Much of the 9mm vs 45 discussion is based on shooting in the open. But how do things change when the bad guys are shooting from behind doors, windshields, doors, e.g., drive-by shooters.

- Does the 9mm FMJ penetrate better due to higher velocity, or does the mass of the 45 punch through and still have enough energy to hurt the bad guy?

- A 9mm JHP might perform as well as 45 FMJ in the open, but if penetrating a windshield, will the JHP bullets break apart?

How does shooting through things change the equation?

Hunter308

Through glass:

Heavy bullets fly straighter. Shooting into the car the bullets go down, shooting out they go up. Good bullets hold together well, cheap bullets fall apart. FMJ will often shed it's jacket.

Through steel:

high velocity bullets like 9mm and 357 penetrate well. .45 often does not. Good bullets hold together. FMJs almost all lose their jackets. There is often less deflection than with glass.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter308:
Much of the 9mm vs 45 discussion is based on shooting in the open. But how do things change when the bad guys are shooting from behind doors, windshields, doors, e.g., drive-by shooters.

- Does the 9mm FMJ penetrate better due to higher velocity, or does the mass of the 45 punch through and still have enough energy to hurt the bad guy?

- A 9mm JHP might perform as well as 45 FMJ in the open, but if penetrating a windshield, will the JHP bullets break apart?

How does shooting through things change the equation?

Hunter308

My advise is to get out of the gang, then you don't have to worry about drive bys.

Perry

I've come very close to shooting someone through glass, he decided he didn't want to be shot that day though and turned away. It's a real concern.

Windsheilds are tough stuff one needs stoutly built bullets to do it. Lots of bullets break up on windshelid glass

The rule of thumb is that when shooting thru any barrier, the projectile will tend to exit the barrier w/ less deflection the closer to perpendicular the bullet is to the barrier when it strikes it.

240gr Swc in an 4in S&W 44 mag works through a windshield--

but its LOUD very loud

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

My advise is to get out of the gang, then you don't have to worry about drive bys.

Perry

You're kidding, right?

They shoot into crowds of innocent people who happen to be at a party, a church, a mall, a baseball game, or a bus stop.. What the hell does that have to do with getting into or out of a gang?

BEST TO BREAK IT WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER FIRST....

Having shot through a "few" windshields in my day, I can tell you that it's very umpredictable...be close and try to minimumize the angle....even if the bullet dosen't hit your target, it will shower his face with a cloud of stinging/blinding, high-velocity glass.

Makes quite a bloddy mess...

The question I havent seen answered here is--how much difference does it make if you are shooting in vs out?

My comment above re 44 mag was shooting out-

SSR

Shooting a 44 Mag inside a vehicle pointed at the windshield 12" infront of your ears, without hearing protection?

What would that do to the vehicle occupants? Wouldn't it be about like a concussion grenade going off next to you?

quote:

The question I havent seen answered here is--how much difference does it make if you are shooting in vs out?

First bullet fired just puts a hole through it. Second bullet fired takes most of the windscreen with it I was told by those that have done it.

Antelope Sniper
Yes Avoid shooting in an enclosed space if at all possible.

Mike is giving you good advice. I have permenant damage to both ears after firing my 9mm whil in the cement hallways of a Housing Project..

I don't think anyone can tell you what is going to happen to bullt traj when firing through a windshiels.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Antelope Sniper
Yes Avoid shooting in an enclosed space if at all possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Shooting a 44 Mag inside a vehicle pointed at the windshield 12" infront of your ears, without hearing protection?

What would that do to the vehicle occupants? Wouldn't it be about like a concussion grenade going off next to you?

You DONT do it for fun- and yes its loud but not like a concussion grenade. you can maintain control.

SSR

A good basic plan is...
IF you have to shoot through a windshield, or any other glass, whether you are shooting IN or shooting OUT, is to shoot a LOT, accurately of course...

Also, I have "noticed" IF, you are shooting under pressure, in a real deal, the noise will not bother you, it will not be an issue...

Not sure how well this applies, but a while back at work the question came up as to how bullet proof polycarbonate was. Anyway we shot a 1/2" think sheet with a variety of handgun calibers.

Surprisingly the 45 ACP as well as a 32 ACP bounced off the plastic. However 9mm, 22 LR and all the others we tested punched right through.

I have a friend in law enforcement here in France. He tells me that in a recent shoot-out the good guys were using 9mm with Gold Dot bullets. They shot 14 shots a BMW X5, none penetrated through the windshield (apparently all were simply deflected because of the windshield angle), and only two penetrated through a side window. The perps got away in another vehicle.

Conclusion, don't really on a bullet going through a windshield.

quote:

Originally posted by 56hawk:
Not sure how well this applies, but a while back at work the question came up as to how bullet proof polycarbonate was. Anyway we shot a 1/2" think sheet with a variety of handgun calibers.

Surprisingly the 45 ACP as well as a 32 ACP bounced off the plastic. However 9mm, 22 LR and all the others we tested punched right through.

Which is part of the reason Texas DPS went with the .357Sig.
Several years ago, I went to a wound ballistics class put on by CCI/Speer. The hardest thing to defeat AND predict bullet travel after impact is car window glass. Glass being struck at a compound angle is not easy to defeat.

Well constructed, small to medium caliber, high velocity projectiles are---generally---more effectively used to defeat automobile glass than are other means. Generally.

When shit happens spontaneously and all you have is a handgun, it is best to shoot several rounds quickly, in order to clear the barrier, so that you can then put accurate fire on the target.

In pre-planned operations, when, for example, the need to assault a vehicle or an aircraft is anticipated, a means of "breaching" the target is included in the assault plan, just as in the case of an assault on a structure. In the case of a vehicle or an aircraft, when it is anticipated that it will be necessary to shoot through glass or other similar material, planners sometimes include tactics that will "breach" the barrier from a distance with a round such as a 7.62, or even a shotgun slug, depending on conditions and mission objectives.

I have shot through auto glass from both inside and outside, with a variety of firearms and ammo types, with mixed results. It's never a sure thing.

I havn't used them on glass, but I would be tempted to use Barnes or General Bullet solids if i wanted to penetrate barriers. Even if the petals peel off, a solid copper core at fairly high velocity would seem a good bet. I've fired both barnes XPB and General bullet 140gr HP in my .357 mag and they shoot accurately and penetrate deep.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Shooting a 44 Mag inside a vehicle pointed at the windshield 12" infront of your ears, without hearing protection?

What would that do to the vehicle occupants? Wouldn't it be about like a concussion grenade going off next to you?

my buddy let off a round off his 8mm rem mag one evening while sliding it back in between the front seats of his 75 bronco after a muley hunt. Found the bullet later in the bell housing. That was quite the concussion.

quote:

Through steel:
FMJs almost all lose their jackets. There is often less deflection than with glass.

I was a victim of the 4th of July free-for-all around here and got a .380 FMJ through the rear door on my crew cab.

Went straight through and was stopped by the window guide inside the door. It was found lying in the bottom of the door when the inside door panel was removed.

The bullet looked perfect enough to reload.

Some of you may recall Winchester designed the Black Talon for better windshield penetration. Everyone knows that story. Too bad it happened, because LEO's could have made good use of it.

Black Talon is branded Ranger now. They droped the black coating also. I'm not sure if they changed the bullet itself.

Extensive testing on windshield revealed most light caliber hand gun loads would ricochet off unless it was close to 90 degree. Larger heavier bullet from handgun fared better however if the angle was great ricochet would occur, side windows different story since they are less angled thinner and non laminated. Rifle bullets different story however light fast bullet still will glance off, rule of thumb the heavier the bullet or the faster the bullet the better chance of penetration. 12 gauge slug goes through anything, several fired slug penetrated a steel bumper through the trunk back seat and ended in the front seat or the dash board. the only caliber of full penetration reliably was the 50BMG bullet know to go through he entire car including the engine at times
The fed agency I worked from prohibited shooting at cars with our issued weapons which where the 38 through 9mm because of this

quote:

The fed agency I worked from prohibited shooting at cars with our issued weapons which where the 38 through 9mm because of this

I see that Lemont Ill is only 10 minutes away from the Downers Grove office of the ATF. You didn't happen to work for that corrupt orginization did you?

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:
Black Talon is branded Ranger now. They droped the black coating also. I'm not sure if they changed the bullet itself.

A current Ranger Talon bullet is two generations newer than a Black Talon.

Given some of the concerns raised here about carry calibres, it makes me glad my truck gun is a Ruger Redhawk in .454 Casull. I bet it would penetrate a windshield.

Federal, Law Enforment, Tatical Bonded

http://le.atk.com/general/fede.../tacticalbonded.aspx

I too had heard that the 223 would often ricochet off the front windshield whereas the 7.62x39 would penetrate under the same conditions.
Peter.

quote:

Given some of the concerns raised here about carry calibres, it makes me glad my truck gun is a Ruger Redhawk in .454 Casull. I bet it would penetrate a windshield.

A while back on TV some guys were shooting cars with the .454. It was shooting clean through.

Last weekend at the junk yard I saw a vehicle with 17 bullet strikes on the windshield. Not a single one penetrated. I don't know what they were from, but I don't think it was a .454.

quote:

Originally posted by raamw:
Extensive testing on windshield revealed most light caliber hand gun loads would ricochet off unless it was close to 90 degree. Larger heavier bullet from handgun fared better however if the angle was great ricochet would occur, side windows different story since they are less angled thinner and non laminated. Rifle bullets different story however light fast bullet still will glance off, rule of thumb the heavier the bullet or the faster the bullet the better chance of penetration. 12 gauge slug goes through anything, several fired slug penetrated a steel bumper through the trunk back seat and ended in the front seat or the dash board. the only caliber of full penetration reliably was the 50BMG bullet know to go through he entire car including the engine at times
The fed agency I worked from prohibited shooting at cars with our issued weapons which where the 38 through 9mm because of this

Ya know, I bet you one of those Speer African Grand Slam solids with the bronze jacket and tungsten core would go through a car from end to end and barely slow down. Speer stopped making them but they are still being marketed by the original designers. They'll go through a Cape buff end to end like a knife through hot butter. Same for elephant.