Hi all,
I owned a 6.5 mini-dreadnought a few years back and had a terrible experience with it. Some of the problems I had included not always getting the barrel to lock up on my Encore (even though I was full length resizing), not able to achieve the advertised velocity (about 150fps less at best), mediocre accuracy (about 1.25 but always with flyers). I sold the barrel. Bought a 6.5 jdj for my contender and life became good again. BUT, I have the bug again for a higher performing 6.5 and am thinking about trying another 6.5 mini-dreadnought. I really believe that my original barrel and/or dies were the problem. So my question is do any of you own or owned a 6.5 mini-dreadnought and what kind of performance are you getting?
Some of you will probably suggest a different 6.5, such as a .260, 6.5-284 etc. well I have been a handgun only hunter for about 18 years and like all of you I am opinionated as heck when it comes to calibers. I like wildcats just because I do I really would like to hear from anyone with any real knowledge on the 6.5 mini-dreadnought so please reply.
Thanks

I own a 6.5 JDJ, a 338 JDJ No 2, and a 6.5 Minidreadnaught and have been well satisfied with it. It has become my fovorite handgun round.

I experienced some hard closing problems early on but that was a result of faulty die adjustment. The shoulder needed to be set back a little more. No more problems have been encountered after correcting that problem.

I believe that JD's velocity figgures are a little optomistic. Velocity is like sex appeal, it sells products. Max loads in my barrel were hot. Best accuracy in my barrel, considerably under an inch, was attained with loads of 1 to 2 grains under max, which still produces plenty of velocity. 6.5 bullets are so long and streamlined that they loose velocity very slowly, so this is still a 300 yard gun at 200 FPS under what JD says it will do.

I Like the rimmed cases in break action pistols and the bullistics that the Dreadnaught can produce are squarely right between the 260 Rem and the 6.5 x 284, but you have the advantages of having a rimmed case to use. Not a bad deal in my view, and well worth the extra trouble it takes to fireform the cases.

There are a couple of things you should know about this cartridge before you invest. It is throated for the 140 gr. bullets. Almost everyone who goes to this case is looking for more vilocity with the 120's and 125 gr. bullets, which I believe is a mistake. Because of the long throat, the Dreadbaught probably will not deliver the best accuracy with the lighter bullets.

People also tend to use powders that are faster than optimum with this cartridge. Stay with 129 gr. and heavier slugs, and don't go faster than 4350 powder unless you are shooting bullets lighter than the 120s.

My barrel was shortened to 13 inches to mount a JP Howetizer Break on it. Even so, I get 2533 FPS with 140 gr. Nosler Partitions and 50.0 gr. of VV 560 powder, Rem cases and WLR primers. That's 2 gr. below JD's Max load. Sighted in 6 inches high at 100 yards, it will be 7 inches high at 200 yards and dead on at 300 yards.

125 NP produced 2652 with 52 gr. of the same powder, while a 140 gr. bullet produced 2638 with the same charge but was too hot and the accuracy wasn't there. Generally, 2000 FPS is required to ensure expansion with partitions, and the faster lighter bullet loads will not gain much at long ranges on the 140s because they slow down faster and don't buck the wind as well.

Hornady's 140 gr. SST has a BC of .520 in 6.5, as compared with the Partition's .490. It will also expand considerably below 2000 FPS. The SST may be a better deer bullet but the 140 partition would be better for elk and up type critters.

A great close to moderate range pig load would be Sierra's 160 gr. Pro Hunter. This was determined by shooting gallon milk jugs filled with water at 25 yards, this bullet had the greatest expansion and weight retention at that range, with penitration equal to the 140 gr. partition - into the 6th water filled jug.

The SST penetrated into the 5th jug but retained the least weight. The partition penetrated as deeply as the 160 but lost the front core completely. At longer ranges and less velocity, it would hold together much better and penetrate more deeply.

Other useful powders that I have not tried would include Reloader 22, 4831 and H1000 as well as 7828 and other manufacturer's variants on these powders. H414 didn't work out too well for me in this cartridge. I hope that this is of some use and help to you, Rusty.

Rusty,
Thanks so much for your very detailed reply, it is much appreciated.
When I had my original barrel back in 1999 I worked with both 4350 and vv 560 and had similar results. When I loaded 52gr. of vv560 with Norma brass and Federal Gold Match primers with a Sierra 120spt I was able to get 2625 but encountered poor accuracy. Switching to the 140 gr Hornady with 50 gr. of vv560 and WW brass I averaged 2590fps and better grouping.
So as you pointed out not that much difference in velocity gain by using the 120's.
I tried different seating depths but just couldn't seem to find the sweet spot that would give me sub inch 5 shot groups at 100yrds. My best goups were with Nosler balistic tips 120 grain at 1.25" with 3 of those shots usually going inside .5 inch. Maybe I was too focused on using the 120 grain bullets. As you pointed out the 140's seem to shoot better for you. Are you loaded out to the lands with the 140's, or just off the lands?
I still think there was a problem with the barrel, or possibly the dies. I had my dies adjusted all the way down for full length sizing and then some to remove all slop from the press. But I still encountered several shell out of each group of 20 that would not close. The person I sold the barrel and dies to also had the same problems.
I was very glad to here that you had good luck with yours. I will probably give it another try. Thanks again for your very informative reply.

dougm58,
Nothing wrong with wildcats.
Another option could be a 6.5 Hustler. Basically a 444 Marlin case necked down and improved. You get the benefit of a rim also. performance wise it should run close to a 6.5-284, but should be a little behind it.
A god friend of mine just recieved a 6.5 Hustler that has a 1-8 twist 5c Broughton barrel Encore barrel. He is breaking the barrel in presently, and it will be used for hunting, varminting and 1000 yard shooting.
If you are wanting to use 120-130 grain bullets and lighter you could have it throated shorter and even go with a 1-9 twist which would give you a tad more in the MV department with the lighter bullets than the 1-8 twist would with all else being equal.
I really like the 6.5 caliber

Ernie: The Dreadnaught is based on a 220 Swift case, maximised with a 60 degree shoulder, so it is pretty close to the 6.5 x 57R that you are shooting in your Thor. How are things going with the Thor? What kinds of velocities are you getting with 120s, 129 -130s and 140s?

For anyone contemplating a new purchase, the Thor would be worth looking into...Rusty.

Dougm58: The Norma brass I had was thicker and had less volume than either Rem or Wenchester brass. I had to back off more and the hard colseing came with the softer Norma brass.

My loads were hunting loads, so they were not that close to the lands. The reason I went to 160s was for case forming loads. I was having trouble getting fully formed cases on the first firing. Seated into the lands for case forming, there wasn't much bullet left in the necks of my cases. I read somewhere that a 95 percent of max is recomended for fire forming the 60 degree cases. Going to the 160s fully formed the cases on the first firing, but my initial loads were too hot as I had no starting load data and guestimating from how much more powder the Dreadnaught uses than 260 data wasn't accurate enough for me.

I believe that JD's load data was all done with 140s and he added the 120s to the same charges thinking that anything safe with 140s would also be safe with 120s. It is highly unusual to go up 20 grains in bullet weight with out a powder charge reduction.

I do not know if there are all that many people out there who have Dreadnaughts. I have seen other people request information on them on seberal boards and the responce has always been very little. As a matter of fact, I regerstered on this form so that I could respond to your request.

The one thing that I have been unhappy about with my gun has nothing to do with the chambering or JD's work. I bought the barrel through SSK and had the rest of the gun set up through E. Arther Brown Company, Inc. through my FFL agent. When I sent them the barrel, I included instructions that if the break required shortening the barrel I did not want the break installed. The barrel is 15" long over all with the break, but the gun ballances and habdles so well that I didn't complain, but I have always wondered how much velocity I lost with the shorter barrel. From what you have told me not too much.

The gun is set up with the Encore rifle forend, which I really like. With a Harris bipod on it, you slife your hand forward to the bipod base and lock your elbow, then pull back with your trigger hand. The sight picture in the 3 x 12 Burris scope is always perfect and the gun is surprisingly steady. Everyone who has handled it has commented on how easily it handles and manny believe it to be lighter than their Contenders, which isn't the case at all.

Incase you want to take a look, http://www.eabco.com They have an extensive list of chamberings from the 6.5 TCU through the 264 Win Mag in 6.5, or you could probably have JD set you up for the Encore Forend for an additional cost...Rusty.

For anyone interested: http://www.bellmtcs.com is a sight with a wealth of information on Contenders and Encores and related subjects of interest. Mike does custom chambering and barrel work. He has an article on adjusting dies that takes all the guess work out of the process. It is simple and requires no gauges to employ.

If you hold a break action up to the light, you will notice light coming through the action between the barrel and the standing breach. A properly sized case should fill that void but not exert any pressure on the standing breach. If it does, lock up can become problematic and accuracy will suffer. If the case is below the back of the chamber with a rimless case, or the rim is not allowing the shoulder to get close to the chamber in front, accuracy and head space problems will also develop. I'll let you read Mike's simple explainations and his process for solving all of these problems...Rust

Another 6.5 to consider is 6.5JDJ#2(aka basically a 6.5 Super Bower). In a Contender using a 307Win case and low side of 260Rem book loads it's safe in a Contender. I imagine in an Encore you can really crank it up more. I don't know fps(havn't tried yet) but I load 42gr of IMR4350 behind a 120gr bullet and shells just drop out after firing. It'll shoot moa out of a 14" SS Shilen SSK barrel. Making cases are easy and not everybody has heard of one. Neat looking cartridge.

Yeah, the Thor is a pretty cool SP. I'm really looking forward to hunting with it this year.
So far I have only shot 142 SMK's through it--and they shoot real good out to 600 yards to date.
What would really be cool in a 15-16 inch Sp would be to take the 6.5x57R RWS brass (what I use) and improve it.
Basically a 260 AAR with a rim
Or another way of saying it is a 257 Rob AI necked up to 6.5 with a Rim.
I'm talking Encore action or other strong actions (Thor, MOA, etc), not Contender here.

Ernie, sounds like the 6.5x57R produces similar velocities as the 6.5 mini-Dreadnought BUT without having to fireform cases. The 6.5x444 sounds like a screamer too. I wonder what the recoil would be like with 140's? I ran into someone who had a xp built in 6.5x284 and although they got very high velocities they also reported pretty stiff recoil. Could you tell me where your buddy got the 6.5 Hustler? Did he get any basic loading info. with it? I have a .375jdj so have plenty of 444 Marlin unformed cases about. Not sure about the recoil, even with a 140 gr. bullet that much powder has to bite a little.
I have alot of big boomers, what I am lusting for currently is a 6.5 that will send 140's at 2500-2600fps but be easily controllable. Sounds like the 6.5x57R, or 6.5 mini-D might fill the bill. I am not opposed to muzzle breaks, and will probably add one to eliminate muzzle jump etc. I was even thinking about sending the barrel to Christianson arms to have it carbon-fiberized to lighten it up. As I remember from my last Encore they don't balance as nice as the Contender and are a bit heavier. To me the Encore just isn't as pleasent to carry and shoot as my old Contender. If I don't have it carbon-fibered I will at least have it fluted, or severly tapered.
This has been a really good thread fellas, thanks again for all your input.

Marc Sheehan is the guy that has the 6.5 Hustler. I believe it is a stubbed barrel. David White did the smithing on it.
Marc's Phone number is:
402-331-6628
Tell him Ernie gave you his contact info. We are friends. He can also help you with a very neat & useful rest system if you are interested.
Marc is Don Bowers protege.

Dougm58: Sinse you already have a 375 JDJ, I don't think that you would find the recoil objectional with 140s in a 6.5 anything chambered in 6.5. I had an opportunity to shoot a 375 JDJ and a 45-70 at the same range session a few years back and the 375 was pleasent compared to the 45-70. That experience was what motivated me to get the 338 JDJ No 2, which I do not particularly nejoy shooting more than 10 or 15 times at a sitting, and that is a Magnaported barrel.

Another possibility you might consider is JDJ's 6.5 x 270; it is the fastest of his 6.5s. It gets the minimum case taper and the 60 degree shoulder of the Magnum Beaters. Fire form loads consist of 58 grains of H4831 powder and 140 grain bullet of your choice. A max load would be 58 grains of H4831 with a 140 grain Sierra boattail ahead of it at 2825 FPS. The tester stated that the 129 hornadys produced one ragged hole groups, with the 120 BTs producing 3/4 inch groups over 57 grains of H4831. The only down sides that I can see to this chambering would be increased powder consumption and added recoil, as well as not having a rim on the case to work with, but it is something for you to think about in considering a new barrel...Rusty.

Ernie,
Thanks for the info on the 6.5 Hustler.

Rusty,
I have a 45-70 as well and "I feel your pain" Honestly though both my .375jdj, and 45-70 wear JD's arrester brakes which keep muzzle rise to a minimum. But the recoil is directed straight back so the palm of your hand still takes a beating especially when shooting at the bench. I hunt deer with my .375 so load the Hornady 220 grain soft point at about 1900+ fps. Not a max load but accurate and deadly. Recoil is manageable. The 45-70 with 300 gr bullets feels worse to me due to the added mass of the heavier bullet. I don't like shooting it nearly as well. The 6.5 is really just fun to shoot. It gives fantastic accuracy and mild recoil. Thanks for the info on the 6.5x270 that is the first I had heard of it. So it's based on a 270 Winchester case with the taper removed and the shoulder set at 60 degrees. Sounds like it performs the way JD said his Mini-Dreadnought would. JD and I had a conversation about what I thought was a gross exageration of the velocities attainable from the Mini-dreadnought vs. what he published. Oh well I guess they call that marketing! As you say the recoil may be at the upper limit of fun to shoot! It probably would not be as bad as a 6.5x284, or 6.5x06. I will have to call SSK and try to get more info on it. Thanks once again for the help

Dougm58: I would not say that JDJ is telling people things that are not true. There are fast barrels and slow barrels, and that's not his fault. You pay your money and take your chances.

Where I believe there may be some exagerating going on is in giving people the impression that every barrel attains those speeds at high accuracy levels, and that your frame will last for ever pushing the kind of pressures it takes to get those velocities.

I think that the 6.5 x 57R or the Dreadnaught would do all you can reasonbly expect a hand gun to do with tollerable recoil levels.

Some people think that the JP Howitzer Break is really ugly, but it makes a huge difference in recoil. The person who developed it usde to demonstrate it by shooting a 3006 with 180 gr max loads with the butt of the rifle resting on the bridge of his nose. Instead of preventing muzzle jump and directing the recoil straight back into your hand, the Howitzer actually pulls the barrel down and forward. In my gun, the 140s had noticebly less recoil than the 120s and recoils less than the 6.5 JDJ. It's really fun to shoot, but loud. Good luck in getting what you want. And, let us know how it works out...Rusty.

Rusy,
You are probably right about either the 6.5x57R, or the Mini-D being being at the limit of tollerable recoil levels. They are both more than capable of taking deer size game which is probably all I would use them for anyway. Then again my 6.5 JDJ is more than adequate for deer out to about 250 yards. I also believe that the purpose of the larger cases are not to shoot light bullets faster, but rather to shoot heavier bullets fast. I am leaning towards the 6.5x270. Recoil will move from the fun to shoot to the manageable/tolerable side but it should give me the velocity levels I am looking for using the heavier 130, 140, 160 grain bullets.
As for JD let me just say that I do think SSK is at the forefront of cartridge design when it comes to single shot pistols. I own three of their barrels and am planning on buying this fourth one so I do believe in their work. However, I do expect to receive what I have paid for. Although some barrels may have smoother bores that equate to slightly higher velocities, those differences should be relatively small. In the case of the Mini-D JD states on his web site "easily achieves 2900fps with 120 grain bullets" This is just not true. He is off by about 200fps.
I tried for a year with most every powder he listed and three different makes of brass, and several different bullets. On one of the loadings listed by SSK you can't even get all the powder into the case! JD did admit to me that more testing was needed. JD also said that the game would not know the difference between the velocity I was able to get and what he advertised. That is a true statement, but not the point. It's a question of ethics. I am able to attain the velocities listed on the SSK provided data sheets for my other three barrels, so why not the Mini-D? I think he rushed the Mini-D to market. IMHO SSK should do more testing and publish revised velocities. It is still a very fast 6.5 and probably all that anyone really needs. Oh yea and your muzzle break is ugly! just kidding.
It sounds like it performs very well, I always wondered if that style really worked and now I know! I have a Holland built muzzle break on my 6mmBR. It has baffles in it that pull the gun forward. I put it on the gun so that I could mount a rifle scope to it and not bump my eye. It works! I originally had a Burris 3-12 pistol scope on it but it was real hard to see the groundhog at 300 yards sitting with just a bipod for support. It was kinda like "now you see it, now you don't" if you know what I mean. The pistol scope with its small field of view would have worked from a steady prone position, or a bench but it was really hard just sitting. The rifle scope gives me a much better field of view. I am closer to the pistol so it helps me keep everything steadier. Anyway I will let everyone know if I get the 6.5x270 and what kind of performance I am getting from it.

Dougm58 and all: The following information was taken from Hodgdon's 2004 Annual Manual, which is published in magazine format from the publishers of Gun Guide. It is an interesting manual as there is information available on the same loads in both rifle and handgun formats for a number of cartridges.

In 243, the highest velocity with a 100 gr bullet for a 15" barrel was 2571, which delivered 429 more fps in a 24" rifle barrel.

Nothing comparable was listed in 6.5, but we will get back to the 6.5s at the end with a different but valid comparison.

In 270, the highest velocity for a 140 gr bullet out of a 15" barrel was 2694, at 50,800 CUP; nine inches more barrel delivered 285 additional fps with the same load.

In 308, the highest velocity with a 165 gr bullet out of a 15" barrel was 2576, at 50,500 CUP. Nine additional inches gave 197 additional fps.

In 3006, the highest velocity with 165 gr bullet in a 15" barrel was 2605, at 49,700 CUP. Nine additional inches gave 272 additional fps.

All of the above loads used the same twist rates and powder charges and identical bullets, with the same pressure readings in each caliber; these are loads as identical as it is possible to make them in each caliber.

With the 6.5s it will be a rifle comparison because no comparible hanguns were tested, but the information is interesting and informative, especily in light of JDJ's velocity claims made for his cartridges. Again all the velocities are the highest listed in each cartridge for the 140 gr bullets loaded in that catagory. The twist rates are identical (1:9) for all the barrels, and all the barrels are 24" except for the 6.5 Rem Mag, which had a 26" barrel.

260 Rem, 140 Nos Part, H1000, 50.5 = 2730, 57,000 psi.

6.5 x 284, 140 Spr Gs-sp, H1000, 53.5 = 2694, no psi or Cup given for this load.

6.5 Rem Mag, 140 Nos Part, H4831, 54.o = 2943 out of a 26" barrel at 51,400 CUP.

6.5-06, 140 Spr Gs-sp, H1000, 53.5 = 2761 at 62,600 psi.

From the above it seems pretty obvious that claiming 2900 for 120s and 2700 for 140s out of 15" barrels is not likely at safe pressures even with the increased powder capacities that minimum taper and 60 degree shoulders allows in a Dreadnaught or even an improved 270 or an 3006 case, especially when the claims exceed what comparable cases are doing in 24" barrels...Rusty.

I said that there was no load to compare in the Hodgdon manual in the 6.5 catagory, but I was wrong. The 6.5 Br is included in both the rifle and pistol data sections. The reason I didn't look at it was because I thought that such a small case couldn't develop enough velocity to be interesting with 140 gr bullets. I was wrong again.

H 4895 powder proved to develop the most velocity in this small case with 120 and 140 grain bullets. Being so efficient, the Br case also developed the smallest differential between rifle and pistol length barrels - 117 fps with the 120s and 113 fps with the 140 gr bullets. Top speed in the 15" barrel for 120 and 140 gr bullets respectively was 2507 and 2308 fps with 31.0 and 30.0 grains of H 4895 out of a 1 in 8 twist barrel.

If all you are going to hunt is deer, the 6.5 Br with 120 Nosler Ballistic Tips would be more than adequate and highly accurate. Even with the 140s you would not be giving up too much if nonpremium bullets were used. 30 grains of powder is not very much to burn to get better than 2300 fps with a 140 grain bullet. Especially considering that it takes nearly 20 more grains of powder to get you 200 more fps with the Dreadnaught.

Dougm58, I would look at the 6.5 x 270 and its claimed velocities with a healthy dose of skeptisim. I don't think that it is going to live up to what JD is claiming for it either. However, one advantage to going to a larger case is that if you do not get the accuracy you are looking for at max loads, you can drop the velocity down to where the sweet spot is and still have enough remaining velocity to get the job done. That isn't always the situation with smaller cases...Rusty.

One thought on the 6.5-284. I know from visiting with several in the industry that the majority of data from the loading manuals (for in the Hodgdon's data) is light. There is a case capacity difference between the 260 and 6.5-284 that is about the same as the 308 & 30-06.
Also from knowing a fairly good number of guys who use the 6.5-284 for 1k shooting that the data is light. Two of the reason is that #1 the throats were short throated and #2 they set psi or cup less than the 260. Most use H-4350 with a 140 class bullet or a powder that is very similar in burn rate.
Several things determine the realistic possibilities of a given cartridge:
strength of the action:
barrel (length, twist, width & depth of rifling)
match of chamber and dies to brass
throat length for the primary bullet to be used
choosing the best powder suited for the caliber, bullet weight, etc.
In some actions just the way the chamber is finished can make a difference.
Length of throat for a given bullet weight/style chosen.
Usually say in a TC product you will get faster MV's say with a Shilen barrel than a TC barrel in the same cartridge with length and twist being the same. Why? Internals of the barrels are diffferent.
You can realistically get around 2750 fps safely with a 140 class bullet in most barrels that has a 16-17 inch barrel in a XP if it is set-up right.
At least with the high pressure cartridges you can usually see about 40 fps per inch of barrel. Sometimes it will be more other times it will be less.
Another rule of thumb that I go by is typically a 15-16 inch 6.5-284 will have the same performance (or close to it) as a 260 rem does in a rifle length barrel. Same basically can be said about the 30-06 in a SP compared to the 308 in a rifle.
This topic has been full of good discussion.
Another thing that I forgot to mention that determines MV's either in SP's or rifles is the strength/design and hardness of the brass. If your brass is the softest a gun that is exactly like yours in every way with the brass that is the harder will safely out-run your gun.
What do they say about computers? "You are only fast as your slowest component."

I love the 6.5's.
I have a 14 inch 260 Rem in the MOA Maximum.
14 inch 6.5x57R in the Thor.
17 inch 6.5-284 XP-100
17 inch 6.5-284 in the MOA Maximum

The only 6.5's that I am currently intersted in is a fast twist (6.5 - 7) 6.5WSM that will shoot custom ULD bullets (high BC's) over 150 grains and a 1-8 twist 6.5x50R Bellm in a Contender barrel, which should SAFELY outrun ANY cartridge in the Contender, including JD's or Bowers wildcats.

Oops, I forgot to mention that the hardest brass that can be used for the 6.5-284 is the 284 Win brass (yes, you have to neck it down). I use this brass in my David White built 6mm-284 (So fast & so accurate!).
In my 6.5-284 SP's I use Lapua brass which is almost as hard as Winchester, but in every other way is better.
I used to have a 284 Win XP too, and i pushed a 140 NBT @ 2750 fps from the muzzle from a 15.75 inch Shilen barrel.

FWIW--when you use a longer case like the 06 compared to a shorter case like the 308 or the 284 you in essence lose actual rifling due to the fact that the case it self is longer and the chamber cuts further into the rifling. Not a whole lot, but some.

Let me also add that Mike Bellm is one of the most helpful people I have ever known when it comes to TC's. He won't just sell you something he will unselfishly help you understand how it works or why it doesn't work.
JD has also been informational to me, but in TC's none has been better than Mike.

Rusty,
I was thinking the same thing about not running out of case capacity/over pressure with the larger 270 maximized case, and that I could throtle back alittle for accuracy while still attaining a higher velocity(2700-2750 range).
I contacted SSK and they replied in an email that velocities were 2800 for 130 grain, and 2700 for 150 grain. I couldn't find any 150 grain jacketed bullets listed anywhere so perhaps the 150 refers to a cast bullet. Given the case capacity those numbers may be pretty close to attainable. That would put the 140 grain pill at about 2700ish. As Ernie pointed out 2750 is about what one can expect from the 6.5x284. The maximized case of the 270 win. that JD is using would allow alittle more capacity over the .284. If you used a powder that had a burn rate/ pressure curve so as to max out appropriately for a 15 inch barrel you just might get lucky. What I am saying is that the extra capacity might allow a slighly slower powder which would stretch out the pressure curve a bit and perhaps better match the barrel length. Of course I could just be babbling since I am by no means a ballistic expert!
Ernie,
That information was great about your experience with the 6.5x284. I have always been curious about that caliber when used in a SP. I met someone else a few years back on one of the forums who had a 6.5x284 in an XP I think. As I remember he was getting about what you are out of it. He did tell me that the recoil was rather uncompfortable. I know it all depends on the weight of the gun, style of shooting, grip etc. but how would you compare the recoil of your 6.5x284 to some of the other calibers that you shoot?
FYI I checked with Christianson Arms about having an Encore barrel carbon wrapped. The cost is $599 same as for a rifle. I guess the money is in the set up not the material. That's a bit steep so I think I will go for fluting. It may not take out as much weight but it will help a bit. I might break down and after Xmas send my 6.5JDJ barrel to them. Since it has very little recoil removing a .5-.75 pound of weight won't affect shootablity. It should improve balance, portability, and of course it looks real cool

Doug,
my 6mm-284 shooting 115 Tubb bullets does not have a brake and does not need one. It does have a barrel that is just under 18 inches (set-up for LR hunting, shooting and 1k competitions. Taper is what I would call a heavy sporter. MV's currently is in the 2740 FPS (with more devlopment to be done).



If I was going to build a 6.5 SP for hunting (how far did you say you wanted to go?), I would get one of the orginal single shot XP's and put a H-S or McMillan center-grip stock on it with a medium tapered sporter barrel in the 16 inch range. Have the smith (I have several proven ones in mind--who do their own work!) put on a detachable Vais brake that matches the contour of the barrel. Also have the smith make a thread protector so if you decide to not use the brake for hunting your threads and crown is well protected. This will give you the best of both worlds. I also have a 7.82 Patriot XP with a light weight sporter barrel (has a Vais Brake) and it is light weight and manageable in recoil.
The pic below is three shots on a small cow elk @ 416 yards. 3-shot hide group was under 3 inches and this field shooting prone with a Harris Bi-Pod.

A XP will give you more rigidity, faster locktime, longer case life since the action does not flex as much with a bolt rig compared to a break-open. you could do the same with a Striker or a H-S Sp action also. Of course the 6.5WSM in a similar set-up would be--WOW
Well, I let the cat out of the bag on my feelings about superior actions for SP's.
My medium sporter weight barreled MOA came without a brake and it was fine for me to shoot it, but since I planned for my 11 year old and 16 year old kids to shoot it I had a brake put on it and it is a pussycat now.
Her is the pic of the 6.5-284 MOA and my rear grip 6.5-284 XP at Iowa's 1k match.

Ernie,
Good looking pistols Looking at that 400+ yard group tells me that you do a good bit of long range shooting!! I actually have a HS Precision pistol in 6mmBR that I use on Groundhogs at longer ranges. I really like it alot. So do the hogs since it is more of an anoyance than a threat when I am behind the trigger! I am glad to hear that the 6.5x284 isn't too bad to shoot. You are tempting me with those XP's, shame on you!!

As Ernie has so ably said, there is a world of difference between a bolt action and an Encore or a Competitor and what you can do with it at the upper limits. Thanks Ernie for the information and your views. I knew that you have considerable experience with the 6.5 x 284s and I was hopeing you would share it with us. Thank you for doing so.

I happen to like the break actions for hunting over bolt actions because of the shorter over all length and weight savings and the fact that most of my hunting experience has been with break action doubble barreled shot guns. It is a personal preference and not really an accuracy or ballistic issue. Break actions are capable of providing enough velocity and accuracy for hunting for me. I know that there are better platforms available for things that require a higher degree of accuracy and performance.

Ernie is certainly right about the HS Precision handguns. You could get a super accurate guarenteed shooting machine probably a lot cheaper than having one built up on an XP action.

The MOAs are also more accurate than the run of the mill over the counter bolt guns and have the added advantage of retaining that short over all length so desirable for hunting. They have their own set of quirkes and can't be pushed as hard as a bolt guns can but exude quality all the way.

What would be ideal would be to be able to own one or more of each. Then there is the Thor, another opportunity for excellence. The problem for most of us is that there are too many toys to buy and too little cash to buy them with. Living in California introduces a whole different set of other difficulties as some of these guns can't be leagelly bought, so I am a little more limited than many of you in what I can do.

I guess what it comes down to is what you want to do with the gun and what your preferences are. Ernie is quite right about the advantages of the shorter cases, and I believe a 25 WSSM may be the ultimate fo necked up to 6.5 posibility for actions that can handle it at full throttle, which the Encore clearly is not. Shorter brass gives a longer the effective barrel length. JD's magnum beaters work for the same reason that the 50R case works, the smaller head diameter allows the use of higher pressures safely. So in the example of the 3006 based cartridges, even though they are long they can be pushed harder than the short fat or long fat cases, beating magnum case performance with less powder.

Dougm58 has a lot of choices to choose from and I hope that he has a fun and rewarding experience doing it.I just wish that I had the same opportunities that he does...Rusty.

You could make that H-S do everthing for you want with a relatively small amount of funds. New Broughton 1-8 twist 5C (canted Land) stainless steel barrel and send it to Tannel, Youngblood or White and you can both varmint and deer hunt both with either a 6.5-284 or 6mm-284.
Aren't you glad I'm not prejudiced

Rusty,
What I am hoping to see in the future with the Thor from Tangfoglio is a 15-16 inch barrel for at least the 06 class and WSM class of cartridges. This would still make a very compact practical SP.
Competitor is also coming out with a larger action to handle the WSM's.
So far with my MOA I have not had any problems. It has been a class act all the way around. It also has grouped great @ 1000 yards. My 11 year old turned in these groups with is this summer.

We are working on getting a different hunting forend for it that is suitable for a sling swivel stud. Then it will be really ready for prone shooting and easily slinged in the field.
He was using the Bower Rest System and was shooting off a portable bench.

Lots of choices out there. Maybe you just need one of each

Ernie: On forearm configurations, the Encore with the rifle forearm is a delite to carry on a sling. Putting a bipod out near the end of the barrel on the forearm gives a long, stable wheel base instead of the teeter totter effect you get with the short pistol forends, and the repeatibility of consistant hand placement for shooting off hand in hunting situations is really terrific. I would think that a similar treatment would work well on a MOA.

If your 11 year old son is shooting a 6.5 x 284, it can't be too bad. Impressive shooting for anyone at any age. Keep up the good work with your children. If I have this right, your daughter has taken a number of deer with the 260. Congradulations are in order all around...Rusty.

The MOA forend is completely free-floating. It does not touch the barrel in any way. It is connected to the action. BUt since the MOA was more designed for sillywet than hunting, the forends do not have the strength to take abuse that might be given through the use of a bipod.
But hopefully that will change in the near future.
That is good to here about the fore-ends.
My daughter has taken 3 deer and on elk with the 14 inch 260 Rem barrel and she has also like my 11 year old shot the 17 inch (braked)6.5-284 barrel at 1k.

Interested to see the 6.5x57R being talked about in a break open pistol.

VVN160 works very well in rifles. The 100gr hornady sp works extremely well on white tail sized deer.

Ernie, have my beloved 6mmBR rebarreledd!!!! You heretic You and Rusty have filled my head with soo many choices and combinations that I am beginning to become confused (even more than normal). I think I will sit down and write down the parameters that I want this 6.5 to fill then hopefully I can eliminate some of the choices. I wish HS Precision would chamber wildcats. I would just have it chambered for 6.5x284, or 6.5x06Imp, or 6.5WSM, There I go again!! Make the madness STOP
When it comes to style of SP, I guess It's what your use to. I have shot my Contender for so long that it just feels right. Also, when I am hunting I like to loop my sling together to itself and then attach it to the swivel stud on the bottom of the grip. I put my head through the sling, and hold the grip with two hands such that the sling is riding over the top of my left hand. I adjust the sling to get a full sight picture, and by pushing slightly forward to create tension it creates a sort of triangle resulting in a very steady hold. If I am sitting it is very solid indeed. I use this style with all my Contender barrels including the .375jdj, and .45-70. I don't think this method would be possible without the use of a muzzle break to keep the muzzle down. With my set up though it works very well for me.
If I bought a HS and had it rechambered and a break added I'm sure I would have close to 1700 or more in it. If I bought a used XP and had it rebarreled, new stock, break added I'm guessing I'd be at about 1100-1200 dollar range with shipping and such. I am going to have about 775 in the barrel with the fluting and break since I have the frame already. Although the XP would undouptedly be a great hunting arm that's more than I want to spend right now. This project got started when I purchased an Encore frame on an Internet auction that had a SSK action job, Bellm hammer extension and oversized pin. Since I wasn't interested in another large bore barrel I decided I would again try to find a faster 6.5. Something to move 140 grainers at at least 2700fps which would allow me to throttle back a bit if I wanted to. I also don't want to beat myself up too much while shooting it. So given all that I am still leaning towards the 6.5x270JDJ with a fluted barrel(the encore is about .75 lbs heavier than a contender, and doesn't seem to balance well in my hand with its 15 inch barrel)and then send it out to have a break put on (don't want to lose the 1+ inch to an SSK integral arrester). Then top it with a 2.5-8x32 Leupold, or if I want to save alittle weight but keep the 32mm obj go to a Bushell 3200 in 2-6x32. I have both scopes currently so I can switch around before I buy. I guess like Ernie I am hooked on the 6.5mm. I will have to start saving for a bolt action SP in a 6.5 something.

Heretic, huh
Okay, Okay. How about these apples
Instead of taking off your 6BR barrel and using it for a tomato stake what you can do is have a smith turn your H-S into a switch barrel and you can have your 6.5-284 for some stuff and your 6mmBR for others. You can have the 6.5 barrel either the same taper or lighter than your existing contour and you are set.
This is still a whole lot cheaper than building a custom XP or H-S.

When it comes to scopes for the rig I am talking about get a Burris 3-12 LER with Ballistic Plex Reticle. If you really want to shoot in style get the version with either the turrets or add a target turret to the elevation knob and get a Kenton replacement turret for your specific load

Dougm58: Here is another curve for you to think about. Alothough I personally prefer the superior ballistic efficiency of the 6.5 bullets, the 257JDJ can get about 2900 fps with an 85 grain bullet. The 257 Mini Dreadnaught ought to be capable of that speed with 100 grain bullets. You could still go up to the 115s, 117 and 120 grain pills if you wanted to, but the 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip or Partition is quite capable of doing what needs to be done on deer. You would have a flatter trajectory and less recoil with more velocity than the 6.5s, and you wouldn't need a break with this one. I know that it isn't a 6.5, but it would offer some significant advantages and it would sure be different...Rusty.

Ernie,
Thanks for all the suggestions, the switch barrel idea is interesting. I don't know much about them. Do you take it to a gunsmith to have the barrels changed, or are they set up so you can do it yourself? I had a 3-12 Burris with target turrets when they first came out. I had it on my 6mm BR. It was great from a bench. Where I hunt though I almost never get out when a field is fresh cut, so prone shooting is out. Most of my groundhog hunting is done sitting on the ground with a bipod. That 3-12 was just too hard to hold steady while trying to stay on a hog at 250+ yards. That's why I went to a rifle scope. It is still hard, but a lot better due to the large field of view.
Rusty,
good suggestion on the .257 but I really want to stay with the 6.5 in something.
After all the exchange here and my own reading I really think the 6.5x284 would be just about ideal. The 6.5x270jdj should equal the 6.5x284 at less than max loads. I was leaning towards the 6.5x270 but now I'm kinda leaning towards the 6.5x284 in a xp type SP. Still sitting on the fence. Thanks Ernie for pulling me towards the dark side!
I was out shooting my 6.5jdj today and have a good load using AA2520 pushing a Nosler 120 BT at 2444fps ave. velocity. Any sain man would say what more do you want? With good shot placement thats probably good out to 250 yards anyway. I just want something that will equal a .260 rifle at least. Bettering it by a bit would be ok too. I can see I will be thinking about this for a little while. I'm heading down to SC next month for a deer hunt and I'll be using the 6.5jdj with the above load. Hopefully that hunt will either convince me that what I have is plenty, or will convince me that I need to make a choice on a bigger 6.5.

Dougm58: As I see it the main advantage of the 3006 based cartridges is the availability of cheap brass. With the 6.5 x 284, you get 3006 preformance in shorter case with more effective barrel length. Plus you get the availabity of top quality brass in what is becoming, if you do not already believe that it is there, a factory round. Dies should also be cheaper and there is a lot more load data out there to be utilized. In many ways it would be crazy not to pick the 6.5 x 284. But, and there always seems to be a butt, the encore is not the best platform for this cartridge if you want to get its full potential out of it.

Changing your HS over into a switch barrel would be the better and, I believe, cheaper alternative. Switch barrels usually come with a wrench and a barrel vice and head space gauges. Switching barrels can easily be done by you in the field. They used to be used mostly by benchrest shooters but are becoming more popular with hunters, for obvious reasons.

Good luck on your hunt and I hope that you have a good time no matter what you decide. A 6.5 JDJ is pretty hard to beat 90 percent of the time, and the other 10 percent can probably be handled by getting a little closer. One thing that you can do to boost your confidence is to shoot some milk jugs filled with water. The other thing that will help is to hunt ground hogs with your deer load. My 120 grain Ballistic Tips expanded just fine on ground squirrels. They were not as explosive as a varment bullet, but they sure did the job just the same...Rusty.

Several good smiths for bolt SP's that can do switch barrels:
Greg Tannel (Gre-Tan Rifles) CO, Chunk Youngblood CO, Kirby Allen Montana, and David White.
Chunk Youngblood would likely be the one to get your work done the quickest.
I have contact info for all these men.

The switch barrel idea appeals to me. I checked out Greg Tannel's web site out and it looks like he does some really nice work. I'll call to see if he would do a switch barrel on my HS. I agree with you guys that going this way is probably the best from a performance cost perspective. I am going to see if I can order an unchambered barrel from HS in 6.5mm with a 1-9 twist rate. Since they make them for their pistols already it should match up pretty well. I will keep everyone posted on my progress. I never had anything like this built before so I hope I don't make any newbie mistakes. Wish me luck you guys!

Greg built my 7.82 Patriot XP (A work of art) and my 6.5-284 XP (Another work of art)
Greg is one of the better accuracy smiths in the US (My opinion). He is a super nice guy. There may be a wait period, as he is in high demand. Tannel has helped me understand a lot of intricacies of what makes a accurate rig and accurate loading. A 1-8 twist will give you more versatility than a 1-9. On the other hand most 1-9's will stabilize the 140 A-Max, but doubtful if it will stabilize the other 140 class VLD's (if that is even of interest to you).
My favorite barrel is the Broughton's 5C 1-8 twist. It is also one of Tannel's favorites also. Tim's barrels are doing extremely well at 1k. In fact, I think two Broughton barrels won the 2-gun at Nationals this past weekend in Iowa. I need to check the equipment list. I will in the future have a H-S barrel, but cannot comment on how well they do in comparison to the Broughton, Hart, Krieger or Shilen. You may also want to go with a rifle length barrel so you can have a barrel that is from 15.5 inches 16.5 inches (or so).
But Broughton would be my first choice for sure.
When you talk to Greg tell him "Hi" for me. His phone number is listed on the web page.

Doug-- have u tried some of the soft-style stadium seats for your high grass chuck shooting. The single best thing i ever did was add one of these seats to my coyote hunting applications when attempting sitting shooting accurately. They usually have them at Kwal-mart cheap. their advantage is in providing excellent back support which aids terrifically in accurate field shooting like u would not believe until u try them. You can add more closed cell foam as i have for a more comfortable sit if necessary also. They provided a steady enuf rest to get this coyote--

http://www.perry-systems.com/what_others_have_to_say.htm#Steve

Doug,
FYI, Steve is my longtime friend and hunting buddy. Steve's longest shot ever on a coyote was made with a XP-100 in 6.5-284 built by Youngblood and Tannel (long story there). Anyway, the shot was just over 900 yards and he was using the stadium seat and the 3-12 Burris LER he wrote about. Another one of Steve's specialties is getting the most out of ballistic software and reticles for field use. Steve has XP's built by both Greg and Chunk too. Greg lives just outside of Greeley, CO and Chunk live just outside of Pueblo, CO.

Steve, thanks for the advice on the stadium seat. I am gonna pick one up and try it out. That's one of those ideas that makes you go "da" when you first hear it. Thanks for the photos link, wow what a shot on the coyote, and what a awsome ram! Since you and Ernie both eclipse me on your experience with the 6.5x284 and XP style pistols would you both advise me on which barrel taper would work best for accuracy and portability? Also your views on twist rate. I am not planning on shooting 1K yard, just hunting. My range will vary but probably limit at 350-400 yards. Bullets will be 129, and 140 grain suitable for hunting. Ernie mentioned a 1-8 twist. I guess a 1-8 would work better for the lighter bullets in the 100-120 grain range? Any information you guys can supply as to what to order is appreciated. Thanks