Let's say you live in a trailer park. One night you wake up to find a man in your living room with a gun in his hand. You are at one end of the trailer and your kids are in bunk beds at the other end of trailer. He's standing between you and your kids room.

In less than 10 steps the intruder will be out of your sight, in the hall, and standing in the doorway to the kids room. Your wife is still in bed behind you. All you have is a 9mm with FMJ in your hand.

This is not an impossible scenario. This didn't happen to me or anyone I know. Just curious as to the responses.

First I would not have a 9mm or ball ammo in it. But to answer your question, I take a knee or a prone position to try and change the trajectory as much as possible. I know the bullet will deflect in another direction upon impact but I take a head shot depending on the range to him that you did not indicate.

If its over 10 yards center of mass and then close the distance and attack.

same, kneel and fire. Take the fight to him and take him away from my family. I also shoot the dog, who didn't bark and alarm me before the perp got in.

quote:

First I would not have a 9mm or ball ammo in it.

What's wrong with a 9mm.? I agree about the ball ammo since it is too penetrating and may enter the kids room after passing through the intruder.

The advantage would actually be on my side here. Perp not expecting to be shot, the flash/bang would be deafening and disorienting and with the accuracy of the 9mm. (at least in my hands) a head shot or center mass would probably end the confrontation.

Won't work for me, no wife, no kids and I would not own a puny 9mm.

Kneel and shoot him in the

Should hit enough pelvic bone to limit the chance of pass through and richocet.

You don't say if there is enough light to identify the intruder, you don't say if he is facing you, or threatening you, or walking away from you.

If you shoot someone in the back who is walking away from you in dim light, and just to add to the scenario the intruder has no previous arrests, you better have a mighty fine lawyer. You may be able to get life instead of the death penalty.

Probably a drunken brother-in-law. Tell him to grab a couple brewskies out of the fridge, there's a fishin' show on TNN.

"What if" indeed!

I left some details out for a reason. These kind of responses are what I was expecting(and glad) to hear. Every detail is important. You all thought about it and took it a step further. Well done.

I must say that I didn't think about the pelvic shot.

Of course the worst case outcome would be you shooting one of your own kids, or shouting at the perp so that he shoots at you and accidentally hitting you wife(assuming you love her). A stray bullet going into another trailer would a concern.

The fact that he has a gun is enough info for me to not hesitate in taking action. I'm not taking a chance. He's gonna go down when it's safe to do so. If I was to end up in jail, but my family is alive, then so be it.

Like i said, i was just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
You don't say if there is enough light to identify the intruder, you don't say if he is facing you, or threatening you, or walking away from you.

If you shoot someone in the back who is walking away from you in dim light, and just to add to the scenario the intruder has no previous arrests, you better have a mighty fine lawyer. You may be able to get life instead of the death penalty.

Not in Florida. He's in my house, he's toast. I don't care if he's walking on his hands.

When discussing self defense or home defense, it is probably more useful to discuss broader guidelines than tightly constructed scenarios. Why? Because the author can never provide enough detail to allow someone to provide an answer that is always true. Too many variables will not provide sound results in any science.

In this general instance, it is true that taking a shot would violate #4 of the age old RULES. Even from a kneeling position your shot is still a threat to the kids and neighbors. A 9mm FMJ *MIGHT* deflect easily off bone or the wall itself enough to hit the kids. But, is that enough reason to hold fire?
More importantly, lowering yourself to the ground in a dark house with an unknown number of intruders is simply bad juju. This is also one of the main reasons I hate ankle holsters. At social distances, getting on the ground is {almost} never a good idea. You have now removed your ability to move or effectively fight against other threats and you have made it harder on yourself to see them as well. You want the other guy on the ground, not you!

So what do you do? In any home defense situation:
1. Identify the target. To do this you will need light. Either turn the lights on, or use a weapon mounted flashlight. If you have a gun in your hand looking for things that go bump in the night, it should be at the low ready if not high ready, so you are covering potential threats and illuminating them simultaneously AS YOU ENCOUNTER THEM.
2. If it is an intruder and not grandpa on his way to the lou, BY ALL MEANS USE VERBAL COMMANDS if it will help you, and in this case it would: "DROP THE GUN! Let me see your hands! Get down! Do not move!" Proper verbal commands while covering the target are valuable. Your gun is not your only tool. Why would I be worried about 'scaring' him into taking a shot when he came here ready to shoot people anyway?
3. If he has a weapon and does not instantaneously comply with your commands, take the shot. It's that simple. ANY OTHER ACTION OR INACTION will favor the intruder. Time is not on your side. What if this is the third of three intruders and the first two are loading your kids in their car while you and he are playing mexican standoff in the living room? What if another intruder is coming thru your bedroom window to your unarmed/sleeping wife?
How do you want to find out?

Your priority is to secure this known threat as soon as possible, ensure your family is safe, check for other threats, and call the cavalry.

That is a lot to do alone. Me? I say get a teammate. Risk incurring the wrath of SWMBO and wake her up: "Honey, I heard something and am going to check it out." That way, when she hears either my command voice or a boom, she knows she needs to be dialing 911 and then get the kids squared away. Half my duties are already being handled, aren't they?

I don't know about France, but if you live in a place where shooting an armed intruder is not a defensible action, I'd recommend moving. There is not a DA in my region that would push that case, barring significant other factors.
If you are contemplating not shooting armed intruders because of litigation afterward, I'd recommend selling your guns. I run into lots of people who develop a mindset built around the false knowledge that they will survive every gunfight only to be sued. I rarely encounter folks who understand the first 6 seconds of a gunfight generally determines the length of the rest of their life.

ChetNC

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Not in Florida. He's in my house, he's toast. I don't care if he's walking on his hands.

didn't know Florida and Tejas were that similar on this.

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:

In this general instance, it is true that taking a shot would violate #4 of the age old RULES.

griz78: "One night you wake up to find a man in your living room with a gun in his hand."

WHO may not be identified but WHAT is.

I took the Gunsite course in about '80' (CRS syndrome ), with my remembrances of The Col., he would most likely would have verbally engaged, though I'm not positive, he might have just shot him. (with a .45 of course )

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Not in Florida. He's in my house, he's toast. I don't care if he's walking on his hands.

Jet, if he's walking on his hands and knees, might be the proper place for a "texas heart shot"

Take a knee, make sure he's facing me amd armed. Under your condtions i would choose a shot with the least possibility of making it to my kids room. That said. I would not use ball ammo in any HD handgun. Speer gold dots or Fed hydroshocks. My #1 choice is a Win 1300 loaded with Federal Personal Defense Ammo. #2 is one of the .357's with Remington or Winchester 38SPL +P 158GR LSWCHP.

Thanks DuggaBoye for covering that for me.


CheyNC,
As I said before, I wrote it with little detail to try to get responses like the ones I recieved.
Quote from MyNameIsEarl:
I know the bullet will deflect in another direction upon impact but I take a head shot depending on the range to him that you did not indicate.

If its over 10 yards center of mass and then close the distance and attack.

Quote from Wink:
You don't say if there is enough light to identify the intruder, you don't say if he is facing you, or threatening you, or walking away from you.


Quote from ChetNC:
Because the author can never provide enough detail to allow someone to provide an answer that is always true.

Ok, let's try this:

You're a lawyer who just put a murderer away for life. As they drag him from the courtroom, he yells, "I'm gonna get out and kill you!!"

He DOES break out and is now standing on your yard in the middle of the day with a knife in each hand just like he did in his first murders. He shouts, "I'm gonna kill you and your family!! He starts walking towards you.

You live 10 miles from the nearest house or highway. He's 50 yards from your house on your personal pistol range with a 10ft tall dirt berm behind him. The fact that you're armed doesn't seem to deter him from carrying out his promise.
You've got a S&W .44 with Hydra-Shoks

and practice shooting 8" steel plates at that range just to warm up.

Anyone have a hard time answering this senario?


ChetNC, you have some good points. Some I don't agree with since, of course, every situation is different. But that's the point. It's a discussion form. Not a classroom.

In LA, if you feel threatened, for yourself or your family, you can shoot. He needn't even be inside your house. If he's walking out the door with your TV, that would be different, but if he's armed and between you and your kids, you have all the cause you need. My impulse isn't to give him a verbal command. He has either crossed a line and you are justified, or he hasn't. In this case, he is clearly a threat to my family, and my closed door is the only warning he's gonna get. I'm still gonna shoot the worthless dog that didn't keep him out, or at least wake me before he was in. My current dog would damn sure let me know, and scare him off. Ever hear of a cat scaring away a bad guy?

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:
I left some details out for a reason. These kind of responses are what I was expecting(and glad) to hear. Every detail is important. You all thought about it and took it a step further. Well done.

I must say that I didn't think about the pelvic shot.

Of course the worst case outcome would be --

Worst case outcome would be living in a trailer.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Not in Florida. He's in my house, he's toast. I don't care if he's walking on his hands.

didn't know Florida and Tejas were that similar on this.

Yep. Sure are. Our law was passed in the last couple of years. That, along with not being bound to retreat if you are somewhere you have a right to be. Florida was the first state with shall-issue, and we are in the forefront of personal defense legislation. That's one reason I like it here.

quote:

Originally posted by wino:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Not in Florida. He's in my house, he's toast. I don't care if he's walking on his hands.

Jet, if he's walking on his hands and knees, might be the proper place for a "texas heart shot"

Good point.

Just a question, but what if in the half darkness you take the shot only to find you've killed LEO?

It turns out the LEO had been called by somebody on the park as there was an intruder about and entered your trailer as he had seen the door flapping in the wind..

Would the legal world fall in on the shooter, or would it be recognised as a terrible accident contributed to by the LEO not IDing himself?

This hypothetical is ghey.

If LEO is stupid enough to not identify themselves then they deserve to be shot dead and removed from the gene pool. I know very few if any LEO that would not loudly identify themselves before and during entry.

Here in Texas we have a law called Castile Doctrine. If it is after dark and you are: on my property uninvited, attempting to gain access to my vehicles or equipment without express written permission, or are inside my house, it is assumed you are intent upon commiting grievous bodily harm to me and or my family. I may take whatever action I deem necessary up to and including terminating your life, and neither you nor your family may not file suit against me on your behalf.

I carry Sig 220LE. RBCD 80gr in the pipe and 8rnds in the magazine. I would be totally justified in taking the life of whoever is in my house. RBCD won't over penetrate.

Although the thought of using my taser and then beating the fuck out of the intruder before I shoot him/her is also appealing

Squatch

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)

Castile (historical region)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A former kingdom, Castile (Spanish: Castilla, pronounced [kasˈt̪iʎa] or [kasˈt̪iʝa]), gradually merged with its neighbors to become the Crown of Castile and later the Kingdom of Spain with the Crown of Aragon and the Crown of Navarre. In modern-day Spain, it is usually considered to comprise a part of the the autonomous community of Castilla y León in the north-west, and Castilla-La Mancha and Madrid in the center and south of the country, including sometimes Cantabria and La Rioja as well, for historical reasons. However, there are different versions about the exact boundaries of Castile, and since it lacks an official recognition, it has no official borders. Modern Spanish monarchs are numbered according to the system of Castile.

-- And if you can't spell it, I don't think I'd trust your understanding of the legal ramifications of the doctrine either.

Not enough facts. Couple of options. Drop down and head shoot him so that the kids in the next room are not endangered. (lousy choice of firearm in my opinion, but that's the hypo I'm stuck with). Pelvis shot to break him down, assuming it won't penetrate and you can execute is a viable option to be considered. Or Charge the SOB and take him down and do it at point blank on the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)

Castile (historical region)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A former kingdom, Castile (Spanish: Castilla, pronounced [kasˈt̪iʎa] or [kasˈt̪iʝa]), gradually merged with its neighbors to become the Crown of Castile and later the Kingdom of Spain with the Crown of Aragon and the Crown of Navarre. In modern-day Spain, it is usually considered to comprise a part of the the autonomous community of Castilla y León in the north-west, and Castilla-La Mancha and Madrid in the center and south of the country, including sometimes Cantabria and La Rioja as well, for historical reasons. However, there are different versions about the exact boundaries of Castile, and since it lacks an official recognition, it has no official borders. Modern Spanish monarchs are numbered according to the system of Castile.

-- And if you can't spell it, I don't think I'd trust your understanding of the legal ramifications of the doctrine either.

Ladd,

Exactly WTF are you suggesting?

quote:

Exactly WTF are you suggesting?

WTF I'm suggesting is that I don't think I'd hire you to put together a "Castle Doctrine" defense for me to present before a jury. I don't think you understand the law as it's written.

I think mr. ladd is suggesting he knows how to wikipedia a word and so correct your spelling and nitpick but not really contribute to the topic. The castle kassle castel kessel doctrine added to the existing law that covered criminal acts occuring after dark and your obligation/options for force/deadly force in those situations

quote:

Ignored post by Wm.S.Ladd posted 21 May 2009 10:12

this is how easily such folks can be handled

Synopsis of Texas Castle Doctrine:

Senate Bill 378 amends provisions of the Penal Code and the Code of Criminal Procedure relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person. The bill creates a presumption of reasonableness for the belief of a person who takes such action that the use of force or deadly force to protect the actor was immediately necessary and provides that the presumption would be reasonable if the actor:

1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force or deadly force was used unlawfully and with force entered, or attempted to enter, the actor’s home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; unlawfully and with force removed, or attempted to remove, the actor from the home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or was committing or attempting to commit certain serious crimes;

2) did not provoke the person against whom the force or deadly force was used; and

3) was not otherwise engaged in certain criminal activity at the time the force or deadly force was used.

The bill provides that an actor who has a right to be present at the location where the force or deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at that time is not required to retreat before using force or deadly force.

Senate Bill 378 also provides immunity from civil liability for a personal injury or death resulting from the use of force or deadly force to a defendant who was justified under the law in using such force or deadly force.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Just a question, but what if in the half darkness you take the shot only to find you've killed LEO?

It turns out the LEO had been called by somebody on the park as there was an intruder about and entered your trailer as he had seen the door flapping in the wind..

Would the legal world fall in on the shooter, or would it be recognised as a terrible accident contributed to by the LEO not IDing himself?

LE would not enter the residence without announcing first, especially at night.

I'm in the "take a knee and apply appropriate force to the bad guy's CPU" school of thought on this one.

And as an LEO I very loudly announce my profession when entering a structure where folks might find it alarming to discover a stranger.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Synopsis of Texas Castle Doctrine:

Senate Bill 378 amends provisions of the Penal Code and the Code of Criminal Procedure relating to the use of force or deadly force in defense of a person. The bill creates a presumption of reasonableness for the belief of a person who takes such action that the use of force or deadly force to protect the actor was immediately necessary and provides that the presumption would be reasonable if the actor:

1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force or deadly force was used unlawfully and with force entered, or attempted to enter, the actor’s home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; unlawfully and with force removed, or attempted to remove, the actor from the home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or was committing or attempting to commit certain serious crimes;

2) did not provoke the person against whom the force or deadly force was used; and

3) was not otherwise engaged in certain criminal activity at the time the force or deadly force was used.

The bill provides that an actor who has a right to be present at the location where the force or deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at that time is not required to retreat before using force or deadly force.

Senate Bill 378 also provides immunity from civil liability for a personal injury or death resulting from the use of force or deadly force to a defendant who was justified under the law in using such force or deadly force.

A few years ago I remember news paper story about a Brit being shot and killed in Texas..

From what I can remember (and if you can believe the newspapers) he had his wife were on holiday and had hired a car...One evening they broke down and the guy approached a near by house to ask for help. It was dark but not overly late sort of 9pm or 10pm as I remember..

The guys goes up the drive to the house and up onto the porch and leans past an open screen door to knock on the main door of the house...

I don't know the details of what happened next, but the home owner shot and killed him through
the door...The case went to court but the homeowner was found "Not Guilty" in part based on the Castle Doctrine...

Obviously the devil is in the detail, and I don't know what the detail was, but it was an avoidable tragedy all the same...

Regards,

Peter

Pete,
If it were several years ago, it probably preceded the "Castle".
For some time now in Texas, trespass after dark has in general been no-bill by Grand Juries .
It relates back to a much older statute.

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:
Let's say you live in a trailer park. One night you wake up to find a man in your living room with a gun in his hand. You are at one end of the trailer and your kids are in bunk beds at the other end of trailer. He's standing between you and your kids room.

In less than 10 steps the intruder will be out of your sight, in the hall, and standing in the doorway to the kids room. Your wife is still in bed behind you. All you have is a 9mm with FMJ in your hand.

Well you DID say it's a trailer park. I'd probably know its the neighbour just come to see his kids on his way home from the bar. I know he wouldn't shoot the wife because he don't agree with shootin' kinfolk. He won't shoot me 'cause then he might have to pay child support. I'd tell him to keep his damn hands off my beer and shut the screen door when he leaves to keep the skeeters out.

Some threads just won't die!

Like the neighbour!

I don't know how you're going to awaken in the middle of the night in your bedroom and see a man with a gun in his hand in the living room. Even assuming you sleep with your room door open, it has to a) face the living room and b) there has to be enough light to see that he has a gun. How do you know it isn't the neighborhood drunk with a beer bottle in his hand? Are you awake? Could it be one of your kids with a toy gun, stuffed animal? Finally if it takes 10 steps for him to be out of sight, then someone has a big mobile home with a bend in the hallway. Most of them I've ever been in have straight hallways running the length of the trailer.

I fully realize the use of the Castle/self defense doctrine, but I'd prefer to know that I was shooting a bad guy and not a drunk or absolute worse case, one of my children or my wife (maybe she heard a noise outside, got her gun, went to look and is coming back to bed, do you know she's still in bed, did you check?). That has happened way too many times as is. Personal history would come into play....for instance, is someone or some group out to get me? If that was the case, I'd likely take my best shot without any warning, assuming I was certain it was not one of my children. Other that that, bottom line, I don't know what I'd do, I'd have to be there and some of that would depend EXACTLY on my position, how much of the open area I can see and cover with my weapon, etc., but I'd slightly lean towards trying to get him to retreat or surrender. The command voice of "STOP RIGHT THERE or I'm going to kill your worthless ass" might get him to either stop or turn and run out the door. As mentioned above, if he does ANYTHING ELSE, then you have to take the shot. Unless you're a magician with a pistol, I think the recommendation for a headshot, probably in the dark, probably with poor lighting on your sights (after all, we know you didn't turn on the light in your bedroom to silhouette you), probably with a moving target, is just so much "who shot John" talk. I can make that shot standing up with a good position, etc. I used to shoot thrown bottles all the time with a pistol but in the dark, half awake, scared, adrenaline pumping, thinking of angles for kids, etc. nahh....I don't think so. I'd say you have to take a center mass shot and hope for the best. A missed headshot is a helluva lot worse than a center mass hit. A multi-shot gunfight with you shooting towards your kids room is the last thing you want.

PS: your home defense weapon sucks. Almost none of the problems outlined above would apply if you had a shotgun with #6 shot in it.

how about we just give the turd a full clip from a thompson, beat the shit out of the body, drag it outside & burn it then piss on the ashes

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
how about we just give the turd a full clip from a thompson, beat the shit out of the body, drag it outside & burn it then piss on the ashes

Take her wedding ring off before you burn her. You might get a few bucks for it at the pawn shop.