I first used a light with a handgun at a Gunsite course, learning to hold my little Surefire in my left hand, with the backs of both hands in an isometric balance.

So what's the story with all the rail mounted lights? Do people, other than military, really carry pistols with these lights mounted?

A lot of the young guys carry them at work. They all seem to like them. Alot of the old heads just stick w/seperate pieces of equipment.

If I was on the streets I'd try to get the hang of it as one of the big draw backs is the added expense of a new holster.

I carry one on my duty weapon and it took a little getting use to but I will not go back, I still carry a flashlight on my belt though. It is really handy when doing searches where I need a free hand to open doors or move things while searching. My home gun has one mounted as well.

I don't carry one on my concealed carry rig as it is just to bulky.

When your searching at night and you need a light they are very handy.

There are some very neat quick detachable ones that go on and of really fast. could be use with any firearm with a rail.

They making using a hand gun or long gun and flashing light very useable at night. they fit any weaver style rail.

Put one on your belt or next to the bed you have a handy light or a weapon light as needed. Only draw back is you can't holster them in regular holster. Back they do go on and off fast.

I wish I could find one I could use on my Ti 41 revolver. When things go bump at night out side the tent miles from any street light It would be nice to have two hands for shooting.

If you have a firearm with a rail they sure do beat holding a flash light and shooting.

A weapon mounted light allows the shooter to maintain a FIRM two handed grip and does not fatigue the user the way non weapon mounted light techniques do.

Mounted lights should not be installed, or removed while the weapon is loaded.

Sure does give the assailant a target to shoot at.....never did understand the value of one, especially mounted on the pistol.

quote:

Sure does give the assailant a target to shoot at.....never did understand the value of one, especially mounted on the pistol.

Yes.

I also think it MUST be, surely, an invitation to shoot back at the light. To say nothing of the chance accidentally "blinding" yourself by reflection from a window or similar.

I would have thought that if there is more than one person you are up against the light under the gun pretty much says "SHOOT HERE"!

Just remember, when pointing a weapon-mounted light at someone you are also pointing a weapon at them; and as such it is likley to be considered a lethal force encounter (yes, legally). I for one will take great personal objection to such behavior and may likely respond with my own version of counter-vailing force,sans light.....

If God wanted handguns to light up the dark he would have created the 2 inch barrelled 357 magnum, oh, yeah, he already did that.

Merry Christmas

The legal aspects always create intellectual dilemmas. I suppose if someone is shot, in the dark, that the shooter could be accused of not having identified the target before shooting if he didn't have a light.

I tend to agree with billinthewild and enfieldspares, although I have never been to any "classes". I keep the flashlight separate from the gun. What justification/explanation do they give in the classes for mounting the flashlight to the gun (for a home defense situation)? I can see that it might be different house clearing in Iraq or Afganistan with an AR15 type rifle though.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
Sure does give the assailant a target to shoot at.....never did understand the value of one, especially mounted on the pistol.

If you attended proper Low Light training, you would understand the TTP's to address those issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I tend to agree with billinthewild and enfieldspares, although I have never been to any "classes". I keep the flashlight separate from the gun. What justification/explanation do they give in the classes for mounting the flashlight to the gun (for a home defense situation)?
Peter.

Having the weapon mounted light allows the shooter to maintain a firm 360 degree coverage of the frame to allow for more accurate shooting. You also avoid fatigue issues assocaited with flashlight techniques with a separate flashlight.

If you have tried it both ways, it is no brainer the weapon mounted light is the clear winner.

When I attended a Gunsite course, the pistol mounted lights did not exist, or at least were not common and no common pistols had the rail to hold them. We learned the Harries flashlight holding technique which I believe is still they way they instruct. But I haven't been there since 2001.

Just remember, that when you point a firearm at someone who is not threatening you with lethal or grave force, you have just become an agressor and the person you are pointing your firearm at has the right to justifed use of lethal force (certainly jurisdictionally dependent).

Point your light at something you wish to illuminate, your firearm at something you need to stop from killing ot gravely harming yourself or another innocent. I believe that is how a jury and a judge would look at it (we are talking armed citizens, not necessarily LEOs and certainly not combat troopers).

Yeah, I agree. I do not want to get into it in court for pointing a weapon at someone just to illuminate them. If I were a LEO, I might feel differently. Besides the "shoot me" factor, of course. That light makes a very convenient target for someone hiding in the dark.

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
Sure does give the assailant a target to shoot at.....never did understand the value of one, especially mounted on the pistol.

Nope. You have a switch that you activate from left or right side with a weak hand fingertip, instant or permanent lighting.
(a selector allows you to turn off or preselect laser only, light only, light plus laser)
I practice like I did with my Maglite or Surefire, aim, illuminate, ID, fire (or not)faster to do than to read it.

Please click on thumbnails




I suggest using frangible bullets for indoor use. Better something that loses all its energy desingrating in the target and can't go through the target and a light wall than one of these so called flying ashtray manstopper wonderbullets that behaves like FMJ after having its hollow point filled with cloth when impacting the target (Yes, talking about experience...)

All I can say if I were a bad guy and someone came into a dark room looking for me with a light, I'd put four or five rounds very quickly into the immediate vicinity of that light, whether it was momentary on or full on. I'd probably get a hit.

You always have enough natural or street lighting to locate the agressor. You live in the place, you do not need to turn on the light to move in your home. Never gone to toilet or the kitchen without turning the light on?

The only moment you need to illuminate the target is when you are already in shooting stance and you have to ID before shooting.

I love my Meprolight sights.



Then practice, practice, practice..

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I tend to agree with billinthewild and enfieldspares, although I have never been to any "classes". I keep the flashlight separate from the gun. What justification/explanation do they give in the classes for mounting the flashlight to the gun (for a home defense situation)? I can see that it might be different house clearing in Iraq or Afganistan with an AR15 type rifle though.
Peter.

Hope you never have to fumble for the light when you have enough things to process. Hope you attached a string to your light that allows you to have it around the wrist is something or someone makes you lose the grasp of it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
When your searching at night and you need a light they are very handy.

There are some very neat quick detachable ones that go on and of really fast. could be use with any firearm with a rail.

They making using a hand gun or long gun and flashing light very useable at night. they fit any weaver style rail.

Put one on your belt or next to the bed you have a handy light or a weapon light as needed. Only draw back is you can't holster them in regular holster. Back they do go on and off fast.

I wish I could find one I could use on my Ti 41 revolver. When things go bump at night out side the tent miles from any street light It would be nice to have two hands for shooting.

If you have a firearm with a rail they sure do beat holding a flash light and shooting.

I hope you have a string attached to the butt of the handgun and the other end around your wrist. You feel bad when you wake up in the middle of the night in your tent and the handgun has slipped at the foot of the sleeping bag...

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
You always have enough natural or street lighting to locate the agressor. You live in the place, you do not need to turn on the light to move in your home. Never gone to toilet or the kitchen without turning the light on?

The only moment you need to illuminate the target is when you are already in shooting stance and you have to ID before shooting.

You are erroneously assuming you know where the target is hiding. If he is in deep shadow and you do not immediately see him, he has the drop on you, light or no light. You're toast.

I do not assume anything. A robber comes to rob. You are in your home, you have the upper hand in the game. I have done some house clearing in the past.
Where I live now, I share a very big house with someone who knows how to use a handgun but never even thought of a possible scenario and did not have a light that he could use with his handgun. I did remedy to that.
One night, we had the perimeter alarm waking us up. He cleared the upper floor, I cleared the ground floor and we met in the entrance hall before clearing outside.
We did not switch any light on and only called each other by our names before we entered the entrance hall area.
Knowing how to move in the place without light, knowing every corner and adapting your stance to your move and the potential angle of fire is the key.
I am pretty sure most of you never practiced with the weak hand when it is necessary for clearing a corner without exposing yourself.
I did practice and I am only slightly slower with my weak hand. Then the act of shooting became so natural that I can focus on the rest.

Always makes me smile when I hear someone saying they are prepared for a night intrusion and I see the time they need to get their weapon ready in full daylight, how they repeatedly miss targets in stress conditions when we organised some funshoots and the poor level they have when invited to compete in an IPSC event or a funshoot.

Practice, practice, practice. Know the place where you may have to move and shoot, rehearse the possible scenario and have the right stuff in hand.

For all of you that are against weapon mounted lights how are you going to identfy your target in the dark.

If you use a non weapon mounted light your accuracy is compomised. The bad guys well still see the light.

If your searching a dark building ect that you don't know, dam it hurts to fall down that open stair well tip over the unseen ect.

Shooting some one that doesn't deserve it well get you in all kinds of trouble

I have trained hundreds of officers with and with out weapon mounted lights, The ones with out mounted lights 99% of the time shoot worse then the ones with mounted lights.


Ever try and work a pump shot gun with a flash light in one hand its fun to watch but could be very fatal in real life.

Nope I'll take a weaponed mounted light any day.

Edmond You make a lot of good points most people don't paractice near enough. Very few do any night shooting or movement.

Clearing a place you know is one thing clearing a unknown area is another. Searching for someone who might or might not be armed is one thing. Defending you home is differant then not.

Waking up in the middle of the woods and having to dermined if its a bear, recoon, deer ect out side your tent. Then placeing killing shot is another.

Or hearing something in the garage one still has to identfiy what ever it is. Waiting till it is almost on you doesn't work very well.

I was very glad to have a good light when the 400lb bear came running out. No I didn't shoot him but I then was in a position of advanage.

quote:

Ever try and work a pump shot gun with a flash light in one hand its fun to watch but could be very fatal in real life.

Nope I'll take a weaponed mounted light any day.

The original subject was "lights on handguns".
I am not averse to a light on a handgun. My P220 has an accessory rail and I have a combination light/laser that fits on it. Just not my first choice. I just don't want to give the BG a target to aim at. I would (and have practiced) hold the flashlight (a Surefire that sits on my bedside table) away from my body but still pointing "down range". Never had to use it for real!
Peter.

Hate to say it any time you turn your light on you are giving a BG a target.

Same targeting arguments for or agaist wepons lights handguns long guns ect.

It use to be said that you always aim low and to your left of the light. Being most guys are rt handed and held their light high and left.

We need to split this into two or more sub-topics, armed citizen, and LEO minimum.

Also, in hunting camp using handgun to figure out what went bump is ratheh different that citizen on street dealing with a probable perp, same as homeowner in house doing the same-probable burglar.

Each one of these scenarios is very different tactically and as such, should be dealt with indivually.

Best

Andrew cempa you are right.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

Ever try and work a pump shot gun with a flash light in one hand its fun to watch but could be very fatal in real life.

Nope I'll take a weaponed mounted light any day.

The original subject was "lights on handguns".
I am not averse to a light on a handgun. My P220 has an accessory rail and I have a combination light/laser that fits on it. Just not my first choice. I just don't want to give the BG a target to aim at. I would (and have practiced) hold the flashlight (a Surefire that sits on my bedside table) away from my body but still pointing "down range". Never had to use it for real!
Peter.

That's what I primarily learned and it took me years and many rounds to be able to aim, illuminate, ID, shoot/don't shoot within one second. In the end I was even able to illuminate, ID, light off, shoot and hit every time an A4 size target between 10 and 15 meters, usually a steel plate, nice sparkles.
My favorite pistol for this exercise was my Glock 29 with American Eagle 180 grains factory load. Always impressed the bystanders.. Did not do that for 3 years now.
It is easy to impress on things you have trained so many times, it is much more difficult when you are in a new environmment. I remember I did not even see some targets in IPSC at the beginning. Good lesson..

Andrew cempa I would have to disagree that the two (LEO and Citizen) need to be seperated. Deadly force is deadly force and the justification for its use is the same for both parties. There is not a law seperating LEO and citizens when it is applied.

For those that have practiced a lot with low light shooting will have an advantage with the weapon mounted light. I have trained many officers and see it on a regular basis.

I think there needs to be clarification between the use of a weapon mounted flashlight as a flashlight as well. If you need a flashlight DON'T use the one mounted on your weapon.

For those that are worried about pointing your weapon at someone with the light mounted, why do you have the weapon out in the first place? If you are in a situation were you need your weapon out you need to be prepared to point it at someone then figure out if they are friend or foe. If I am citizen and searching my home and have reason to believe someone is inside you can be assured if you see my light there is a weapon behind it.

I have trained as "the bad guy" and will take my chances against the person without the weapon light any day and here is why and I have seen it in just about every case/training senario. When using the FBI Technique or holding the flashlight away from the body you can not hold it far enough in front of you to NOT illuminate yourself in some way giving your adversary something to shoot at.

I have not seen this with people using the weapon mounted light or the Harries technique.

Every person I have trained has shot better with a weapon mounted light. Also every officer with a weapon mounted light did better in Simunition/live fire training scenarios with weapon mounted lights and the BG's did worse.

It does not matter what type of gun, long gun or handgun, IF you are going to be using a gun and a light at the same time, you are MUCH better to have the light mounted on the weapon.

Once you decide to turn the light on, it does not matter to the bad guy if it is in your hand or on your gun, the light is on and he will see it.

It does make a BIG difference to you, as if the light is on the gun, then you have MUCH better control of your gun.

NE450No2;

Asssumption: CC use of weapons and lights outside the home

I agree for ease of shooting, due to better grip etc, that a mounted light is better.

However, and this is the point that I think we need to carefully address-when you point a weapon mounted light at someone, you are pointing a weapon at someone-you will never win in court saying "but I was only using my light to see in the dark, you Honor". In most jurisdictions, you can only legally do so (present or point a lethal weapon) and not be considered the "aggressor" IF and only IF you are responding to a justified lethal force situation. That being said, in context of a citizen carrying outside the home, you better be sure that you need to shoot, not just illuminate.

I will carry a separate light, practice useful techinques (actually, only one) and use the light for illumination apart from the firearm.

In other words, if someone pointed a weapon mounted light at me while being about my lawful business and I was able to determine it was mounted indeed on a firearm, I would automatically go to lethal threat response mode based on the standard reasonable man equation of fear of life or limb:

Ability-weapon (handgun)in hand

Opportunity-within 25 or so yards I suppose)

Intent-illegally pointing a weapon at me w/o cause

You use a flashlight to search, a weapon to engage with lethal force.

Once mounted and pointed, any reasonable man would and should assume that the primary tool is the WEAPON, not the LIGHT.

Again, LEOs, home defense may be different applications (they are).

Best;

Since handgun mounted lights are a fairly recent development, I suppose there isn't much jurisprudence on the subject of their use by a civilian in self-defense. And if there are some cases where this has been disputed then they are probably too few to draw any overall conclusions.

So which is the preferred handgun light?

After testing many of them, my choice is Stream light M6, model TLI 001 (combined laser/illuminator with 4 position preselection)

They are nice lights.

Surefire and Streamlight are the nicest ones I have used. Both have been very reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
Since handgun mounted lights are a fairly recent development, I suppose there isn't much jurisprudence on the subject of their use by a civilian in self-defense. And if there are some cases where this has been disputed then they are probably too few to draw any overall conclusions.

So which is the preferred handgun light?

Yes, but there are centuries of jurisprudence concerning pointing firearms at people.....

I am telling ya, point a gun (in the context of a citizen and CC) at someone and then try to use "I was only pointing my flashight at him to ID him" as a defense will likley not be successful. If you survive.

Try 'splaining why a cop/neighbor shot you when you were prowling around your yard (in the 'burbs) late at night with your weapon mounted light 'cause you heard something go bump....

On the other hand, a handgun in your strong hand, flashlight in your weak hand and proper technique and practice and you can immediately apply light and or force as needed, true, not quite as efficiently as a weapon-light combo, but vastly safer to both self and innocents. At least you can holster you weapon while still having illum as a cop/innocent approaches and be not quite as threatening..

My position is separate the tactical functions to insure proper use and to avoid the dicotomy of "which was it, gun or light?" (I kinda think we all know the answer!)

Anyway,

best;

Andrew, if you have the need to be searhing around your house because you heard something go bump in the night and you feel the need to have your weapon out you have the right to point it at someone until you determine the risk that threat presents. I stated in my previous post that you should not be using your weapon mounted light as a flashlight when there is no perceived threat.

Assume you don't have a flashlight at all; I can just see the testimony: Defendant "No,your Honor, my weapon was at my side, not pointed at the intruder when I went searching around my house." Plaintiff "Your Honor, the defendant is telling lies, he had the gun pointed at me."

Establishing the truth about whether or not a gun is pointed at somebody must be an interesting process when there is no film or video evidence of the event. If you are in your own home, my bet is on the resident getting the benefit of the doubt. What difference does a flashlight make?

My self defense instructor wrote a book call "Rule the Night, Win the Fight". Very good reading and supports lights both hand held and mounted. Check out Ed Santos with Center Target Sports. A true master!