I have been planning a trip to a firearm training facility for this coming fall. My primary concern is going to be a defensive handgun course. I had all but booked Front Sight until I began to read some negative commentary regarding the operators of the program. While I have not ruled out Front Sight, it has given me reason to check out other operations. I am hoping some of you can give recommendations as to where to go, and give reference to your experience there.

Take a look at Dave Lauck's Sure Fire Training Academy/Small Arms Academy.

I think they are in Gillette WY.

quote:

Originally posted by jcarr:
I have been planning a trip to a firearm training facility for this coming fall. My primary concern is going to be a defensive handgun course. I had all but booked Front Sight until I began to read some negative commentary regarding the operators of the program. While I have not ruled out Front Sight, it has given me reason to check out other operations. I am hoping some of you can give recommendations as to where to go, and give reference to your experience there.

Same here, looking forward to the responses. I may be a fool for looking. Jerry Miculek lives 3 hrs. from me.

The only offensive/defensive course I've been through in civilian life is one in El Salvador. It's an urban survival course and very good. Barracades, rapid fire, various positions including prone shooting through a door, moving targets, multiple targets and long range targets. Considering that El Sal is the second most violent country in the world, or so some say, you can logically deduce that the instructors aren't just paper punchers.

The Marines are looking for a few good men. They'll even feed you and pay for your ammo.

I have some fundamental issues with "shooting schools" -- mostly because they don't screen and pre-qualify their "students." If you have the bucks, you get a seat in the class.

They're in the BUSINESS to make money first. Secondarily, they're in the business to teach you stuff you can learn from the copious free resources available online and in print.

Masaad Ayoob has in print "Combat Handgunnery 5th Ed." from Gun Digest. Heaps and heaps of information there, and it's about $20. Plus you don't have to provide transportation and lodging.

I can recommend from experience Gunsite, EAG Tactical, LMS Defense. My brother recommends Jeff Gonzales. Thunder Ranch is highly recommended but I will say I have not been.

Larry Mudgett, whoever you find him working for, is good to go. Last I knew he was doing some work at Gunsite and some work for someone else at Southern Exposure.

Mr. Ladd, while there are undoubtedly many shady enterprises out there, I know of few that train people who have no credentials--CPL/CHL being the most common arrangement. Further, you cannot learn nearly as much from a book as on the range.

OP, an acquaintance of mine regularly goes to Front Sight and likes it. My understanding is they stopped preaching Scientology during classtime when they went bankrupt the first time.

jcarr,
To name a few trainers I've used:
John Farnum at Defense Training International is having basic/intermediate defensive handgun classes in Laramie, Wyoming and in Casper, Wyoming in late June, 2009 and does so in both places on a yearly basis. Good instructor (since 1970's, with a military and law enforcement background), teaches safe gun handling, defensive shooting skills and gives an excellent overview of the law as it pertains to self defense and shooting. Worthwhile classes. I have taken 4 classes with him and will do so at somepoint again.
Lee Kremers (Powder River Firearms) near Kaycee, Wyoming is teaching basic handgun and women's classes for CCW permits and self defense and precision rifle. He doesn't have the decades of instructional experience or the name but will cover the basics well and safely and, particularly for the novice, help establish a good foundation in gun handling in a low keyed manner.
Badlands Tactical in southwest Oklahoma provides good instruction also but is a long drive from Wyoming. Enjoyed the training enough to drive back for another class the next year, however. Will do so again at some point.
SHOTS Ranch in Arizona is a new school opened by Jack and Rick Furr. I've trained with both while they worked for another shooting school and would train with them again.
I've done some type of firearms training (rifle, pistol, carbine, or shotgun) with the above and learned something new, developed or polished skills and felt I spent my money well and will, at some point, money and time permiting, do so again with them. I am not military or law enforcement but have spent a lifetime shooting and learning to shoot.
Dave Lauck (D L Sports) is still in Gillette, Wyoming and does civilian and law enforcemnt training. I've not personally trained with him but have several acquaintances who have and felt they received excellent instruction. He has an extensive competion and law enforcement background and is a high-end 1911 and precision rifle smith. He does have a precision rifle class scheduled in August but doesn't have a class schedule posted otherwise on his web sight. He recently sold his range to Surefire and the range has been renovated so should offer more traing in the future. I beleive a lot of what he has done is personalized instruction.
All of these instructors require proof of good citizenship (a letter from your local law enforcement attesting that you aren't a felon or of bad repute or proof of a federal background check(concealled carry permit)) to enroll.
It is nice to not have to travel across the country for training, and, although alot can be learned from books, real instruction is invaluable.
Friends have trained at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Front Site (and weren't pressured on the real estate developement or religion), and Tactical Defense Institute and were positive about all of these places and their instructors.
Hope this is helpful!
jpj3

Here are some links:

http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/

http://www.gunsite.com/

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

http://www.yfainc.com/

The last is Louis Awerbuck's website. When I took a course at Gunsite he was the principal instructor. If you want instruction from a guy who lives, eats and breathes self-defense, he is also a good option, since it's all he does. He lives in the real world and his teaching philosophy reflects that.

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Further, you cannot learn nearly as much from a book as on the range.

Without any doubt whatsoever. There is no substitute for expert training.

Depends on what you want to learn. Lot's to consider if you're going to be serious about this.

There are shooting schools and there are so-called tactical schools, and there are shooting/tactical schools. Very few are good at both.

There are shooters who teach shooting fundamentals and do so quite well. Just as there are shooters who teach tactical stuff not so well. And there are tactical guys who are not very good shooting instructors.

Regrettably, this new world of "personal defense" is full of charlatans. Probably more charlatans out there than not these days. Buyer/student beware.

Decide what you are looking for and research your school and its staff just as you would an African PH. Check references, and check the references themselves.

There is a world of difference between a shooter and a gunfighter. Don't go bonkers over the guy who can run & gun on a known course he shoots everyday. Ditto the big name shooters who take all the metals in the various competitions. What these guys do is all about practice and repetition and has very, very little to do with surviving a gun fight. I'll say it again-----there is a world of difference between a shooter and a gunfighter.

My suggestion is to begin first with the fundamentals of shooting, as taught by a competent shooting instructor, and then move on to the tactical stuff, as taught by a competent tactical guy. In the civilian/commercial market of "personal defense" training today it's rare to find one school or one instructor with a credible balance of shooting skill and REAL LIFE tactical experience, who is also a skilled instructor.

Lastly, be realistic in what you want and what your limitations are. Sound survival tactics begin with good physical conditioning. Come to understand that going to a school and carrying a gun does not a gunfighter make.

quote:

In the civilian/commercial market of "personal defense" training today it's rare to find one school or one instructor with a credible balance of shooting skill and REAL LIFE tactical experience, who is also a skilled instructor.

That's why I enjoyed (and learned) at the El Salvador school. The instructors have plenty of both.

One instructor killed a guy about two months ago. Three guys accosted him on the street and disarmed him of his right hand gun. They didn't know he had another on the left. He drew his little Glock .45 and center-punched one guy, was grazed on the arm by another guy who fled. The guy he shot was DRT, but by the time he notified the cops, someone had retrieved the body. El Salvador can be very interesting.

I took John Farnum's course some years back.Learned an enormous amount.The best instructors are always getting feedback from the street , what does work and what doesn't .One instructor [since passed away] that I met who'd 'been there done that ' was Jim Cirillo.Very interesting comments from a man who'd been in numerous shootouts and survived.

Went to Gunsite decades ago.

A few others I did not see mentioned:

http://www.ayoob.com/

http://www.texaspistol.com/

http://www.blackwaterusa.com

http://www.internationaltactical.com

http://www.weaponstraining.com/

http://www.f-r-i.com/

http://www.guntactics.com/

http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/index.aspx

I have been to Gunsite and was very pleased with the instructors and content.

Jcarr,

I have been to Front Site as well as a number of others both military and civilian. I know of the "negatives" you speak of, i think. I do if it involves Scientology.

here's what i know from first hand experience.

Never had such an intense civilaian shooting course, and only a couple mil courses were more so. Intense mentally mainly. The instructors were all first class.

At no time during the course, and at no time after the course did I then, nor do i now get any Scientology vibe from them. never heard anything even closely resembling it.

can't say it's not there as a definite, but I can say I never saw/heard of it.

dan

a mea culpa

Jcarr,

while I stand behind everything I said in the above post, not five minutes later I found something else. Scroll down to the Front Site thread started by daniel77 and read down until you see the link to a recent newspaper story out of pahrump.

\Seems some financial crap has hit the fan. It don't look good.

dan

The receivership for Front Sight was then dissolved 5/18/09. http://invictus.websitetoolbox.com/file?id=784766.
Best
jpj3

How about looking into Tactical Response out of Tennesee. You can go to them or they can come to you.

Greg

The former Blackwater,now renamed Xe, trains the major federal law enforcement agencies. Inquire about the specific course and who the instructor will be. Some are civilian,law enforcement,and former military, often SEALs. Located in Moyock, NE North Carolina. They have other facilities in Illinois and California. Todd Jarrett is world class and is frequently on board.

Try this one:
http://www.hoffnerstactical.com/

I've take a 8hr "in-service" class w/Hoff. Excellent class! I'm sure the civilian class is at the same standard.

Also check out Ron Avery at the Practical Shooting Academy in Colorado. Ron is a world class shooter as well as a world class individual that I have trained with 1 on 1 and it's worth every penny. He's a great guy and unbelievably skilled as well as an outstanding instructor.

Cool! Tactical Response is about 15 minutes from my house!! I might just have to give them a call. I've always wanted to take a tactical firearms class to refine my abilities. This sounds like a great opportunity.