99.9% of the discussions on concealed carry by a citizen revolve around esoteric caliber, cartridge, or weapon choices. (Why we can't just use the "capable,reliable,comfortable" axiom, I don't know. Too easy I guess.) If there is any time left over, we might talk tactics and if we are really bored, we'll talk about what to do after a shooting.

However, I think one of the most overlooked aspects of this subject is also probably one of the most important - incidental or routine contact with law enforcement, not after a shooting, not after you call 911 - just in going about the course of your day.

Why is this important? Well, considering that in this case, both parties will be armed, it'd be a good idea to not only be aware of local law but aware of how your local law enforcement expects to deal with CHL/CCW holders.

Let me explain. This past weekend, while traveling out of state, I had the opportunity to meet 2 different officers on two different days. Yes, I know. I am a bit lead footed. One was a municipal officer, one was a state trooper.
Stop 1: Mid-day on a weekend. Officer approaches car before he runs my plates. I hand him both my DL and CHL with other hand on the wheel and let him know I am carrying as is my wife. He asked why we were carrying and I told him we always carried when traveling. We had a short, polite conversation and he gave me a verbal warning for speeding. ( Christmas came early this year.)
Stop 2: Mid-day on a week day. Trooper approaches car and I hand him my DL and CHL and advise him I am carrying as is my wife. He asked where it was and I told him I had my pistol holstered on my left hip. He asked to see it. Without really thinking, I just leaned forward to expose my left side to him. Without saying anything, he reached in and slowly removed it from my holster. I mentioned it was hot (cocked and locked 1911) and he said "OK". He didn't ask for my wife's weapon or permit. He went to his cruiser, wrote me up, and came back and handed me my ticket and my pistol and said "It's still hot. I didn't do anything to it." I re-holstered as he explained my ticket and we went on our way afterwards.

My point is not to show one or the other was right or wrong, simply that they were different.
However, I did wonder if another person might have interpreted the trooper's request to "let me see it" as "hand it to me". That may have opened a can of worms for both parties even though neither side had any aggressive intentions. And that is point of the thread, considering that each state, each agency, each officer and each citizen might have differing expectations during casual contact, maybe we ought to discuss our experiences and ideas see if there is in fact, a right way to handle it.
If I had one contribution to that end, it would be this: attitude is everything. Both times I was stopped this weekend, the ticket was the last thing on my mind. I had other things to do myself and the officers were simply doing their jobs. Everybody was polite and cordial and I was fine with whatever they requested concerning my sidearm.

How can it go wrong? Well, we know that it is rare that CHL/LEO contact goes wrong at all but it does happen. Some folks may be aware of the CHL holder killed in Las Vegas recently at a Costco. While the facts of the case are far from evident, it does appear that an employee noticed a man opening some merchandise in the store and that the man was armed. Metro PD was called and shortly after arrival, the man was shot and killed by 3 officers at close range. Again, the facts are far from clear but at first glance the CHL doesn't appear to be someone that had aggressive or criminal intentions prior to coming in contact with Metro PD. What actually happened remains to be seen, but I am guessing that all parties probably wish it had turned out differently.

I would also venture a guess and say a fair bit of CHL/LEO contact passes without incident because the CHL holder doesn't mention he is carrying. Besides being illegal in a lot of areas, it is tantamount to going double down on a couple of 4's: doubtful you will win big but the possibility of losing big is greatly increased.

Pardon me for my snarky thread title. But as odd as it sounds, that is what the letter of the law requires from a CHL in casual contact with an LEO in my state. There are about a dozen ways a reasonable person could interpret that particular sentence. How can we comply with the law AND use a little common sense and common courtesy and maybe a little more patience to ensure a postive outcome?

How about discussing past experiences first? Yes, we'll Mon/QB it to death but maybe it'll be more productive than our average thread.

i'd venture an opinion that the 2nd cop was playing with 51 cards

There's some significant liability exposure entailed in disarming a CCW holder. The gun belongs to you, it's loaded, and it's holstered.

From an LEO, I'd expect that "Let's see it." means let's see it. He's trained enough to know how to deliver clear directions.

But my larger issue would be, "Yeah I'm kinda a leadfoot." is not a viable excuse for behavior when you're armed.

I haven't had a ticket or been pulled over in about 25 yrs. That's the way you're supposed to behave when you're driving.

You should look into Cruise Control.

Well, J.D., he didn't incur any "liability exposure" from me - when he reached for my weapon, I was inclined to let him take it. I really wasn't concerned with whether or not he was within AL law that I wasn't familiar with, I was just trying to obey a reasonable request from the officer. In fact, it removed a little exposure from me since I didn't have to reach for it myself. I dunno, maybe there is a better way he could have handled it. I am not overly concerned with the legalistic nuances because 1. laws vary and 2. internet law school sux and we won't learn anything of value . I am concerned with the person to person interaction.


As far as speeding, it has been 13 years since I got my last ticket so you got me beat there. But, my cruise control seemed to be workin fine. I had it set precisely at 80 mph on I-20 as I crossed 6 states on my way to and from a funeral.

We are required in my state to inform the officer if armed and resent the concealed carry license. The officer is allowed at his discretion to take poesssion of the firearm at a stop. For me, pretty easy--- tell the cop I'm armed give him the license and if he wants to see it or hold it while running my info-- its up to him.

A very informative thread. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:
Well, J.D., he didn't incur any "liability exposure" from me - when he reached for my weapon, I was inclined to let him take it. I really wasn't concerned with whether or not he was within AL law that I wasn't familiar with, I was just trying to obey a reasonable request from the officer. In fact, it removed a little exposure from me since I didn't have to reach for it myself. I dunno, maybe there is a better way he could have handled it. I am not overly concerned with the legalistic nuances because 1. laws vary and 2. internet law school sux and we won't learn anything of value . I am concerned with the person to person interaction.


As far as speeding, it has been 13 years since I got my last ticket so you got me beat there. But, my cruise control seemed to be workin fine. I had it set precisely at 80 mph on I-20 as I crossed 6 states on my way to and from a funeral.

And I'm betting the speed limit is 65, right? They'll let you slide on about 10 mph, but will still pull you over. 15 will get you a citation.

"Liability exposure" happens when the LEO takes control of your loaded gun. Then he has possession of a loaded firearm that's not his, that he has no clue about (like it's got a defective safety, light trigger, is stolen, whatever). "Exposure" is something that happens. It's may or may not be conscious or voluntary, but it happens just the same.

It happens when the LEO takes possession of your firearm.

If the posted speed limit is 65 MPH, you need to set your cruise control at about 72. You know the second time you got pulled over you were cited because the police had a record of your first warning?

Somebody needs to tell you that you're being an arrogant prick on the highway. Evidently a ticket won't do it for you.

Speeding with guns in the car is capricious behavior. And your "grin" smilie at the end of your comments tells me and the judge that you don't think it's serious.

It's serious.

J.D. - at 640 posts in under a month, you'd figure a fella would learn to stay on topic. Troll the ARPF if you want but leave the name calling there as well.

J.D. is just old WmSLadd and OXO again. PUt him on ignore, and he'll act up enough to be banned again soon.

Good thread BTW.

Well, My thoughts are if the speed limit is 65 MPH, then I set MY cruise control at 65 MPH...
Am I missing something???

On another note... Any time you are in "contact" with any Law Enforcement, wether you have your gun or not, and wether it is required or not, if you are asked for ID I would recommend that you also give the LEO your CHL, [assuming you are carrying within the law].

When any LEO {Law Enforcement Officer} sees your Carry License he knows than you have most likely, depending on the State issuing the CHL, that you have PASSED A BACKGROUND CHECK, AND YOU ARE MOST LIKELY A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, AND NOT A FELON...

This can only work in your favor.

Unless you are carrying in a State that does not recognize your CHL, then you are on your own...