I just ordered a T/C Custom Shop .30-30 Contender 20" carbine (I know this is a PISTOL board, but bear with me) with a stainless complexion. I have loaded for the venerable .30-30 in a Win M94 and a 10" T/C Contender. The 10" T/C (old production) was the most frustrating T/C barrel I had ever experienced and I dumped it.

Anyway, I guess I have several different question/issues to discuss:

1. Curious load data in the Sierra Handgun Manual. Like all good reloaders, I have quite a few manuals, but I've never seen this before. Sierra lists data for 10" and 14" barrels. Commonly, the max load for the 14" barrel is higher than the 10". The 14" max load is never lower than the 10" barrel. Now this could just be differences in the test barrels, right? My thinking is that the max pressure has got be be within first few inches, so why does a longer barrel have a higher max load. Makes no sense to me.

2. Lever gun loads vs. T/C loads. The max pressure for the M94 (SAAMI) is 36k CUP. The maximum pressure for the .30-30 case in the T/C Contender is around 45k PSI (per Mike Bellm's website.) I know there is no exact or consistent conversion between these two units, but me thinks that 45k PSI is a bit higher than 36k CUP. I presume this means that I can theoretically load the T/C higher than the M94 data.

3. Using 375 Win brass. I know that 375 brass is thicker and can be used to form various .30-30 based cases. What is the likelihood that I would have to turn necks on a Custom Shop barrel? Mike says 375 cases can usually be loaded around 48k PSI in the Contender. I was trying to figure out the mechanics here. First, I thought the thinner .30-30 cases would expand easier and grip the chamber walls sooner than the thicker 375 cases. But what I infer that the primary concern here is the thickness at the case web. Both cases grip the chamber walls equally? The 375 case stretches less and produces less back thrust at a given chamber pressure, right? But the drawback is that the 375 has less internal volume, therefore, will reach max pressure sooner than the .30-30. Should I use thin .30-30 brass or thick .375 brass. My goal is to push 150 grains at 2,500 fps, or will I have to settle for 2,400?

~~~ Lars ~~~

Lars

Here is some free advice.....it's guaranteed to be worth the price of admission.

I've have played around with the 30-30 in a couple of bolt guns (Remington 788 and Savage 340).....and the best advice I ever got was "don't try to make it a 308"! In other words, a 30-30 is a 30-30, it's not a 300 Savage or a 308, it never will be, and you can't make it one.

Most 30-30 load data shows the 150 grain bullet topping out at about 2400 fps in a 24" barrel.......you are asking for another 100fps with 4" less barrel length....

Try this, plug your data into a ballistics program and see how little difference 100 fps makes in the trajectory and energy of your bullet....then decide if it's worth all the trouble of pushing it that hard......if it is, then send the barrel out and have it rechambered to 300 Savage, 308 Bellm, 309 JDJ or something that produces the velocity you want while staying within it's design limitations.....

GonHuntin - you're advice was worth more than 1,000x what I paid for it

The best published data for the 150 gr was Hodgdon's on-line - 2,450 with RL15 in a 24". I've got (or had) .308, .30-06, .300 Win, .30 Gibbs. I know there are some limitations here. Guess I was being optimistic

I did play around with the ballistics computer some. I was trying to stay at, or above 2,000 at 200 yds as I was thinking about partitions. Once you get below 1,900-2,000, expansion can be an issue. I thought about rechambering to the Bellm - a good concept. I will give the .30-30 a try first. BTW - how do you rechamber to 300 Savage? Aren't you left with some of the .30-30 rim?

Lars

If you found reloader 15 data on Hodgdons website......well, you have better eyes than I do!

Regarding the rim cut......it doesn't hurt a thing, in fact, some people have the rim cut done on barrels so they can use rimmed &/or rimless cases in the same chamber......

What are you planning to shoot with your 30-30 that would require a Partition bullet?

My brother, dad and I all started out with 30-30 barrels on our contenders, the longest deer kill so far with the 30-30 was slightly over 200 yards. We all use the same load, 30 grains of IMR4198 pushing a Hornady 130 grain SSP bullet......works great for deer and I'm sure it would also do the trick on hogs....

Lars G,
I use a 14" 30-30 for deer huinting. With the single shot 120-130 gr bullets I'm not afraid to shoot a deer out to 150 yds. I also use cast bullets in the 140-170 gr weight range and they will also kill any derr I want out to about 150 yds also.
My 300 sav barrel started life as a 32 mag or 32/20. I use cast bullets only in it.
Orygun

Lars,
In regard to:

"BTW - how do you rechamber to 300 Savage? Aren't you left with some of the .30-30 rim? "

As GonHuntin pointed out, the rim counterbore is not a problem at all. He is absolutely correct in his assessment of the counterbore.

However, rechambering to .300 Savage is not an option since the existing .30/30 chamber is longer than the .300 Savage.

Even the .307 Win. case is a bit short of .30/30 length.... 2.025" v. 2.039." Not much of a difference, but to me the real problem is that the factory throat is not cut out.

In the case of more recent factory .30/30 barrels, as Don Shearer can attest, the factory chambers are .050" longer in the neck area than the cases! Perhaps he still has the hard numbers with the actual measurements he has taken from the end of the barrel to the forward end of the chamber neck.

The above reasons are why the .308 Bellm is left with a 2.200" overall length. The resulting chamber produces a new throat aligned with the bore and gets rid of the factory work.

Another point, you are correct that the .30/30 can be loaded hotter than the books say, but SAAMI standards are somewhere around the 38,000 psi mark..... probably c.u.p. rather than psi.... I don't have any books handy to verify which.

What you may have been referring to is my comments that data in some older books especially appear to be in the 45,000 psi range for the Herrett rounds, based on .30/30 brass.

Thin v. thick brass is in regard to how much of the pressure load the brass case will stand before it stretches back. How quickly or readily it expands to grip the chamber is not the issue in this regard, but rather how strong the case is.

The web areas of .375 Win. cases are only about .007" thicker than standard .30/30s, but this .007" DOES make a difference. It is apparently the reason why the 48,000 psi (+/-) is viable in the Contender.

Yes, you can stoke up the .30/30, but as GonHuntin stressed, it should never be made to imitate a .300 Savage or .308 Win.

The real travesty is that unless the powers that be at TC have changed the specs for their .30/30 chambers, you will get a chamber with no throat, and from many past experiences, the accuracy will not likely be too impressive and certainly not consistent with what you are paying for and expect...."Custom." This does not even come up to amateur butcher shop work.

If in fact you do get a barrel with a throat in it, I would like to know! If you don't know the difference, read "Chamber Throats 101" and "What a Throat Is" on my www.bellmtcs.com website, if you haven't already.

I'll be quite curious to know what you get from TC.

Mike

Back to GonHuntin - Geeez, didn't you know that all data is interchangable? (joking, of course , I meant Alliant!)

Maybe the partition is not the "ideal" bullet in this application, especially since Sitka Blacktails are on the menu. This is supposed to be a lightweight carbine with a youth stock for my daughter to learn shootin' with. She says she wants to go huntin' with me which is a good sign. The boy got his first centerfire rile last year - a Ruger MKII SS .308 compact. In fact, he used the Hornady 130 gr SSP (loaded to 2,150 fps) you spoke of to take his first deer last year at age 11.

I've just always used the heaviest partitions I can in my bigger rifles (.30, .338 & 375 caliber.) They are "my" all-around bullet cuz you just never know when ole Mr. Brownie will want a piece of you or your kill.

I've got plenty of other appropriate bullets to try: 150 gr B-tips, Rem PSPCL's, Hornaday SP's and 130 gr Speer FP's, Hornaday SSP's and the 135 gr Sierra SSP. I do load for a 14" .30 Herret so I have plently of "lower speed" bullets to work with. I think the kids realistic maximum range is more like 100 yds, anyway.

Mike, I'm honored that you replied. I have your Website bookmarked and I've read a lot of your articles. A very informative site for sure! The 308 Bellm is a distinct possibility. It took me several times to figure out that the data you post is for a Super 14" barrel, so it would meet my velocity goal in a 20" carbine.

On the throating - I've read all your articles on the matter. I can't figure T/C out. On my .30 Herret, it is impossible to find the lands with a 150 gr bullet, but you say there's no throat on a .30-30? Since this will be a year 2003 model, I'm hoping for the best. What has not been explained to me is, if you have an off-center chamber, how the hell to you center it back up? Every time I've run a drill bit thru an existing hole, it tends to self-center on the existing hole. You must have one hell of a rigid tool setup there (or else you've been taking some of those little blue pills!!!

One last thing: I heard SS barrels are harder to rechamber than chrome-moly and some guys won't touch a SS rechamber job. Any truth to that?

[ 04-18-2003, 22:33: Message edited by: Lars G ]