I've had a bit of reading time lately and re-discovered Ken
Waters' .375 Express. First done up by Ken in 1976, I'm
wondering if it pre-dates JDJ's .375 ("released" in 1978) or if they are
concurrent developments. I would like to know more about
the development of the .375 JDJ and I was wondering if any
forum participants had load data they would like to share.

I was overseas most of this time period (1975-1981), a
member of Sixgunner but remember very little about the
.375. While this is a classic cartridge for the Contender
pistol now, Ken used it in a rifle (and surprisingly
published ballistics for his are often a little slower than those published
for the JDJ in the pistol length barrels). I too am
interested in doing up a rifle, have been for some time, but
Ken's articles (2 that I've found) make me want to do it in
a repeater.

Has anyone used the .375 JDJ in a carbine format?

It appears that the expansion ratio is such that you don't lose
much going from Ken's 25 inch barrel to the short 14" barrels as
Ken got about 2200 fps and JD gets about 2000 fps with the same
bullet in the 25 and 14 inch barrels respectively.

Yes, I do have a project in mind. I'm not the first, but I've been thinking of taking a bodgered No. 4
action I have and building a .375 "Express". However the 2 cartridges are so similar that I could
chamber for the JDJ and probably save irritation in finding a chambering reamer.

Additionally this would be built as a "scout" with Ching Ring and Sling, William FPRS and Leupold 2.5 Scout scope.

[ 09-23-2002, 17:02: Message edited by: Hobie ]

Hobie, I will jump into this if no one else will. You will not be able to find a .375 JDJ reamer - only through SSK can you have something chambered ".375 JDJ". The JDJ series is proprietary to SSK. But any number of people can chamber a barrel to the same dimensions (.375X444), and provide dies. Not sure how the Waters version compared to JDs dimensions, but I am guessing it was very close.

BTW it is my understanding that Ken Waters version predated JDs for whatever that is worth - see the latest Hornaday reloading manual for written confirmation of this.

Read the latest Hodgdon powder reloading data manual under 375JDJ.....You will discover that 375 Express was here well before the JDJ.

JDJ is always the first to scream when some one "counterfeits" his cartridge, i.e. 374/444 Bellm. The kettle calling the pot black. I guess if you have enough money to buy a patent, you can claim anything.

[ 09-25-2002, 06:55: Message edited by: pahandgunhunter ]

Hobie
There is also a 30/444 in PO Ackleys Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders with a copyright date of 1966. It is identical to the 309JDJ. So if JDJ wants to talk about counterfeits, he needs to look in the mirror when he does.

Outback

[ 09-25-2002, 09:25: Message edited by: Outback ]

I was aware of the .375/.444, Mike Bellm's (and others) use of that name to skirt the patent issue, etc. I certainly did not expect the thread to take this direction. However..., what do you think, is it an effective cartridge? Have you used it?

Oh, and I've seen dimensions of the 2 and they are very close, JD's being just a hair longer in the body and shorter in the neck. So when I said I might chamber for the JDJ round, what I really meant is that I'd get that chambering regardless of what it was called or by whom the work was done. So... it might or might NOT be the "JDJ" round but it would be the .375 on the .444 case. Clear as mud, right?

[ 09-26-2002, 01:15: Message edited by: Hobie ]

I was aware of the .375/.444, Mike Bellm's (and others) use of that name to skirt the patent issue, etc. I certainly did not expect the thread to take this direction. However..., what do you think, is it an effective cartridge? Have you used it?

Hobie,
I don't have the 375, but I do have the 358JDJ in a rechambered 14" 35rem barrel and a custom 358x444 Dave Van Horn 20" carbine barrel. Both of them shoot great. IMHO, I think the choise of bullets is better then the 375 has to offer.
The 358s are a handfull and will do any job you need.

I don't think you'll find much if any performance difference between the two. I'd go for the one that you'll have the easiest time getting dies for, and having it chambered. I'd expect that to be the 375X444 or whatever you want to call it, and I'd also think you'd have the benefit of a larger base of published data.

I'm also keen on 35 bores, and you'd basically have 358 win performance, but at lower pressures.

Check this guy's cartridges!!!

378 GNR is the way to go!!!!!
I have one and love it!!!

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/index.html

Paul,

Thanks. That's what I'm thinking. Using it in a rifle, like Ken Waters, is what I want to do but in the version easiest to support.

Jules,

I appreciate the info on the .358s but (and now I'm going to open a can of worms) I just don't see that much improvement over the .35 Rem in the Contender. I already have a .35 Rem rifle (well, 2) and it just doesn't float my boat.

Who knows what I'll end up doing. I did want to make up a 6.5x.444 wildcat for my Contender but after I was what my 7-30 Waters was capable of, it kind of paled by comparison.

Whoops, I meant the Hodgdon manual.

OK guys, I am sure that JD doesn't claim to have invented anything, nor does he claim to have a "patent", he just objects to people using the JDJ name which is clearly his right. I am not a rabid fan of JDs, but think we should all be kind to everyone in this business, not just our favorites.

PAHandgunhunter, have you done any chronographing with the 378 GNR? How hard is brass to obtain and what length barrel do you have?

Thanks,

I rechambered a 14" hunter t/c 375 barrel has brake on it. This was done for $50.00 that right JUST $50.00 by Gary Reeder!! His dies are $95/100 and they are Redding! Brass is obtainable at Midway for $108.00 per hundred bought mine on sale this summer for $78.00 per hundred. I haven't chronoed any yet just sight-in and rock busting! Will do it this weekend for sure!!
Data 64 grains of IMR 4350 285 grain bullet 2060 fps. will work this one up. For what other companies want for a re-chamber (150) you can have your barrel and dies!!
Bill

Pahandgunhunter, keep us posted on your load development work. I met Gary at the NRA gun show in Kansas City last year and saw some of his black chrome work on his barrels if that is what it is called. He does beautiful work.