I have what may seem to many to be a silly question, but I can not find the answer anyhere by searching so I am going to take a chance here and ask. I recenlty purchased an Encore Pro Hunter 209x50 Muzzleloader. I also am looking into getting an Encore pistol. My questions is can I use the action from the muzzleloader and just change the buttstock to a pistol grip, add a pistol barrel, and a pistol forend? I do not know if the rifle and pistol actions are the same. If they are, this is great as I all I have to do is buy the barrel, grip and forend.
Again, I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I could not find the answer. Thanks in advance for your help!!

The Encore pistol & rifle actions are the same.

As far as the legality of changing an Encore sold in a rifle configuration to that of a handgun; that probably depends. If you live in a state that requires handgun registration, it would probably not be legal. The way I understand it, it is legal under Federal law.

There is no law that would prevent one from changing an Encore sold as a handgun to rifle configuration.

Grumulkin,
You bring up a point that never occurred to me. I live in PA and had all the required checks done when I purchased the muzzleloader. I am not sure, but I hope that means I am ok. I certainly am not going to do anything illegal. If anyone here knows for sure if I can LEGALLY use the frame to make a handgun, please post and let me know. At least I now know it is technically possible. Thanks for the response.

Technically, you would be commiting a felony changing a rifle frame into a handgun. Each frame leaves TC as either a rifle or handgun. If you get caught with a frame that left TC as a rifle with a BBL less than 16", you are in a heap of trouble.
DON'T BELIEVE ME????
Read the letter near the bottom of this page from the nice folks at the ATF:
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

This is good enough for me. I am not taking any chances nor am I going to try to push the law. I got the money, I will buy an encore pistol frame and go from there. Thanks for the responses.

The actions are IDENTICAL.

As long as it is stocked properly, there is no problem. And there is no record of anyone EVER being charged with using a "rifle" frame to set up as a pistol...again, as long as it is properly stocked.

It's really very simple. There is no immediate way of checking the history of a frame, and used frames could get registered one way by John Doe and then another by Jane Doe, so a case would be virtually impossible to prosecute. And while it's somewhat of a separate issue, the courts did clear TC to sell "kits" that allow one to change from rifle to handgun and vice versa.

Far too many folks spend time worrying over things that shouldn't be worried about. Go out to the range and enjoy some shooting instead...

I'm certainly not suggesting you do anything illegal. But the legal department at TC will tell you as I have: properly stocked, it is just fine.

Ask the ATF and you may get a different response from each person you talk to. Yes, converting a rifle into a pistol -- permanently, that is -- is a completely different issue and one that does require re-registration and some red tape.

But the TC, with its interchangable barrel format, is not a "permanent" setup, either.

Bobby, I agree. Stop worrying and just shoot the damned thing. Hell, everybody cheats on their taxes and they think thats OK.

The problem is, whether permanent or not, to change a rifle into a configuration of that would make it a pistol is a FELONY! Don't try to BS someone and work/talk around the law. IT IS the law and while no one has been charged with it yet, it is STILL illegal.

The court case only applies to the carbine/pistol kits that TC sold at one time. It apllies to those and only those, not buying a rifle and changing to a pistol.

Not only iis it illegal to change the rifle into a pistol, but technically after you change your pistol into a rifle, it is then a rifle and illegal to turn back into a pistol. Now granted that will require you being stopped twice with the TC in each configuration.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:


It's really very simple. There is no immediate way of checking the history of a frame, and used frames could get registered one way by John Doe and then another by Jane Doe, so a case would be virtually impossible to prosecute.

NONSENSE, I have called TC 3 different times and asked what a reciever left the factory as. All you need is a serial#.

Tembo-

I guess you dddn't see the word "immediate" in my post.

There is NO immediate way to check. Take a Sunday afternoon -- today, for example. Good luck on calling TC and getting that info at this very moment.

Bobby, when exactly does a DA's Office do anything IMMEDIATELY????? They have all the time in the worlld to file charges. One day ain't going to save your bacon. Did you read something differently in the letter I referenced from the ATF, or did you read it at all????? Seemed pretty cut and dried to me. If you want to screw around with the Federal Government over a $300.00 frame, then may fortune favor the foolish. To me, it is not worth the risk-buy a HANDGUN frame and use it as such. Simple solution.

Tembo-

I am not going to get into detail here, because what I learned from a retired government employee was in confidence -- but there is a reason there has NEVER been anyone prosecuted for having a LEGALLY-STOCKED Contender or Encore pistol or rifle, no matter its origin.

If it is legally-stocked, let's just say the TCs are considered a "non-issue of a gray area."

And those aren't my words.

But if you decide to stick a sub-16 inch pistol barrel on a rifle-stocked frame, then you are all on your own...and subject to obvious prosecution.

The ATF says its a felony to make a rifle into a pistol. Period! Now if its just plinkin in the back yard who cares! But dont let someone of authority catch you with it when you have pistol stocks on it. My Uncle purchased a pistol frame because he wanted the versatility and then picked up a set of plastic rifle stocks on ebay for $30.00. He has a 15" 7mm-08 pro hunter pistol barrel that makes a sexy little carbine when you put the rifle stocks on it. But he still carries his michigan pistol registration card when walking the woods with it. You can make a pistol a rifle but not the other way legally.

quote:

He has a 15" 7mm-08 pro hunter pistol barrel that makes a sexy little carbine when you put the rifle stocks on it.

Now that WILL get you thrown in jail. That's an entirely different situation. That is creating a SBR, or short barreled rifle. Doesn't matter if it started as a pistol, you can't put a shoulder stock on it, if it's less than 16". The average officer usually doesn't have a reason to check if your pistol started out as a rifle, or he may not even know that it is possible to change an Encore. But he will recognize a SBR instantly.

Just my .02

Nashcat

Nashcat is right -- that is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL and will get you thrown in the slammer in a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by K20350:
... He has a 15" 7mm-08 pro hunter pistol barrel that makes a sexy little carbine when you put the rifle stocks on it. .

That is illegal in two ways, barrel length and overall length.

This has been argued forever by a million different people and lawyers and if you want to be on the safe side your Contender/G2/Encore should have started life as a pistol if you want it to be a pistol. All bets are off on your future freedom if you don't follow those rules, regardless of who has and hasn't been prosecuted.

T/C went to bat with the federales to clarify it and if you read the final decisions the water is still just as muddy.

quote:

Originally posted by K20350:
He has a 15" 7mm-08 pro hunter pistol barrel that makes a sexy little carbine when you put the rifle stocks on it.

He's just asking for it!
When he gets caught it'll be considered a gun crime...no more guns for him!

I've had mine since '81. I've NEVER been questioned by ANYONE about whether it was legally a pistol or rifle, EVER.

I've only shot it as a handgun, until these last few months when I've configured it as a rifle and been having my daughter shoot it to prepare for her first deer hunting trip. And this is many trips to a large public shooting range that's run by the state's game and fish dept.

If you're configuring it with a rifle stock and pistol barrel, or a pistol grip and a rifle barrel, you are begging for trouble, and being stupid. If you're configuring it properly, rifle stocks and rifle barrel, or pistol grip and pistol barrel, you don't have anything to worry about.

Much ado about nothing.

It DOES give the internet lawyers something to jaw about however...

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
I've had mine since '81. I've NEVER been questioned by ANYONE about whether it was legally a pistol or rifle, EVER.

If you're configuring it properly, rifle stocks and rifle barrel, or pistol grip and pistol barrel, you don't have anything to worry about.

Much ado about nothing.

It DOES give the internet lawyers something to jaw about however...

Again, no matter how you word or do it, it is STILL a felony. If you want to take the chance, then take it, but you damned sure shouldn't be convincing others that nothing will happen to them if they do it.

I am not going to get into the debate here, but will say something to think about. There have probably been several hundred thouasand Contender, G2 and Encore frames sold. If for some reason, T/C were ever to lose their records of serial numbers (Colt did in a fire) than that would possibly make anyone who owns a T/C Encore, Contender, G2 in pistol form an automatic felon, since there could be no way to prove that the firearm in question was originally a pistol or rifle configuration. Something to think about....

If TC did happen to lose its records and could not prove the origin of a frame, then neither could anyone else...

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
I am not going to get into the debate here, but will say something to think about. There have probably been several hundred thouasand Contender, G2 and Encore frames sold. If for some reason, T/C were ever to lose their records of serial numbers (Colt did in a fire) than that would possibly make anyone who owns a T/C Encore, Contender, G2 in pistol form an automatic felon, since there could be no way to prove that the firearm in question was originally a pistol or rifle configuration. Something to think about....

Innocent until proven guilty. As Bobby said, If you can't prove it is a pistol, then they can't prove it started as a rifle.

This question was answered in another thread.All TC Frames(Contender & Encore) are sold as PISTOLS.It can be used as a pistol or converted to Rifle with a barrel of over 16 inches and is LEGAL.End of story.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
This question was answered in another thread.All TC Frames(Contender & Encore) are sold as PISTOLS.It can be used as a pistol or converted to Rifle with a barrel of over 16 inches and is LEGAL.End of story.

Sorry, but though it's often said, it's just not true. Years ago, TC did sell some frames only, without stocks or grips, and I have no idea how those were designated. Most frames (and all frames currently, to the best of my knowledge) are sold either with grip and forend - pistol configuration - or buttstock and forend - rifle configuration - or complete firearms of either type. The way they leave the factory determines what T/C would report to anyone who asks for a given serial number.

I have several older Contender frames. I contacted T/C with all the serial numbers and they were able to tell me how each frame was designated when it left the factory. They were definitely NOT all pistols.

This doesn't address the main issue being discussed, but I thought it worthwhile to try to clear up a common misconception. No offense intended to anyone, btw.

quote:

Originally posted by JLarsson:

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
This question was answered in another thread.All TC Frames(Contender & Encore) are sold as PISTOLS.It can be used as a pistol or converted to Rifle with a barrel of over 16 inches and is LEGAL.End of story.

Sorry, but though it's often said, it's just not true. Years ago, TC did sell some frames only, without stocks or grips, and I have no idea how those were designated. Most frames (and all frames currently, to the best of my knowledge) are sold either with grip and forend - pistol configuration - or buttstock and forend - rifle configuration - or complete firearms of either type. The way they leave the factory determines what T/C would report to anyone who asks for a given serial number.

I have several older Contender frames. I contacted T/C with all the serial numbers and they were able to tell me how each frame was designated when it left the factory. They were definitely NOT all pistols.

This doesn't address the main issue being discussed, but I thought it worthwhile to try to clear up a common misconception. No offense intended to anyone, btw.

Well I just spoke with Wisconsins NRA Represenitive who is a Lawyer and he said that this was all settled in Court years ago and not to worry.Not to say that some Dickwad will not mess with you because of their ignorance of The Law.Plenty LEO`s in Wi.do not know that open carry is legal in Wi.(Except in a Vehicle)and go bananas when they see you strapping heat openly.

I was told that it is illegal to make a rifle into a pistol, but can find no record where the ATF has ever inforced it. Better to do it the other way around just to be safe. I know of a lot of people who have done it, but???.

quote:

Originally posted by d l. garfield:
I was told that it is illegal to make a rifle into a pistol, but can find no record where the ATF has ever inforced it. Better to do it the other way around just to be safe. I know of a lot of people who have done it, but???.

Theoretically, if one were to convert a TC pistol into a rifle that's ok but converting it back to a pistol by swapping back to original pistol form now would be turning your newly made rifle illegally into a pistol. If you read the letter of the law it could be interpreted that way. All depend on the judges and lawyers in the end if that were to come up.

I think this discussion with its many opinions all boils down to one simple conclusion.
Each individual needs to decide how much risk he is willing to deal with.

The statements about T/C declaring some of these practices legal holds little water when considering the consequences of a possible court case.

It's crystal clear to me that even if you could win a court case against BATF, who can afford the legal fees or the time involved! The possibility of 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines also makes me unwilling to argue in court with the Feds.

To my knowledge, no one has ever been prosecuted for having a pistol barrel on a T/C rifle frame, but I’m not willing to be the new test case before a court proceeding.

quote:

To my knowledge, no one has ever been prosecuted for having a pistol barrel on a T/C rifle frame, but I’m not willing to be the new test case before a court proceeding.

That's a succinct way of saying exactly what I wanted to say.

The law isn't muddy and the TC supreme court case had nothing to do with converting a rifle into a handgun......it decided the legality of converting a Contender HANDGUN into a rifle through the use of the then new "carbine kit".....TC did not produce or sell Contender rifles at the time the case was filed.....every Contender sold was a handgun....this is simply no longer the case, if it comes from the factory with a shoulder stock, it is legally a rifle and it is a felony to convert a rifle into pistol configuration without first paying the tax and registering it as a short barreled rifle.....

You can read it for yourself at the link....

http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t29/index.html

Gonhuntin, don't waste your time. I posted the same letter 2 months ago and guys still argued it was legal to convert a rifle frame into a pistol. Some people just don't get it, I guess.

Some of them sure don't want to let the facts get in the way of what they want to believe!!!

EXACTLY!! That letter was pretty black and white, not alot of grey area.

Yep, it cracks me up when they get all excited about a guy who puts a 15" barrel and a shoulder stock on his pistol frame, but they say don't worry about putting a pistol barrel and pistol grip on a rifle frame.......legally, the results are EXACTLY the same.....unregistered short barreled rifles!!!!

I guess you could always pay the tax and SBR your frame and switch components as often as you like.

Well, Sportsman's Warehouse sells all the frame kits (no barrel, just frame and stocks), no matter what the stock configuration or what the box says, as a handgun for NICS check purposes. Just thought I would mention this.

First of all, for someone to question if it was originally a rifle frame converted to pistol, you would have to have probable cause. If you are out shooting your T/C Contender, G2 or Encore legally, I am not sure what the probable cause would be to stop and check.
Personally, unless you really p##s off someone I think this is a none issue with the BATFE. I worked in a gunshop in New Mexico in the early to mid 70's. We had a guy bring in a gun to sell that was given to him for his help in a road side situation. It was a Remington single shot 22 rifle that someone had cut behind the pistol grip and cut the barrel even with the forearm. We told him it was illegal and he asked us to dispose of it.
We called the ATF (as it was known back then) and they said to store it and they would pick it up. Several calls over the years failed to get it picked up. When the shop closed in the late 70's, the gun was still there. Another call to the proper authorities said they would pick it up from the person whose name was on the FFL. He kept it until his death in the mid 90's, again never having anyone get it. I believe his son took a cutting torch to it.
A long story, but the point is, I don't believe that the BATFE is out to get someone who puts a pistol grip and pistol barrel on a Contender and later changes it to a rifle or vice versa. Just my opinion.