembered after mailing the .32 H&R Mag 10" factory barrel that I had mentioned tweaking the throat on it to give it a longer leade angle. I did not do this..... could make for a before and after test.

So much fun to be had and so many things to explore. No wonder we can't have a 15 minute conversation! Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Mike

Mike

Somewhat off topic, but not really.

Steve and Tim will better appreciate what I am about to say, but without getting maudlin.... do guys use that word???? ...... in regard to my last visit with P.O. Ackley in the nursing home just days before he died, I think this may have had more impact on me than I realized. Or, perhaps I am just now realizing why I take some of the attitudes I do.

More specifically, consider what the man himself did: developing button rifling outside the factories, all the wildcat and improved cartridges, the barrel making and reboring work he did, writing for Shooting Times for years, the books he wrote, and much, much more.... all the treasures he left us. Then add 10 years of having him for a personal mentor, totally changing and challenging my perspectives of "things and stuff." Consider the hard lessons learned along the way. The costs involved. The long hours. The impacts on personal life. Stir in a LOOOOONNNG list of "war stories" about his feuds with Elmer Keith, his relationship with Fred Huntington over the years, and many others such as Paul Marquart & Bill Atkinson.... to say nothing about all the former students who got their "foundation" from him, including Dick Casull who did most of his early developmental work while working for Ackley.

Then......stand there by his bedside looking at the shell of a man remaining, medicated, incoherent, nearly unconscious, and his loving wife Winnefred reaching through his bed rail to touch him from her wheel chair.

Reality hits. For all he did, and for all I might do, the grave gets us all. The "glory of the world passes."

He left me with a lot and effected me greatly. It was a privilege to have had the 10 years' direct contact with him.

Perhaps this would be best left unsaid, but when some smart a_ _ here fires a cheap shot about riding on Ackley's name or some such inference, they are stepping on mighty sensitive ground. Well, there, I said it anyway.

Bottom line is that there is so much to learn yet, so much fun to be had with our sport, and it is a pleasure to work with young men who share the passion for the subject. It is a privilege to pass on what I have learned. For better or worse, their lives will be changed for it, much as Ackley changed mine.

All the best.

Mike

Mike,

I can somewhat relate to how special a master craftsman, apprenticeship relationship is.

While totally unrelated to gunsmithing, and for a much shorter time, I worked with a master automotive designer to build his third land speed record vehicle. I was fortunate to be unmarried at the time, and unemployed as well. The 70+ hours a week we'd put into the project had a great impact on me as an individual.

To those that have experienced such relationships, no words are needed, to those that have not, no words are sufficient.

I have a great deal of admiration for the original thinkers, experimentors, creators, and doers of this world.

I especially appreciate your willingness to share what you have learned, keep it up, for the 1 guy taking cheap shots on the side, there are 100 of us with ears bent, learning, and waiting to put what we've learned into action.

Sean,
I must admit that Browning looks like quite a rig. That is a single shot, right? Single shot per pull of the trigger anyway.

Should be a lot of fun.

Mike

And, Paul, thanks for the support.

Mike

I'M JEALOUS. Sounds like you guys are working toward a fun and rewarding career, and I'm just stuck here! Mike, Is that opportunity available to others as well? Mike

Where can one find info on the Nill grips? I have two High Standard target pistols that need that type of grip to increase my accuracy levels in Bullseye shooting. Also will these grips fit a contender or 1911 Colt?

Mike Hames

Sean, Consistency of grip is vitally important to accurate shooting.

Those who have shot over the Bower rest system will attest to how rock solid stable and consistent it is, BUT......as stable as it is, the system is STILL very dependent upon a consistent grip, meaning not only placement of the hand AND trigger finger on the trigger, BUT also very much so upon the degree of firmness of the pressure your hand exerts on the grip of the gun.

...... gives meaning to "loose nut on the grip" as a cause of poor accuracy. No "accuracy guarantee" given by ANY barrel maker can correct for that!

So your observations and points about the custom grips should be taken seriously by those trying to herd all their bullets through the same hole.

Mike

Thanks for the unexpect nugget of wisdom Sean! I absolutely believe that good accuracy comes from a consistent grip...especially when it comes to shooting a pistol. While I don't believe it is necessary to rely on fancy grips, I also believe that a good fitting grip makes it much easier to obtain a consistent grip. Goodness knows that I don't need another thing to think about when I'm trying to shoot! Sometimes I have a hard time just remembering to squeeze the trigger in a nice consistent manner!!

Mike -
Just want to get my request in first... If someone else comes for the weekend jamborees - they have to share a bunk w/ Tim. Oh yeah, they AIN'T bunks. hahahahaha

steve

If it weren't such a long drive, I'd be very interested in paying a visit to the Bellm skunk works

I just might have to figure out a way to pull it off in a year or two.

OK, Steve, so they aren't bunks in the usual sense. Camp trailer beds. BTW, that is another bed above where you slept. The cabinet doors fold down. So Tim is safe!

However, the problem is 4 people in the shop at once. We mastered 3 in there, but 4?????

Paul, come on down. Got your lathe set up yet?

Mike

Mike, Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your honesty and straitforwardness, we need more of that. As to my credibility, I can tell you, but that's meaningless, so maybe one day I can show you. I admire your willingness to help out in the sport and at some point maybe I can outfit my shop to do this type of work. A Guild IS a family and due the same respect...not taken lightly. I understand. If I can proceed with this, I will be contacting you. Thanks again, Mike M.

Steve,

If we have 3 of us in the bunk house, I get the top bunk and you get the lower!!!!!!LOL



[ 02-09-2003, 07:49: Message edited by: trcuda ]

Seeds for planting a guild?????

Tim is an expert at grooming trees. How about grooming a guild, Tim?

Seriously. I am open to discussions about forming a guild. Can't say I have any experience in how a guild really functions, but have some ideas about it and what I would be interested in seeing it accomplish.

The times are ripe for a number of good barrel craftsmen, and I would be quite pleased to head it up.... with some help.

It could be used to set standards, provide technical assistance to newcomer and experienced folks alike, serve as a buying group for barrels so the little guy could have an edge against the shops getting bottom dollar prices on barrel blanks, plus any number of functions for the advancement of top quality barrels without raping folks with $4-500 barrels that repeatedly have to be sent back for corrections.

For all those with the demand syndrome hellbent on rating shops by how quickly they can poop out a product for them to send back to get made right and then whining about it, do something for all of us interested in the TC system and get off the sidelines and into the trenches doing the work yourself. Instead of just weilding the credit card or checkbook and whining about the situation overall, DO something to make a difference. I think they call that "proactive."

Mike

Floating pilots are good, but not all they are cracked up to be. They are not a cure all for a poor set up.

I also disagree with the whole notion about "floating reamer holders." All they do is let the reamer wallow around.

A few of my reamers have floating pilots, but they are seldom used. In fact, take the .308 Bellm chambers. I cut the body of the chambers with a 7mm-08 Rem. reamer, whose pilot obvsiously does not even touch the bore.... the tops of the riflings.

In fact, if you do not have oil being pumped through the bore from muzzle to breech to flush chips out the back, you are better off with an undersize pilot that does not have flutes extending into it and catching chips with get sheared between the reamer pilot and the riflings, chewing the daylights out of them. And, btw, most reamers with floating pilots will do this also since the flutes extend forward of where the throat is and the reamers are large enough in that area to catch chips and gouge the riflings. Borescopes don't lie about the ugly truth.

Throating separately is the key. This is the one and only dimension in the chamber that you can control to the tenth of a thous., and it is the most critical area of the chamber.

As Tim and Steve will tell you, where possible I lathe bore the hole true with the bore in the barrel after first dialing the bore in. There is no reamer wallowing around. It has a large hole concentric with the bore to start into, and you would have to work pretty hard to make it cut off center. I also lathe bore most rim counterbores instead of relying on the rim cut on reamers to do it.

Ole deadeyedick got a take off benchrest barrel that had been installed by one of the more notable benchrest gunsmiths. The probable reason for getting this little fired barrel so cheaply was the fact that the throat was very noticeably offset from the bore. And I'd lay 10 to 1 odds the chamber was cut with a reamer with a floating pilot!

This is not to say the floating pilot caused the misalignment, but rather the floating pilot did not PREVENT the misalignment.

I think I still have the chamber saved after cutting it off to make a Contender barrel out of it. If you make it down here, I'd be glad to show you hands on what I am talking about.

Myself, I would never spend the money to add floating pilots. They are not needed.

Spend your money on throat reamers with special grinds .0001" to .0003" max. larger than bullet size for a given caliber and with a long leade angle, at least 1 1/2 degree or less. DO NOT buy off the shelf throat reamers. They usually run about .001" larger than bullet size. At least this used to be the rule at Clymer, and I used to pay Dave Manson to take throaters back and spin 'em down for me. It does make a difference.

Unless you are running tight neck chambers, which is a hassle that few will mess with, the neck with .003 to .010" thousandths clearance can't do much to support the bullet when it engraves. Only the throat has an firm control on what happens to the bullet. The case heads it in the right direction, but that is all. Lean on the throat. The throat is your friend. Learn to make the throat work for you.( And you guys that went to Alliance thought the wind was your friend. )

Solid pilot v. floating pilot v. no pilot at all on throat reamers..... doesn't make much difference.

Case in point. For all the .375 JDJ ....oooops, 375x444 Marlin.... rechambers of factory barrels and new chambers I have cut, they have all shot extremely well. And of course I grin when owners of these barrels claim they outshoot the SSK .375 JDJ custom barrels. There is no pilot on my .375 throat reamer at all, and it centers the throat very nicely with the bore. If Mark Dumais is on board, he can peer into his .375x.338 Win. Mag and vouche for it. His was one of the most recent .375s I have cut.

Virtually all of my throat reamers are solid pilot, and the pilots on all of them are quite a bit smaller than the bore so that the pilot is doing essentially nothing. The reamer "wants" to follow the hole. Give it a straight shot in, and it will. And you would be amazed at how closely a throat reamer follows the bore even in badly warped bores where, to borrow Tim's description of it, "looks like a kids jump rope" going around.

Eh. Just come on down.

Mike

Hey, Paul, what did you have to pay for your .221 FB reamer. If it was cheap enough I can't afford to grind one, I might pick one up also. Mine is due for replacement.

Mike

Mike -
You can pick up a .221 Fireball from Shawnie for $69. They have some others on sale for that amount here:

http://www.reamerrentals.com/shawnie_reamers.htm

P.S. - Not that you need it, but they also have a .250 Savage Imp'd for that price.
steve

[ 02-11-2003, 19:38: Message edited by: 1buba ]

Mike,

Buba beet me to it

I've 1/2 digested all that you said, and can't wait to get a lathe and try it out. I can certainly save some coin on reamers going your route, and can't wait to try it out.