Virtually all of the post-shooting "conversations" focus on the firearms and defense-related issues. But what do you do if you find yourself armed/unarmed in a post-shooting situation. Would you know what to do? Would you be able to triage a person who has been shot? Sure, the Red Cross offers plenty of CPR classes but what do you do to keep some one from bleeding out and where can you get basic training to help save a life is a shooting related situation? THIS is a question we should all be asking.

As a Basic and Wilderness first aid instructor I can tell you these courses do not deal with gun shot wounds. They are a great place to start as they teach the basics from which more advanced courses build.

That said a simple google search in first aid classes for gunshot wounds yielded several options.

There is no single treatment as treatment depends on the location of the wound. Thus in person classes are best.

Learning some advance first aid is a great idea and good skill set to have. Wilderness responder and first responder courses are out there. They are a good starting point.

I know our local community collages offer such courses.

One needs to search out such and pay to go. It all depends on how advanced you want to become.

I seen a lot more and different traumatic wounds cause by vehicle crashes.

Treating gunshot wounds really isn't that much different then treating other traumatic wounds I have done both. A hole in the body is a hole in the body no matter what it was cause by.



Most LEOs carry tourniquets now to stop blood flow. Body shots such as sucking chest wounds and others can be taken care of.

It all comes back to the basics ABC.s.

There is only so much one can do with out having a fully equipped trauma bag and ambulance or being in a ER.

Treating friendly's and your self has a different dynamic then treating a suspect.

My thoughts on that are below.

Having been trained as a LEO first responder(I was also an EMT at one time) we were given training on treating gun shot wounds not only on suspects but on our selves.

We were mandated to treat suspects as part of the arrest procedure. But only after it is safe to do so.


Again as a LEO one is obligated to treat.

As a civilian I know of no such obligation to treat someone one that attacked you who intended to do kill you or do great bodily harm.

Approaching someone that has just placed you endanger so much that you had to defend yourself. Is very dangerous and I would not do so by oneself.

It is hard enough to do safely when one is working with a team of trained responders.

Criminals are not trust worthy people and have been know to lie steal and use fake compliance. To lure you into placing your self endanger.

You raise an interesting point, one I didn’t consider: you owe no duty to treat an injured person UNLESS you assume a duty. Once you get involved you need to do things right.

As for treating a suspect or shooter, I’m not concerned about that person; my concern would be for victims. That is assuming I could keep my cool and not just try to get as far away as possible.

JDG

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Would you be able to triage a person who has been shot? Sure, the Red Cross offers plenty of CPR classes but what do you do to keep some one from bleeding out and where can you get basic training to help save a life is a shooting related situation? THIS is a question we should all be asking.

The class you are seeking is Tactical Combat Causalty Care, better known as TCCC. It is offered by NAEMT.org. Excellent class that is updated often from the latest information from the battel field and from Trauma Center studies who deal in Gunshot wounds.

I got part of my training from an ER doctor in a class a few years ago. We went through sutures, sucking chest wounds, compound and complex fractures, intubation and severe bleeding. If you can find such a course, go. It is well worth the money. Mine was in LA and I can't remember the name of the organization.

The only thing I would recommend is to try to know the laws in your state. For example, in Oklahoma they have a "Good Samaritan" law. If you treat a person and bring them to a hospital, YOU become FINANCIALLY responsible for that hospital stay if the patient can't pay. There are a lot of "drop and goes" there for that reason. It was intended to be a good thing by relieving the person of responsibility, but the way the law reads, if you render aid and someone thinks the aid is not proper, then you pay. It just gets twisted if the person needing aid has complications. I actually had a hospital tell me once, "you brought them in, now leave before I know who you are". Elderly guy was stopped by the side of the road disoriented, dehydrated and couldn't find water on the highway. Took him to the hospital.

Being proficient in one's ability to provide appropriate "first aid" to trauma victims in the field, or anywhere else, is a noble pursuit. We should all have at least a rudimentary skill level in this regard.

But....victims are victims, and suspects are suspects. I have heard some suggest it's appropriate to provide care for the bad guy. Perhaps...as long as you're not the one who shot him.

Putting your hands on someone you just exchanged gunfire with is something about which you might want to give considerable thought. For many reasons.

As for everyone else, do whatever you can.

Does ones expected actions and liabilities go up with the increased level of training, expected competency?

Yes. Yes. And....yes.

For those concerned about providing first aid to someone you have shot there is a simple solution. Just load every second round in the mag or cylinder with a tampon and double tap

quote:

Originally posted by TCLouis:
Does ones expected actions and liabilities go up with the increased level of training, expected competency?

A lot depends on the state you live in Wisconsin has very strong protections.

That said if you use gasoline to try to put out a fire you could run into some problems.

In the unfortunate event you shot someone who was attempting to kill or severely harm you, you shot him for the reason to prevent any harm from coming to you. Your thoughts should not be prior to pulling the trigger as to how to revive him/her after I shoot them, that will get most likely killed or harmed. Oh, I know, shoot him in a non lethal spot, not a good plan.

Unfortunately this thread has wondered off topic. The question was not about treating a bad guy it was about helping save victims.

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Unfortunately this thread has wondered off topic. The question was not about treating a bad guy it was about helping save victims.

So what was the point of "find yourself armed/unarmed in a post-shooting situation"? I took that as meaning if armed you may have possibly shot someone and then needed to consider your first aid response. If not the case then surely no need to mention armed or unarmed, Just find yourself faced with providing some level of first aid for gunshot wounds?

In most civilised countries police officers will immediately apply first aid to suspects that they have shot. Here in NZ they would likely face charges of neglect of duty if they did not. After all it is our courts who seek and apply justice not our police. They do have a duty to protect themselves and citizens but do not have authority to act as judge and executioner.

Likewise in our 'civilised' societies we generally all have a duty to provide care and assistance where we are able to, having regard for our own safety in doing so.
Unlike what appears to be an issue in the USA, here in NZ we cannot be sued for causing injury or further injury to someone we maybe helping. We have a no blame National accident compensation scheme which covers all medical and rehabilitation costs plus provides long term benefits for those who may be need long term care. Even those injured during the course of criminal activities are covered in many cases.

Generally after the shooting, you call 911 and if you have fired your gun, you will probably be arrested. Applying first aid to someone you shot in self-defense, might back fire it the fool decides to sue you for life-long disabilities due to your shooting.

Just saying.

BH63

Frightening how poorly some people read. I’m not talking about rendering First Aid to someone I may have shot in self defense, I’m referring to situations, like Las Vegas (or any other mass shooting) where there are multiple victims.

Doublegun, no offense but your OP certainly does not make the distinction of being a bystander responding in a secondary capacity to a shooting. My initial reaction was similar to everyone elses, that you were the involved shooter.

12 years prior LE
Paramedic
TCCC
TECC

I attend training,such as the AAR linked below, regularly.


http://forums.accuratereloadin...1036801/m/8931082632

Since the average person at a mass shooting scene is probably not able to do a tracheotomy, the first thing after trying to clear the airways, is to stop bleeding. This is most usefully done by some type of tourniquet or direct pressure. If wound is large, and not able to be controlled with tourniquet, stuff it with almost anything, like a t shirt, and put and keep pressure on it. Like trying to stop a leak in a boat, except that if the wounded leaks too much, his blood pressure will drop and he will likely die.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Since the average person at a mass shooting scene is probably not able to do a tracheotomy, the first thing after trying to clear the airways, is to stop bleeding. This is most usefully done by some type of tourniquet or direct pressure. If wound is large, and not able to be controlled with tourniquet, stuff it with almost anything, like a t shirt, and put and keep pressure on it. Like trying to stop a leak in a boat, except that if the wounded leaks too much, his blood pressure will drop and he will likely die.

Stop bleeding first. Airway is meaningless is all the red stuff spills out.

Massive hemorrhage
Airway
Respirations
Circulation
Head trauma/hypothermia

OTOH if the wounded ain't getting any air, stopping the bleeding won't do him any good, he'll be dead anyway. I agree about stopping bleeding, but seeing if he is breathing takes seconds. Is he moaning, crying, etc.? He's breathing.

This is exactly what I have been looking for.

http://classes.beaumont.edu/Cl...255498968.1512102230

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Frightening how poorly some people read. I’m not talking about rendering First Aid to someone I may have shot in self defense, I’m referring to situations, like Las Vegas (or any other mass shooting) where there are multiple victims.

Doublegun I think everyone here read your original post perfectly well, perhaps it was you who confused the situation. What was your point of stating "find yourself armed/unarmed in a post-shooting situation".

If all you wanted to know was how to treat people with gunshots wounds after a shooting incident then what has finding yourself armed or unarmed got to do with it unless if you were armed you would put the wounded out of their misery

I can tell Hizzie took TCCC. The current protocol is C.A.B.

C - Circulation (Gross or obvious bleeding, Arterial)

A - Airway

B - Breathing

The logic is arterial/gross bleeding will kill the PT faster than Airway/Breathing issues. If you did resolve an airway and a breathing issue first, while excessive blood loss continues the breathing would stop again anyway if the heart has no blood to pump to the lungs to be oxygenated ...