Me, my dad, and my son (who's 6) were headed to the shooting range. I put my Colt 1911 on my hip. We stopped at the gas station on the way to grab some water and snacks. My dad goes CC and he said I should untuck my shirt and cover it, but I said not today, lets see how it goes. The girls at the counter didn't seem to notice as we were getting our things. They both got quiet as we approached the counter, but never said a word about the pistol. I said, "Good morning. How ya'll doing?" One said "Fine" and they seemed to be OK after that. Everything seemed to be going fine.

Then, as I was getting out my wallet, the chief of police walked in and my heart stopped. My pistol was on my hip facing the door. I said, "Morning." and he replied back the same. I couldn't see his reactions as he walked behind me, but my dad said he did a double- take and paused to get a better look. Then got in line behind us for a pack of smokes. We got our stuff and headed out with no problems. It wasn't til about a mile down road when my heart started back up. I think it was longer for my dad.

Is open carry a new thing in Louisiana?

LA has been an OC state for who knows how long. It's rare to see someone OC. Sightings are more common in north Louisiana than in south Louisiana, but mostly during hunting season.

Open carry is all about context. It works in rural and recreational areas, but it gets gawks and stares in urban venues.

Then too, if you look like a convenience store hold-up you're going to get comments. If you look like you're doing outdoor recreation and the gun is appropriate then it's less of an issue.

Even if OC was legal here in Texas, I still wouldn't because "I" wouldn't be comfortable. In my opinion, OC is just asking for someone to say something, and by Griz's post, it doesn't sound like he or his Dad are comfortable with it either.

I can CC all day and go anywhere, and I am completely at ease and without worrying about stares and comments.

I do not open carry "in public".

I prefer that no one knows I am carrying.

I also take care to be sure I do not "print" as well.

"I do not open carry.....I do not print as well." Bingo.

Open carry is tactically foolish, unless you're out in the woods somewhere and the threat comes from wildlife.

Dead man walking....

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:
Even if OC was legal here in Texas, I still wouldn't because "I" wouldn't be comfortable. In my opinion, OC is just asking for someone to say something, and by Griz's post, it doesn't sound like he or his Dad are comfortable with it either.

I can CC all day and go anywhere, and I am completely at ease and without worrying about stares and comments.

It WAS my first time so yes, it was one hell of an experience.

TWL,
Foolish?
For our parish, which we call Little Africa, I want some to see me OC. So when I CC they'll still wonder if I'm armed.

There is a group of zealots here in Michigan that are really pushing the open carry thing. They want attention, media coverage, and hope for the chance at a lawsuit. They are openly packing at festivals/carnivals, parks, and other places where they hope they draw attention.

I see it not having a happy ending. I see it resulting in some 'laws' to address the issue that aren't going to help our cause. I'm a big believer in the 'shall issue' concealed carry laws and the progress made in recent years is going to stall because of this.

NRA Life Member

P.S. And Griz78, what happens when the other residents of your 'Little Africa' region that perhaps you don't like so well start marching around packing AK's everywhere...how is that an improvement? If open carry of a handgun is okay then open carry of a long gun must be okay too? So when your wife/kids go to the Dairy Queen everybody in line is openly locked and loaded? This is a good thing? Hope nobody over-reacts if a car backfires.

In my view open carry is a political issue, not a tactial one. I am not interested in the politics of open carry.

From a tactical perspective it's foolish. Sorry Griz, I appreciate your posts and have learned from a few of them, but you're wrong on this one. I'd hate to read about you getting a bullet in the back of your head. The only positive thing about such a scenario is that you'd never see it coming.

Can anyone show me a self defense class syllabus--from any source---where it's recommended one walks around in public with a sandwich sign saying, "Look at me! Shoot me!"?

Be smart out there guys. Open carry is foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
There is a group of zealots here in Michigan that are really pushing the open carry thing. They want attention, media coverage, and hope for the chance at a lawsuit. They are openly packing at festivals/carnivals, parks, and other places where they hope they draw attention.

I see it not having a happy ending. I see it resulting in some 'laws' to address the issue that aren't going to help our cause. I'm a big believer in the 'shall issue' concealed carry laws and the progress made in recent years is going to stall because of this.

NRA Life Member

P.S. And Griz78, what happens when the other residents of your 'Little Africa' region that perhaps you don't like so well start marching around packing AK's everywhere...how is that an improvement? If open carry of a handgun is okay then open carry of a long gun must be okay too? So when your wife/kids go to the Dairy Queen everybody in line is openly locked and loaded? This is a good thing? Hope nobody over-reacts if a car backfires.

I'm not looking to get a following or change laws. And I don't go around the state or parish showing off to everyone. I'm very selective. Only certain places. Those fanatics you mentioned are just crazy to carry it that far.

TWL,
I see it as mostly mental. The first time I saw an OCer, my first thought was "Don't mess with her."

That was the first time (maybe the last, but probably not). I'm not gonna go into the bad areas looking to start shit. You make it sound like there are people on a mission to kill OCers.

Griz:

With respect,

I doubt there are people "on a mission" as you put it. But it is a fact that there are thousands of sophisticated career criminals living throughout the country who are very, very skilled in what they do. They are the quiet ones, not the punks. They are not intimiidated. In reality, most of them simply snort a laugh when they see an OC type. To them it's a joke. They are the ones a guy has to worry about.

While in prison and at home they practice their trade, which among other things includes surveillance, counter-surveillance, and gun take-away techniques. They look for guys who OC. They'll make an assessment. Maybe they'll move on, maybe they won't. It depends on what they have planned. If your presence interfers with their plan, you will be the first with a bullet in the back of the head. And they don't even need their own gun. They are skilled enough to step innocently close to you, execute a diversionary strike, disarm and kill you with your own gun. It's no big feat. And you'll never see it coming.

John Q Citizen conducting business downtown in an OC mode has increased, not decreased his level of vulnerability.

Viable personal defense is serious business. It's tactical. And perhaps the best tactic one can execute in this context is stealth.

Well put TWL.

CC is a matter of personal safety and I am persuaded (no feelings involved) that one should always play the cards close to the vest. Just as we do not display our fine valueables in our homes windows, nor should we display our safety tools-serves only to defeat the intentionally stacked deck when needed.

In my discussions w/OC types, most have never been in harms way and think that the mere visible presence of a heater (all snapped in and secure) will protect them. Likley not the case.

While I am all for firearms freedoms, I would never OC other than in the field or farm. If I have a visible handgun, I'd likely be FORCED to play on the other party's terms, if concealed, it is always MY choice of when where and how I respond. Advantage me. Yep, I chose to win, not fight on other's terms. Too much at stake. Me and mine.

I'm gonna stick my nose into this and stand up for Griz78. I think you guys are giving Griz a hard time over nada. Griz, his son, and his dad were on their way to meet me and my son at the range on the morning in question. How many career criminals are out and about at 7:45 on a Sunday morning?

We were meeting at the pistol range that morning so Griz strapped on his 1911 and headed out. They stopped at a convenience store on the way. Not a big deal. This story was the first thing he relayed when they arrived, and I assure you they weren't bragging about it, more like oops, that was a bit uncomfortable.

I'd also be shocked beyond belief if the type of mastermind ninja criminals you are speaking of are present in St. Landry Parish, one of the poorer in the state.

Chill out guys. Have you never experimented a bit just to test the waters?

I've never seen the attraction to the military style rifles and the desire to spray lead everywhere. I do, however support the rights of those who are attracted to that sort of shooting. OC is legal, after all. And, Griz is neither espousing that he'll do this all the time, in any situation, nor that you should too. He is also not saying that he feels that OC is an advantage. It is merely a right that we have and can choose to exercise.

All the talk of 'tactics' and super power, disciplined, highly intelligent and motivated, ninja criminals is a bit paranoid and unrealistic for my taste, but to each his own. I understand that some of you come from LE backgrounds and I won't argue the point, but any criminals operating on a higher level are the minority of a minority. Most criminals are dysfunctional morons with major development issues and character flaws, this doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous, but I think they would avoid a known threat. Isn't that how they tend to pick their victims?

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I'm gonna stick my nose into this and stand up for Griz78. I think you guys are giving Griz a hard time over nada. Griz, his son, and his dad were on their way to meet me and my son at the range on the morning in question. How many career criminals are out and about at 7:45 on a Sunday morning?

We were meeting at the pistol range that morning so Griz strapped on his 1911 and headed out. They stopped at a convenience store on the way. Not a big deal. This story was the first thing he relayed when they arrived, and I assure you they weren't bragging about it, more like oops, that was a bit uncomfortable.

I'd also be shocked beyond belief if the type of mastermind ninja criminals you are speaking of are present in St. Landry Parish, one of the poorer in the state.

Chill out guys. Have you never experimented a bit just to test the waters?

I've never seen the attraction to the military style rifles and the desire to spray lead everywhere. I do, however support the rights of those who are attracted to that sort of shooting. OC is legal, after all. And, Griz is neither espousing that he'll do this all the time, in any situation, nor that you should too. He is also not saying that he feels that OC is an advantage. It is merely a right that we have and can choose to exercise.

All the talk of 'tactics' and super power, disciplined, highly intelligent and motivated, ninja criminals is a bit paranoid and unrealistic for my taste, but to each his own. I understand that some of you come from LE backgrounds and I won't argue the point, but any criminals operating on a higher level are the minority of a minority. Most criminals are dysfunctional morons with major development issues and character flaws, this doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous, but I think they would avoid a known threat. Isn't that how they tend to pick their victims?

What he said.

Guys,
I'm not an OC fanatic.
I'm not trying to get everyone to OC.
I was just telling about how Murphy Law chose to give me a scare with my first OC.
I firmly believe in CC as first choice.
Thank you for your concerns, but I'll be fine.

Any more of this and it's

I got no beef with Griz78 nor am bad-mouthing him. Him and I probably got more in common than we don't.

But what I do see coming is a real shit-storm when our dipshit 'law-makers' address this issue. I can't see much good coming out of it when the media starts making a deal out of it.

I've been (legally) carrying concealed weapons since 1973. The past 20+ years it's every day. As for all the tactical stuff, I simply want to have 'surprise' on my side.

TWL is correct, the turds practice disarming tactics "in the yard", in their cells etc. all the time! How much time do you/have you spent on weapon retention?

While I'm all for the 2nd amendment, NRA Life Member etc, I'm not going to carry open when in plain clothes or off duty. It's tactically stupid to do so.

griz:

I respect your decisions. They are yours to make. I will happily step into the breach and defend your right to make them. I hope the best for you. Best wishes.

daniel:

Whether there are career criminals in griz's neighborhood or not misses the point: and makes my point. Most people have no idea what is out there.

My views are not paranoid, they are reality based. With respect to personal defense for the private citizen, it's about tactics. Solid tactics will prevail. Stealth is the best tactic. All else follows. Doesn't matter where you are.

Open carry is tactically foolish. Take a moment. It's foolish.

We really have two discussions here.

The public debate surrounding open carry is political, not tactical. The core of the debate about open carry is clouded in various interpretations of the 2nd Amendment. Such debate has nothing to do with the practical, real life concept of personal defense. Two different issues.

I wish you all the best. Tom

leave the oc unloaded, carry another concealed, when they disarm you, surprise

quote:

Originally posted by RVL III:
TWL is correct, the turds practice disarming tactics "in the yard", in their cells etc. all the time! How much time do you/have you spent on weapon retention?

While I'm all for the 2nd amendment, NRA Life Member etc, I'm not going to carry open when in plain clothes or off duty. It's tactically stupid to do so.

I'm quite proficient Hand to Hand. I also know that the point of carrying a gun is safety=distance from the enemy. If you actually get close enough to a BG to be disarmed, you weren't using your primary defensive tool, your brain.

TWL,

I know that you come from a LEO background. How many of these highly intelligent/proficient/motivated ninja criminals have you experience with. I'm sure there have been a handful in your career, just as I'm sure that 99.9997% of the BGs you've dealt with didn't fit this description. Most are druggies blundering through life. Again, I'm not trying to disrespect your experience, or say that anyone with bad intentions is less than dangerous. I'm just saying that in the vast majority of potential confrontations, the sight of a gun would deter the BG. Obviously, there could be exceptions in the case of a sociopath looking for suicide by cop and trying to take as many with him as possible. But even in the more notable of those cases, like Virginia Tech and Ft. Hood, the shooters have purposefully chosen places where they knew people weren't armed. BG's primarily look for victims who are weak and alone, right? You don't hear about the ten body builders who were mugged last night by the lone crackhead looking to score. You hear about a woman, or elderly person alone in a dark place.

Again, I maintain that most of the time, a BG walks into a bank with the intention of robbing it, and sees four guys with guns on their hips in the lobby, he changes his plan.

If everyone was armed all the time (OC or CC), and everyone knew it, I think we'd see crime go waaaayyyyy down. I could be wrong.

I agree that there are times and places for everything and certainly there are situations where OC is more of a political statement than anything else. Griz78's case is not one of these.

BTW, I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, and don't OC personally, so let's be sure and keep this discussion civil.

I thought I had been civil.
Good day, Sir.

Sorry, I wasn't implying that anyone had been less than civil, or taken to any personal attacks. I just don't want things to go that way, as they seem to be a fair bit lately in other forums. If you've been in the Classifieds lately you know what I mean. I apologize if anyone thought I was saying otherwise.

I also wonder why, if OC is so tactically foolish, do cops/security/military carry that way?

Can't speak for the military or security personell, but why do cops carry OC? Cuz they are the ones you are expected to see. Public likes to see officers around in uniform and so armed. And a goodly number of them got other pieces concealed.

Then there are the other ones that you don't see. The ones going about their jobs wearing jeans and a shirt of some type. Maybe they are some form of investigators, narcs, warrant enforcement officers, fugative apprehension guys, surveillance guys, etc. They might be bearded dudes in bib overalls or grey haired rather fat dudes. And I can guarantee you, (as I'm one of the latter described types) that they don't want the bad guys to even suspect they have a .40 in a coat pocket and/or a P3AT in the pocket their hand is in.

Like I said, I like surprise on my side.

Good thread Griz...certainly has been a lot of interesting views being presented.

It's the hat they fear.

I'm out of this discussion. I had no intentions for this forum to go this route. It's already been covered in the "Do You Open Carry" forum.

at least griz had the balls to try it then post his experience, i read these posts more for entertainment. it brings out the experts and paranoid

I want to be concealed but, in the south, in August, it is hard to conceal a full size auto under a shirt with shorts on. If someone sees it oh well, if they don't then all the better. As for the ninja criminals, I didn't hear of any cops sidled up to and shot in the head with their own guns, at least this year, and they open carry... If a ninja criminal has targeted you, unless you are real good or real lucky, you are dead eitherway. If they did thier homework like you are saying, they would have seen you:
buy ammo
buy components
go to the range
find your post on the internet
They know you have a gun and you are still just as dead. sorry.

OC still isn't cool in texas, yet, but I'll wait, and keep praying that I never get put in the possition where I am forced to shot someone. I came damn close 2 years ago, I still get the shakes thinking about how close a teenage girl came to ending up on the wrong end of my 40. 2:30 am on a Sunday morning my wife wakes me up saying someone is beating on the door. I grab my 40 and head to the door. As I come out of the bedroom and around the couch, a shoulder length dark haired individual is facing away from me, closing the front door behind them. I do not know:
are they armed
how many are in the house
what their intentions are

I raised by gun to take a center mass shot as the person turns around and starts walking towards me.
Now, the gun is pointed at her, and I am starting to squeeze the trigger when I notice: girl, young, no visible weapon, glazed look on her face.
Still a threat but not as bad as 1 second before. Verbal command to get the F out of my house. She looks at me and the gun and slurrs "nnnnoo". OK, reassessment, drunk or stoned, still a threat and approaching me. Two more verbal commands to stop or leave the house NOW each followed by "nnnnoo". I have now retreated to the bedroom door frame and have decided that no-one is getting past me to my wife, no way, no how. Now she has halved the distance between us, close enough for a CNS shot to stop this follishness if she keeps coming. I am figuring on one last warning and if she comes around the couch, she gets dropped. (my line in the sand). I still dont know if there are others in the house already. Ranch type house, seperated bedrooms. She sits on the couch??? Wife is on the phone with 911 and I can hear that conversation going "well". she sits for 2-3 minutes and gets up and leaves through the front door. Sherrif gets there 25 minutes later, I have cleared the house. Wife has 12 ga defender w buckshot. as I entered a room we talked the whole time, if I stopped talking she was to open fire through the walls with 7 rounds spaced throught the room and retreat to the beadroom/reload and wait on the police.

At the time, we din't have kids so I knew there wasn't anyone in the rooms that should be there. I now have a 9 month old and if she would have come between my an my child she was toast.

Don't mean to hijack, but Rine Everett's post reminded me of a crazy situation I was in quite a few years ago.

A buddy of mine, since 4th grade, was getting married. It was an out of town wedding for me, so I was going to crash on the couch of another good buddy's lil sis, (sorta like my lil sis too) Katie's boyfriend Van. After the wedding, reception, and after party, I'd met a pretty little thing and we split to have some fun (this was years before I met my wife). I'd never been to Van's place, so he gave me directions ending with (I swear) "it's the one on the corner".
Long story short, I was headed to Van's couch around 4 or 5am of what was now Sunday Morning.
I found the house just fine. Back door was unlocked, and there was a girl in the first bedroom who looked just like Katie. I took off my tux and laid down on the couch. I was, however, restless and had a very strong sense that something wasn't quite right. I'm pretty good about listening to that little voice inside, so after ten minutes or so, I decided to walk outside and have a look around, since there weren't as many cars at this house as I'd expected. Low and Behold all of my friends cars were next door, at the 2nd house from the corner.
I had walked into a total stranger's unlocked home and almost went to sleep on their couch. Imagine their surprise to wake up to a half naked stranger crashed on their couch. Van, who later married Katie, still has a helluva laugh about this to this day. I still thank God that those folks were not light sleepers and didn't have a dog.

Louisiana is open carry but i havn't done it.

Daniel

Similar sotry.

p at Warner Springs Ranch, where the accommodations are cabins. I was to bunk with my gf's brother, "Bill" who was in cabin 51. The gf's parents were there too so all proprieties had to be observed. Our evening was over, so I walked into the dark cabin 51, and the man in the bed said, "Yo", Bill? says I? "No"- oh sorry.......turns out Bill was in cabin 15!

Glad the guy in 51 was a mellow dude!

404:

I love you, my brother, but you may have been the first to die.

And then we have the 4 cops killed in Washington.

Come on, guys. Put your egos down for a moment and give it some thought. This ain't tiddly winks.

Stay safe.......Tom

Hey TWL I appreciate your comments. I am thinking of getting a ccp here in OH. Have had one in many other places I've lived, but here they make you take a course. I often wonder how much it would cost to defend oneself in a "good shoot". In a bad one it doesn't really matter, does it?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Can't speak for the military or security personell, but why do cops carry OC? Cuz they are the ones you are expected to see. Public likes to see officers around in uniform and so armed. And a goodly number of them got other pieces concealed.

Then there are the other ones that you don't see. The ones going about their jobs wearing jeans and a shirt of some type. Maybe they are some form of investigators, narcs, warrant enforcement officers, fugative apprehension guys, surveillance guys, etc. They might be bearded dudes in bib overalls or grey haired rather fat dudes. And I can guarantee you, (as I'm one of the latter described types) that they don't want the bad guys to even suspect they have a .40 in a coat pocket and/or a P3AT in the pocket their hand is in.

Like I said, I like surprise on my side.

Good thread Griz...certainly has been a lot of interesting views being presented.

I agree, leting them KNOW you are armed is throwing away a tactical advantage.

It's being excessively "fair"

Fighting fair is a receipe for defeat.

If I shoot someone I want them to be suprised, because if they are suprised it's unlikely that they have a chance to shoot at me first.

I don't want to shoot anyone, but if it becomes necissary I certainly don't want to get shot myself in the process.


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