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THE MYTHS OF THE ISRAELI METHOD OF CARRY
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quote:
Accidental deaths, and accidental injuries as well, is really what we are talking about.


Reco, I'd say that is half right. The real question is, which method keeps more good people out of the hospital and out of the ground. Is it the accidents avoided by the empty chamber users, or are more lives lost because someone with an empty chamber was unable to get their gun into action fast enough. I've seen plenty of ancidotical evidence on the dangers of the first, havent' seen as much on the second. Even then, for any kind of a valid study you would have to compare the two conditions across similar populations.

We can learn alot from the hunting accident statistics. In every instance of the report I posted, either someone had a round in the chamber, fell out of a tree stand, or both. Of course it's only partially relevant for this discussion, because we don't have many whitetail attacks in dark alleys.

Of course if there were roving bands of whitetail in my area, sticking people up at hornpoint, or if I was specifically tasked with bringing these brigands in, I'd add that to my risk evaluation, and be more likely to rack the slide and hit the de-cocker before I walked out the door on my way to Starbux.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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The real question is, which method keeps more good people out of the hospital and out of the ground. Is it the accidents avoided by the empty chamber users, or are more lives lost because someone with an empty chamber was unable to get their gun into action fast enough. I've seen plenty of ancidotical evidence on the dangers of the first, havent' seen as much on the second. Even then, for any kind of a valid study you would have to compare the two conditions across similar populations.
Agreed. That is exactly the question. Of course, each individual usually, but not always, forms his opinion based on attitude and emotion rather than honest assessment of whatever facts he might be able to guess at. Also, even if an individual thinks about the issue rather than just holding an attitude, he usually thinks that he is smarter than the average represented by the stats, if he has any. He isn't always. Furthermore, the individual attempting to evaluate the situation may put more weight on stopping a bad guy than on injuring an innocent person other than himself. A public-policy maker wouldn't do that, but it is understandable, even though wrong, that an individual might do that. All of these effects seem to work in the direction of making many individuals form judgments biased in favor of chambering a round. Nevertheless, I still feel Wink that most well-trained indiduals are better off carrying either a revolver or a modern bottomfeeder ready to go. That's what it looks like to me, but I would feel better if it were actually possible to see which is better by your criteron.

BTW, in recent years, I have carried primarily revolvers, partly because their daily routine is less complex and, in my opinion, safer.
 
Posts: 2272 | Location: PDR of Massachusetts | Registered: 23 January 2001Reply With Quote
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I have carried primarily revolvers, partly because their daily routine is less complex and, in my opinion, safer.


Well, I can certainly appreciat that. In reality, we are both approaching the same problem, from a different angles. I've tried the revolver as well, but round cylinders speed loaders don't disappear in the clothing as nice as flat semi, and flat magazines. As you implied, even for the highly trained, a semi with a round in the chamber has certain risk, and I wanted a method that "
quote:
their daily routine is less complex, and in my opinion safer.
, that's when I discovered IKM. For me, the biggest suprise, is just how FAST it really is. With my Walter style pistol, it's actually faster and more certain then disengaging the safety. When someone tells me how slow and cumbersome it is to chamber a round on the presentation stroke, I know it's unlikely they've ever practiced it, or been trained on proper techniques to clear or create distance between you and an opponent. In addition when someone scoffs at techinques for chambering around with one hand, hasn't practiced one handed reloading techniques, weak hand shooting, or weak hand draw techniques.

I wonder how many "highly trained" folks that ALWAYS carry a round in the chamber have never considered, let alone practiced any of this?

Perhaps I see the value of civilian C3 because of the statistics. I'm paraphrasing, but something like: 98%of defensive uses of a firearm so not involve every firing it.

Of the remaining 2%, how many would allow enough time to draw and fire, but not enough time to draw, rack and fire? Shall we say 10%? I think that number is absurdly high, will work for this sake of this discussion.

98% + 1.8% = 99.8% of typical defensive uses that can be covered with C3 carry. In exchange for that 1 in 500 chance that I would have time and space to draw, but not rack, I gain the only way I know for absolute certain to make certain a firearm will not go off. No live round under the firing pin. I think we can agree there are more ADD's every year then bad guys shot. Even if a public ADD doesn't injure someone, I still don't want to have to explain it to the police, risk my permit, or see my name and picture in the paper.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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This seems relevant:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/27530944/detail.html

Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Peter I didn't see any place what type of firearm was used or what he was actualy doing at the time.

Could be a suicde for all that was told.
 
Posts: 19868 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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No one knows. I will try to find out next time I go down there (I am a member). There are several different "bays" ie. large shooting areas with berms on each side, plus a back stop. Generally folks when they see a bay occupied will just find another one. He had several guns "out", supposedly, and of course because it is a shooting range no one would notice shots being fired! So, I suspect that when one of the guys was leaving they saw him lying down on the ground. Just a guess on my part. The side 'bays" are short range (20 yards or so) so I am pretty sure it was a handgun that was the cause.
I arrived at the range about 20-30 minutes after he was found and they would not let me in!
Peter.


Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
 
Posts: 10515 | Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Registered: 09 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Wouldn't surpirze me to have it ruled an accident.

I seen several so called accidents that were most likely sucides. But because of no note, no comments they were call accidents.

Family gets insurance ect no bad press ect.

But then he could have shot him self in the leg with his Glock cut the artey and died fast.
 
Posts: 19868 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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I am a 1911 Cocked and locked kind of guy...

OK, I can accept, and know, several people that do not feel comfortable carrying cocked and locked and prefer a DA Semiauto...

However, if you are not well trained enough, or do not feel comfortable enough, to carry a round in the chamber, then you should not carry a semiauto.

Either carry a revolver, or just some Pepperspray...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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450, Like this guy?

http://www.svherald.com/associ...tally-shoots-himself

I wonder if he had a round in the chamber?
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
450, Like this guy?

http://www.svherald.com/associ...tally-shoots-himself

I wonder if he had a round in the chamber?


Probably practicing his draw for qualification.

If you do not touch the trigger guns usually do not go off.

If you do not have the gun pointed at a human, no one get hurt even if they do.

Do both at the same time and... shocker thumbdown shame


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I have also seen people using the Israeli Method, under stress crank a shot off when chambering a round.

The correct answer is to train enough to be safe.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I have also seen people using the Israeli Method, under stress crank a shot off when chambering a round.


How did they do that?
Finger on the trigger while racking the slide?
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Yes.
Of course they did not think they had their finger on the trigger...

Also there is always the chance of a feeding malfunction, especially when under stress, or if the bad guy "contacts" you while you are racking the slide.

As long as you keep your finger off the trigger, until you are ready to fire, I do not see having a round in the chamber a problem.

Most of the neglegent discharges I have seen or know about occur when loading, unloading, or "playing with the gun", such as practicing your draw with a loaded gun".

Also there have been accidental shootings by people "gunsmithing" their guns at home.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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or if the bad guy "contacts" you


You've been around a few times. How common an occurance is that?
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by enfieldspares:
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Peter it always amazes me how often Denver Cops kids are killed with their Glock super guns. We had 2 in 2 years. Kids got ahold of the glocks, condition one, while the parent was getting ready for work.....


Maybe a valid argument for a magazine disconnector as on the Browning High Power?


I carried a Hi Power for many years. Early on, I had my disconnector disconnected.
 
Posts: 11729 | Location: Florida | Registered: 25 October 2006Reply With Quote
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It is very common in both Civilian and LEO situations.

Usually if you are a Civilian, or an LEO off duty, iof you have to shoot someone it is because they are wanting you to do something you do not want to do. And they are CLOSE, OR THEY HAVE ALREADY "CONTACTED" YOU.

Many LEO's even if they carry some sort of semi auto, ALWAYS carry a S&W Bodyguard, or Chief Special, ie some sort of small 38 Special revolver, as a "Number two", for "Close Encounters", as semi autos are not 100% reliable when in a Grappeling situation.

Anything that hits the slide, clothing, hair, even a close near contact shot, can propel blood/bone fragments, etc, onto the barrel as the slide is functioning causing a malfunction, keeping the pistol from going back into battery.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
quote:
Its a great idea, right up until someone engages/grabs you and you don't have both hands free to cycle the slide.


It's very easy to chamber a round with one hand. Firmly plant the rear site/top of the slide firmly on your belt/thigh and entend you arm hard.

Peter it always amazes me how often Denver Cops kids are killed with their Glock super guns. We had 2 in 2 years. Kids got ahold of the glocks, condition one, while the parent was getting ready for work.....


AS
The same thing happened back when most Police carried Revolvers.

ANYTIME an untrained kid gets a hold of a gun, a disaster can happen.

Two friends of mine had kids that shot theirselves, when they got a hold of their parents handgun, one killed one wounded.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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450, your last couple of post really illistrate both sides of the issue.

Discharges while loading and unloading.
Friends loosing kids.
Bad guys so close they have their hands on you.

None of it is very plesant stuff, but that's why we have these conversations.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I wonder if it was a Glock?
I wonder if he had a round in the chamber?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42.../local_news-miami_fl

At least the kid didn't kill himself this time.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Carrying empty chamber is a safe method when those carrying lack training. It is really fast to rack the slide.
I quit using this method when I began carrying a DAO.
 
Posts: 362 | Location: The Promised Land | Registered: 16 August 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by enfieldspares:
quote:
Peter it always amazes me how often Denver Cops kids are killed with their Glock super guns. We had 2 in 2 years. Kids got ahold of the glocks, condition one, while the parent was getting ready for work.....


Maybe a valid argument for a magazine disconnector as on the Browning High Power?


Some american friends who are cops told me their department purchased SW pistols because of this feature after I asked why they pressed the magazine release when we entered prison to interview prisoners.
I was answered "the pistol is safe, trigger bar is disengaged and in case a prisoner may get hold of the gun, it is unusable"
 
Posts: 362 | Location: The Promised Land | Registered: 16 August 2008Reply With Quote
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Zev, the cops I've talked to claim a different reason for the feature. It turns out some have a bad tendency to shoot themselves when clearing malfunctions in a patrol car. They get the gun upside down and backwards, trying to shake out the obstruction, of course this is in the the dark, and under fire, and end up shooting themselves in the femoral artery. Once you hit the magazine disconnect, it won't function until they slam the magazine home again, hopefully with the muzzle pointed in the proper direction.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
. . . when clearing malfunctions in a patrol car. . . .
So I guess it's not just Israelis who make the mistake of deriding revolvers.
 
Posts: 2272 | Location: PDR of Massachusetts | Registered: 23 January 2001Reply With Quote
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"....clearing malfunctions in a patrol car.."

Really?


114-R10David
 
Posts: 1753 | Location: Prescott, Az | Registered: 30 January 2007Reply With Quote
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Police shooting themselves in their legs with Glocks is so prevalent, said firearms consultant and former Guns and Ammo editor Whit Collins, that gun experts describe the phenomenon as "Glock leg."

Atlantic City Officer Dies On Duty ATLANTIC CITY (CBS 3) Atlantic City Police Officer Kevin Wilkins, 31, died in the line of duty on February 18, 2010 when he
accidentally shot and killed himself while on duty Thursday morning.

Police Chief John Mooney said 31-year-old Kevin Wilkins was putting a rubber sleeve on the grip of his weapon when it discharged, striking him in the face. Chief Mooney said Wilkins had removed the ammunition clip, but was struck by the round in the chamber.

The incident happened at about 1:30 a.m. while the officer and his partner were sitting in their parked vehicle near Kentucky Avenue.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Here is the bottom line, IMHO...

IF you do not feel comfortable with cocked and locked, then carry a Double Actioned semiautomatic. Either DA/SA or DA all the time...

If you do not feel comfortable carrying a round in the chamber of a semiauto carry a REVOLVER.

Just practice with what you carry


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Whit Collins, and others like him----such as the idiot with the bad hair piece who is still teaching wrist locks and twist locks, what's his name, Massad The Boob?----get eaten alive at voire dire, by real lawyers coached by real professonals in sophisticated venues across this country every day. Every friggin day. I've read the transcripts. It's laughable. Laughable.

As for cops shooting their kids and themselves, and generally endangering everyone around them. Yes. Cops do have AD's. But let's do the math. Really. Just how many? Too many, to be sure. But...got any hard numbers?

And....no one with a 3 digit IQ, no one, absolutely no one, conducts ANY kind of "clearing" technique INSIDE a patrol car in an otherwise benign environment. Only a moron would do so. One would only do so if they found themselves in the middle of a gun fight and had to do so to return to the fight.


114-R10David
 
Posts: 1753 | Location: Prescott, Az | Registered: 30 January 2007Reply With Quote
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One would only do so if they found themselves in the middle of a gun fight and had to do so to return to the fight.


TWL, You are correct. My original post stated in a gunfight.
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I must say that those figures are greatly received improperly compared to those who are trained in the facet of carrying a gun all day.

Also to carry a pistol on yourself and not have a round in the chamber is plain ludicrous gentlemen.

To throw figures that come from crime period into a discussion of carrying a CCW permit and your weapon is like reciting the Gettysburg Address in a music class. It just doesn't make good sence period.
 
Posts: 334 | Location: America | Registered: 23 April 2010Reply With Quote
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[QUOTE]
 
Posts: 334 | Location: America | Registered: 23 April 2010Reply With Quote
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Here's how fast a person can be with an empty chamber:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VUd2FzZm70w
 
Posts: 3034 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 01 July 2010Reply With Quote
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Still took two hands and no one trying to stop him, and no prior attack. In the end, I will still carry ready to use one-handed, as long as I can carry safely. If I can't carry safely, I won't carry at all.
 
Posts: 2272 | Location: PDR of Massachusetts | Registered: 23 January 2001Reply With Quote
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As Recondo stated "Still took two hands"...

IMHO, Israeli Carry is the MOST dangerous way to carry a semiauto.
MOST dangerious for the carrier, and MOST dangerous for the public.

It is safer for the bad guys. tu2

If you feel unsafe with a loaded round in the chamber semiautomatic, then vote Democratic, and stay home.
Have your groceries delivered, and never go outside...

WHO EVER thought up this Israeli Method of carry, should be drawn and quartered, boiled in oil, burned at the stake, tarred and feathered, hung by the neck until dead, or curcified... IMHO of course...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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My guns are always loaded, except the longarms in the safe. As I write this my carry gun is next to me and there is an AR15 in the corner. Both have a loaded chamber. Hard to shoot someone with an unloaded gun after all.
 
Posts: 956 | Location: PNW | Registered: 27 April 2009Reply With Quote
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450, you shouldn't be so hard on those who choose to carry a pistol chamber empty.

My uncle years back was at a gun show in Miami and watched a man pull his CCW to hand it over to a dealer to show him. The dealer grabbed the pistol when the man handed it to him and somewhere in the pulling the gun went off shooting this guy in the stomach with his own glock.

Another I know of was a buddy at someone's home wanted to show off his HK USP. He carries with one in the chamber, and was showing off the trigger pull to someone. He dropped the mag partially and ejected the chambered round, then released the slide forward. The mag wasn't dropped down enough and evidently chambered a second round which when the trigger was tested fired into an adjacent wall.

Both times complacency were to blame, no check, double check, check again. And I know of others who carry all the time have heard of similar accidents.

Also, as a young boy I recall a time visiting relatives and found loaded pistols in drawers. Granted, if I had not known the dangers of guns I could have made a grave error. And this was in a household of a couple who did not have kids, so they did not consider the danger of a loaded gun in the house or simply forgot. Being very young I could not pull the slide fully back, but I did notice a round in the chamber when I tried, so that could have been a bad situation.

I also had a babysitter who was a police officer who stayed at our home in the 1980s for one week while my parents were away. He left his Colt Python on a desk where it could be easily reached but I left it alone because I knew what it was, but he didn't know that and he did make a mistake leaving a loaded gun around where kids can access it out of his sight.

Just from things I've heard and seen I don't have a problem with people carrying chamber empty and I've hopefully described a couple of situations above where chambered weapons were dangerous because of complacency.

I give credit to those who train properly with any way they carry, but I see more issues with chambered firearms in situations outside of hostile events, however I do agree that racking a slide does take practice but I believe it would be more than adequate in many situations.

There are too many variables in any carry situation to rule it out. A lot has to do with how people carry, IWB, outside, the type of firearm, etc.

Training is the key. There needs to be quality training in both carry situations and if one chooses to carry a different way they should find someone who supports that practice and will work with them.
 
Posts: 673 | Location: St. Paul MN | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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When you go to a "gunshow" you should never plan on selling/trading your LOADED carry gun IF it is LOADED...

Training is the issue here.
I have carried a loaded cocked, and locked 1911, since I was in the NINTH grade. Most every day. shocker YES most every day... I have not shot an innocent person yet... I am carrying one right now. I used one as a work gun for several years.

IF you feel unsafe carrying a LOADED handgun, then get some pepperspray.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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We just had a self defense shooting in Milw. the good guy was carrying with empty chamber a sig 226 I belive.

Said he carried it that way because he had kids around the house.

He says after takening on a shotgun yeilding bad guy he is going to start carring with a round in the chamber.

Having to chamber a round makes a lot of noise when the bad guy is threating to blow some ones head off
 
Posts: 19868 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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I'm just trying to play devil's advocate. There are fine arguments to both sides. I have respect for anyone who carries responsibly, but let's be honest, it's darn difficult to accidentally fire an un-chambered pistol!

I don't think that the majority of those who carry un-chambered are self-doubting in their ability to safely carry a pistol. If that was the case, I would agree with you on the mace!

It's just that I believe some prefer an added measure of safety, and do so knowing that their training needs to reflect this choice and they will be giving up some advantages of the cocked and locked practice.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I've just had acquaintances who carry cocked and locked that have had accidental discharges (through dumb moments) and I question whether they might be better off with mace for their sake and the general public's too!

I've carried both the 1911 and the Sig 220 and feel both are fine weapons and trust both with a round in the chamber and a GOOD holster.

That said, it's not always what you carry, but what it's in. A good holster makes a huge difference in the safety. I've owned 1911s with single piece mainsprings (so no grip safety) and hi-powers with ambidextrous safeties and you have to be aware that there is the possibility of bumping the safety off. Say moving a big duffle bag or backpack or carrying a mattress and it rubs against it, etc...

Some people I'm sure would get an unsettling feeling if they looked down and noticed their safety off on their Hi-Power and for who knows how long...? These things happen, so that's why it's always important to be aware and think about the strangest things happening as they just might!

oh, p dog, let's hope that fella doesn't have to deal with another crazy with a shotgun in his lifetime... one's enough! Glad it worked out okay for him...
 
Posts: 673 | Location: St. Paul MN | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Here's the link to that incident. He certainly showed a cool head in a volatile situation, especially considering he wasn't carrying his pistol chambered.

Not a big fan of Aldi. Hope they change their rule. We have a few down in the cities here and having visited them they are not in the greatest parts of town...

http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html
 
Posts: 673 | Location: St. Paul MN | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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