Hey guys I have an Encore that I have had for a few years now and I am thinking about buying a 15" 7-08 pistol barrel for it. Is this okay to do/

If it's a frame that was originally sold as a rifle, the ATF views putting a barrel less than 16" and/or overall length less than 26" (might be wrong on that one) as "making" a short-barreled rifle which is regulated under the NFA and subject to registration and a $200 tax.

Starting with a pistol frame and using that as the basis of converting to rifle format has always been okay. However, there is some indication lately that the ATF views that firearm now as a rifle and it may not be "remade" into a pistol without registration and the payment of the tax.

Even the first viewpoint is absurd to me from a utility and practical standpoint, but the second position is absolutely insane. But you'd have to already be under pretty close scrutiny for anyone to know that you put a rifle barrel/buttstock on a pistol frame and then changed it back at a later time. Even getting caught with a rifle frame having a pistol barrel/pistol grip on it would seem rather unlikely. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, though.

Of course, what you REALLY don't want to do is put a <16" barrel on it with the rifle buttstock. That configuration is not only illegal, it's VISIBLY illegal.

Hope that helps.

quote:

However, there is some indication lately that the ATF views that firearm now as a rifle and it may not be "remade" into a pistol without registration and the payment of the tax.

Not trying to start a battle here, but what indication? BATF before the E lost this battle in the case against TC years ago. I won't rule out that some idiot might charge someone and you have alengthy battle, but the legal decision has already been made.

You are positivitly correct in what you say about the frame regisitration however. And, I suspect a lot of Encores are registered as rifles vice pistols. As far as the BATF &E boys go, once a rifle always a rifle, just like once a machinegun always a machinegun.

No offense taken. I believe the specifics of the case years ago addressed the conversion of a Contender pistol to a carbine via the "carbine kit" (deemed legal, as you say), but did not specifically address the issue of converting it back.

Back in November, on a forum at leverguns.sixgunner.com, the following letter - purported to be from someone at the BATF - was posted.

{Letter quote begins}
From: Specht, Margaret D. [mailto:Margaret.D.Specht@usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:39 PM
To: [ME}
Cc: Fisher, Nena R.; Lambert, Marcia F.; Vines, Therese L.
Subject: RE: Recall: Thompson Center Encore/Contender Pistols

{OI},

If you look at the definition of "firearm" under the National Firearms Act (27 CFR 479.11), you see that for the purposes of the National Firearms Act, a firearm includes "... (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."

If you add a stock to the Thompson Contender or Encore, you would be making that pistol a rifle -- a legal rifle as the barrel would be 16"
as required and the overall length would be 26" as required. Note that in the definition of "firearm" under the NFA there is nothing about a weapon made from a pistol, just a weapon made from a rifle. Once you've made the Contender or Encore into a legal rifle, you cannot then make it into a pistol again without registration under the NFA because it would be considered a weapon made from a rifle. So, you can take the stock back off, but you would have to register the firearm as an NFA weapon in order to do that.

I checked with our Firearms Technology Branch in Washington, DC, to be sure I was giving you proper information, and they concurred with the above interpretation. If you would like to call me, you may. My cell phone number is 219-XXX-XXXX.

Margaret D. Specht
Industry Operations Investigator

{Letter quote ends}

I haven't been able to confirm this independently, plus I'm a little shy about just calling up the BATF. This could be nothing. But that's the "indication" I was talking about.

Here's a link to the thread there:

New ATF position?

When I first saw that thread, I thought it was made up. My paranoia is kicking in though, and now I'm not so sure.

Thanks Jon,

That is scarry! It sounds like they figure to attack TC again and use the OK, It's legal to make a rifle from a pistol but it is illegal to make a pistol from a rifle argument. It might be worth writing TC to see what they have pertaining to this without disturbing the alphabet boys. Then there's always the fact that "my TC is and has always been a pistol, I just bought that carbine kit (used) to convert it in case I ever wanted to." That in fact is exactly where I stand. A TC since 76 with 3 pistol barrels and a stock and carbine barrel I bought a couple of years ago to try it as a carbine, which I have never done.

John is 100% correct. This has been discussed on many handgun forums and the letter he cited was brought up there also. Stupid rule, but that's the way it is being interpretted.

Guess that gives me an excuse for another frame. One that resides as a pistol and one that resides as a carbine I searched the decision ('92) and read it and read the posts on some of the handgun boards. It is scary. Brings to mind that the same would apply to the little 22 that had a rifle barrel stock. I believe it was a Unique. There are a few others that would be considered also. I know that this is only supposition and I damn sure am not a lawyer, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express lat night. But I wonder if this couldn't bite the BATF later. I am thinking about the fact that if I buy a pistol Contender so listed on the yellow sheet and they consider it a pistol until I convert it to a rifle, at which time it becomes a rifle and I can't convert it back. What does this do to their "once a machinegun always a machine gun" bit? If you took an M14 and cut the selector mount off, it is no different than a semi auto M1A. So machinegun becomes semiauto with no ready way to convert back even. I don't plan to test it, but seems they are setting theirself up for a real goat ropping. I just don't want to be the test case on any of this. Anyone got a Contender frame (pistol) cheap?

Thaine -

I have also taken the approach of separate frames for separate uses. Any excuse will do.....

Unless you were under surveillance, sufficient to record frame serial numbers in whatever configuration, I really think the "converted it back to a handgun, therefore illegal" position would be impossible to enforce. The other scenario I can imagine is getting checked in the field with it configured as a rifle/carbine, and then later with the same frame as a handgun, but that also seems unlikely to me.

Still, I know TC CAN come up with the original configuration, given enough time. I have several Contender frames and I contacted TC with the serial numbers back in November. It took them 2 months to track down all the serial numbers, but they finally got them all. So I'm keeping the handgun frames as handguns, etc.

Really, I think the BATFE has MUCH better things to do with their time than worry about whether poor (literally) old (not quite so literally) JLarsson in Podunk, MT has {gasp!} put a carbine stock and barrel on his Contender handgun frame and then {horrors!} put a pistol grip and barrel on it again. Then again, this IS the gummint we're talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
John is 100% correct. This has been discussed on many handgun forums and the letter he cited was brought up there also. Stupid rule, but that's the way it is being interpretted.

Tembo -

Have you seen any independent confirmation of this letter? Seems like it was thrown out there and then nobody heard anything further about it at all. Would be good to know for sure. The thing I thought was most odd about it was that the BATFE (to my best understanding) doesn't give out rulings over the phone or (so I thought) email. I thought their policy was communication through the mail only. But if that has changed, that would be a good thing to know, also.

Thanks.

Jon, Unfortunately, the website I was going to cite Specialtypistols.com has a policy of not discussing this issue anymore. Apparently, it caused too many arguments, so they canned it. If I remember correctly, a member scanned an actual letter from the ATF to his query on this subject.

I know there was a letter floating around that addressed converting a rifle/carbine frame to pistol configuration. Here's one of those sites: ATF letter re Encore/Contender rifle frames.

I still haven't seen anything at all like what I posted above.

jon - you from Podunk ? been there ...ain't goin back. Seriously I agree. If the only thing the ATF can think of to do is chase down old farts like us with single shot/handgun/rifle/handrifles then they got way too much time on their hands. I have since decided to never worry about it again.

Hi Steve,

I shoulda' said "Two-Dot". We actually have one of those in Montana. Where I'm from is actually sorta' a suburb of Podunk.

I still haven't had nice enough weather to sight in and seriously accuracy test the .358 Bellm. Only three shots I have fired off the bench (in a serious hurry, 'cause cows were about to invade the shooting range ) were very promising. Somehow I'm going to have to figure out whether the 200 gr. Rem. Core-Lokt PSP's are going to open up at all reasonable ranges - at least out to 300 yards.

How's things in CO?

CO is great right now. My sisters place on the prairie is currently buried in snow but that has congregated mass numbers of jack rabbits. I spent two weekends on depredation duty. What a kick in the ass that is. A little bit messy getting prepared but the funs is all there. We shot literally hundreds of jacks last weekend, whilst stomping thru mud, cow manure and bunny turds...like nothing I've ever seen. Right now they are 'filling in' for my buried prairie dogs.

PS check it out.....tomorrow is you registration anniversary

LOL - what have I really accomplished here in a year's time?

Jack rabbit shooting sounds like good fun - are they at all edible?

Some places guys do eat jacks. Here in CO we consider them a nuisance and not edible. We were using .204s, .221 and my 6mm 30-30 AI all on Contender frames. After a center mass hit you would need forensic tools to locate most of the edible parts anyway.
Given their immediate location they left much to be desired in the way of tablefare regardless.

I contacted TC and they're aware of the alphabet 05 memo.

When I was a student at the Univ of AZ in wildlife mgt Lepus californica and Lepus alleni were hunted in by local residents who cooked them and made them into chili meat for burritos,tacos & chili .

quote:

Originally posted by JLarsson:
If it's a frame that was originally sold as a rifle, the ATF views putting a barrel less than 16" and/or overall length less than 26" (might be wrong on that one) as "making" a short-barreled rifle which is regulated under the NFA and subject to registration and a $200 tax.

Starting with a pistol frame and using that as the basis of converting to rifle format has always been okay.

I've never had anything to do with the Encores, but I have had many TC contenders with both pistol, and rifle barrels on the same frame. That is the way they were sold by TC. On the Encore, what is the difference in the actions for a pistol, and for a rifle? Are they sreial numbered differently? I know the old Remington bolt pistols were made on the same action as the mod 600 rem, but the pistol action's serial number was preceded by the letter "P" for pistol! Is that something like the Encore, that identifies it as a rifle, or pistol action?

I have a TC contender with a 411 JDJ barrel thet was a super 14" 41 mag bull barrel, re-chambered to 411 JDJ, and had a permintly mounted Muzzle break to make tthe barrel 16 1/2" so it is legal with a rifle stock, I also have a 10" 223 Bull barrel with pistol stocks for it! I was told when this pair was put together that the only restiction was you couldn't have the pistol barrel in a case with the action, and a rifle stock, even if the pistol stock was there as well. If it was a rifle, then eveything in the case must be rifle, and if a pistol, everything in the case must be pistol. You had to leave the other parts at home.

Both these barrels are set up for scopes, and Iron sights as well, though bot scopes are Redfield pistol scopes,the pistol scope is OK when used as a long barreled pistol,but I need a short eye relief scope for the rifle barrel when it is used as a rifle. Tell me have the rules changed in regard to the TC contender as well, or does this only apply to the Encore?

quote:

Originally posted by skb2706:
Some places guys do eat jacks. Here in CO we consider them a nuisance and not edible. We were using .204s, .221 and my 6mm 30-30 AI all on Contender frames. After a center mass hit you would need forensic tools to locate most of the edible parts anyway.
Given their immediate location they left much to be desired in the way of tablefare regardless.

Son you are missing the best meat to be found in the wild, if you're not eating jackrabbits!

I only use the hind quarters or HAMS! Slow grill/smoke these in one piece, over mesquite, with indirrect heat. They are about the same size as a pork chop, and cook in the same length of time. I wouldn't trade one Jackrabbit ham for three dozen cottontails, or tame rabbits! Shoot the jacks in the shoulders, there's no meat there anyway, and the hams can be simply cut away like frog legs, seperated, and cooked.
UMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM