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For woods walking in the Catskill Mountains of NY which gun would you choose S&W 625 JM 4" barrel 45 ACP or S&W 686 7 shot 3" barrel 357 Mag. Biggest critters around are black bears. And what would you load it with. | ||
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Althoug I own both,I would opt with the 45 ACP. When in the early 70's I did a lot of backpacking in Big Bend (where you are not to carry weapons;sorry) I carried a Charter Arms bulldog in 44 spl. which was the most potent calibre revolver per weight at that time.IMO,velocity has its place but there is nothing so permanent as a slow moving freight train,espesially with another additional 60G.s of bullet. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Either well work in your situation. Chose the one you shoot the best. I have carried both a 1911 45 and a 686. In Northern Wis. that have the same critters plus wolves. I carry many different calibers and don't feel under gunned. As far a bullets for woods work I prefer bullets that give 18 inches or more of penetration in ballistic gel. Here is some good info for you. https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/...h-pistols-97_25.html Situational awareness and the willingness to recognize danger. Then take appropriate action is far more important then the firearm and or caliber. | |||
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interesting. i worked there for a summer in 1969 after my freshman year at sul ross in alpine. | |||
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For Bear defense- The one of the above revolvers that you handle/ shoot the best- With Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Outdoorsman Load https://www.buffalobore.com/in...[search]=outdoorsman or if you hand load CEB solids https://cuttingedgebullets.com...lets/handgun-bullets | |||
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With respect to handgun effectiveness on wild animals, I am a huge believer in the 2nd part of the old adage of "speed is fine, accuracy is final". Pick the one you shoot best. If you need to use a handgun against a wild animal, it is likely going to happen fast and under stress. Pick the one that is easiest for you to shoot in less than perfect circumstances. Shot placement is going to be everything. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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For any outdoor activity I would much prefer a 357 mag to a 45 ACP....The 357 is simply a better killer of man or beast, contrary to some false publications by dreamers..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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After a three week wait for my paperwork to come back I picked up my S&W 686+ with a 3" barrel. took it to the range yesterday with some loads I had laying around 170 gr Kieth SWC with a good dose of 2400. They did 1146 fps. And were right on point of aim at 25 yds without touching the sights. My hottest 45 ACP load is Hornady factory +P 230 gr XTP at 900 fps from my S&W 625JM. The 45 is much more comfortable to shoot. | |||
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Both loads well work just fine. | |||
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Indeed. The .45 is a slow moving freight train while the 357 has the advantage of high velocity shock value.Yes,both are effective in their own realms.In the real world;I would not like to be hit by either. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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I always carried a 45 in town and in the back alleys of our cities and for running search warrents, but once outside in the country or laying in on the Rio grande waiting for a load of dope, I always opted for my 6" Combat S&W with proper loads in all cases..I also carried the S&W raiding Heroin labs in Mexico. For hunting game like deer I would opt for a 45 Long Colt or 44 magnum.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Bears are hard to stop, especially with frontal shots. I would go with a lightweight .44 Mag/Spl like the Tarus 44 Tracker. Make sure you have it in a secure holster. You will probably never have to use it, but if you do recoil will not be a problem. The best weapon for a charging bear would be a 12 ga shotgun shooting 00 buck. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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I've never shot a bear. But I'd reckon that penetration is what is the best medicine. Your .45 ACP won't give that. But your .357 Magnum, even in that 3" barrel, will give more. Neither are I think ideal. | |||
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Speaking of the shotgun option,I recall Hemingway writing about how he would provoke a leopard to charge + then take the top of his head off with 12 G. 7 1/2 bird shot loads. Might be B.S. but I would'nt put it past him. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Having shot several bears with handguns. With proper bullets at above 800fps the 45 well give enough penetration. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6qCeZtNgRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JknqVQDslZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22COKjH22y8 | |||
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At the ranges where Buck is the best one still has to aim due to the small pattern size. So a slug or a rifle is better. | |||
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I think the point of the enquiery was what is preferable for a hiking sojourn. I doubt most would be carrying a shotgun under those circumstances even that data is valid.I know that for me when I used to backpack in The Big Bend Park (where firearms were forbidden)I carried a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 spl.This was the early 70's + at that time it was the most firepower per weight out there.When hiking across the desert,weight is an issue.Water was paramount. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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I think I found a carry load for the 45 ACP: Hornady factory +P 230 gr. XTP at 909 fps. out of the 4" Model 625. I'm trying to decide between a 180XTP at 1123 fps, or a 158 gr cast SWC at 1168 fps for the 357 Mag. Both shoot pretty well. Unfortunately they don't group to the same POA. Gun is a 3" Model 686. | |||
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Of the 357 loads From what I have seen neither one well expand much and both well give you adequate penetration. I would chose the cheaper one. 180gr gel test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ukywag3tfM The 45xtp might be a little lacking in penetration running only about 14 inches or so. But sure beats nothing. 45xtp gel tests https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl_anGfqnAI | |||
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Thanks p dog shooter, but I'm shooting the 230 gr XTP not the 200 gr. | |||
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I do like the 230G. It is a slow moving freight train. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Here is the 230 gr results don't know how the 200gr got put there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ct33tKvpKo | |||
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The 125 gr. Federal from a .357 will expand and penetrate on a man quite well and mostly exit and kill well indeed..I have witnessed that on a few occasions and used the bullet as evidence of course. I always gave a few boxes of that to the Mex Feds and they loved them and appreciated it, had nothing but good things to say about them and the Fed 250 gr. jacketed JHPs as well.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| Administrator |
Accuracy in hunting trumps anything else. Pick the one you shoot better. | |||
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That's a valid point. Power means nothing if you don't hit the intended target. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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I wish I could like the .357 again, but I can’t. It’s just a violent cartridge. I sold every .357 due to this. No, it’s not the recoil. In fact, I prefer my .44 mags. The .357 is just loud and like a damn Roman candle going off in your hand. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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My M686 3" does bark and bellow more than my M625 4". I've got two loads for the 357 that shoot to the same POA at 18 yds. 180 gr Hornady XTP at 1123 fps 170 gr cast Kieth bullet at 1173 fps both are over 500 fpe. | |||
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DCS, Your post is against all that's holy, a 357 is not, cannot be, as violent as a 41 or 44 magnum as to blast or recoil..Must be mental on your part,  but mental is real!!Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Blasphemy, I know! I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I was comparing my M686 357 to my 4" M625 45ACP. The 45ACP is much more pleasant to shoot, even with +P 230gr loads. | |||
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My .44 mag 4 3/4” SBH is quite pleasant. My 629 8 3/8” is fine, but the .357s aré animals. I’ll shoot a .454, .460, or .500 and be ok, but I wish I could like the .357. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I shot all three of those also a 357 is a pussy cat compared to them. Now some of the short barrel lite weight 357's can be nasty but they are usable | |||
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That is true. I must admit that if you are really wanting to put money into this you can always have the 357 ported + there for another $100.00 or so you have a more (comfortable should I say?) revolver. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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My last .357 was 6” Python. As stated, the bigger boys were easier and more enjoyable to shoot. I don’t think I could ever Magna Port a Python. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Im thinking some on this thread are delusional, and need help fast..a 44 magnum is twice as brutal as a 357 magnum, ask any cop but Harry!! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Back to the actual question. I would choose the 357 you mentioned. I carry a 357 for the same purpose and had to kill a big boar black bear up close with it. Only one shot, 158 JHP handloaded to normal levels. 45 may be as good or even better, but I know what works now. | |||
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Then you have answered your own question. If you know what works for you then that is all that matters. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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As a minor addendum, I might add that while looking for advice from others is an admirable design + in that context remember the quote from Otto Von Bismarck, "I don't want to learn from my mistakes; I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others." Besides in this world, only 2 things are free, advice + kittens; + sometimes not the advice in the long run. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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