Recently went through a class and this question arose. I think it is even more relevant after the pharmacy shooting, and subsequent re-shooting.

When exactly does the threat end, and how should you respond? Let's assume that the shooting has taken place and the perp is down, and not dead. Specifically, I am referring to having a man down, but still in possession of a weapon. Is he really out of the fight, or playin' possum and might still try to shoot again? The instructor recommended calling 911 immediately and I completely agree, however, he didn't want us to approach the perp at all, for any reason, as you would then be messing with the scene. I on the other hand feel that the threat hasn't ended as long as the perp has a weapon. I can, however, see how approaching the perp could be seen as an act of aggression if you did then have to fire again, and am curious what the board thinks. On the other hand, what if you think he's out, and take your eye off of him, and he raises up with that weapon that is still in his hand? NOT CURIOUS WHAT THE TROLLS THINK. IF YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD SOLID CONSTRUCTIVE CRITIQUE THEN PLEASE GO PLAY ELSEWHERE.

Depends on where you are and local law. If you are at home in a state with no duty to retreat(meaning Castle Doctrine is in effect), as long as you reasonably feel he is still a threat, you have no reason not to cover that threat. Me? I would just have to see what the situation was specifically before I make a call to approach a wounded suspect. Am I alone? How wounded is he? Is my family a safe distance away? Lots of questions but mainly, "What do I gain by approaching him to disarm?" Risk little to gain little, risk alot to gain alot. But suffice to say, covering him from cover may be viable.

In public or in a state without castle doctrine, once you have the opportunity to remove yourself from the situation, you should so.

The video of a pharmacist is poignant. Shot one down and chased the other out of the pharmacy. He returned to the pharmacy, stepped over the wounded suspect, retrieved another pistol and proceeded to shoot the suspect again- five more times- on video. He is up for first degree murder right now. The DA went to great lengths to publicly state that the first series of shots was entirely justified and he was only charged for the final shots from the second pistol. While the video leaves does not show the suspect, the pharmacist's actions are open to interpretation. However, I should say, we can't see what he saw. Was the guy moving for a weapon? I dunno, but it was enough for the DA to run with it.

Chet

I will add: CALL 911 FIRST if at all possible: #1 You get the cavalry started that much sooner and #2 the person calling 911 first gets to be "the victim" or the "the reporting party". The one who calls second gets no such status.

AND, point out the evidence to the police when they arrive and explain it: "I am the homeowner, here is the guy who broke in and there is the weapon that he used against me." You instantly remove all doubt.
Chet

I think you've nailed the question. Castle doctrine has no effect on the threat, only how it may be adjudicated afterwords. I also would say the threat does not depend on the weapon of choice or if a weapon in fact even exists. The threat is any person or object with the ability to cause harm. From an angry dog to an IED. I can only think of two ways of ending the threat: Separation by distance/barrier or neutralization by force or coercion.

My $0.02

If he's breathing and has a weapon, he's still a threat. Law in this state says, "lethal force sufficient to stop the threat."

So, the ball's in your court.

When you call 911 you should stay on the line, because they will then have a recording of events at the scene. But just because you called first, don't expect that somehow you get the default "good guy" designation.

When police arrive on the scene of a shooting they expect EVERONE is a threat, and you're going to be viewed as a threat because you have a gun.

If he's still breathing and still armed -- he's still a threat. You need to stop the threat.

WSL- Your local LEO's may be different, but my SO has been downright cordial both times I was involved in an armed (either me or the other guy) encounter at my home. I would absolutely say I was treated as the default good guy simply because I called and explained what happened and what I needed. Granted, I know and work with a lot of my local LEO's and I live in a fairly rural area where miscreants are not apt to call 911 themselves.
The flip side is that if an actual shooting occurs, it is probably not a good idea to have a weapon in hand at all when law enforcement arrives. Just clear the weapon and set it down.
Chet

Not enough info to answer the question. The dynamics of the entire incident from start to finish, as well as the physical layout of the scene must be evaluated for a host of indicators too numerous to mention.

As a general rule, hold your position if it's a good one, or relocate to better cover if able. RELOAD! Observe bad guy for continued aggression. Keep your distance. Give verbal commands to others who may be in danger while you continue to cover threat. Alert them to threat and direct them to hold or relocate as appropriate. If alone, call 911 only if tactically sound to do so. If others present, have them make the call.

Be prepared to meet responding help from a position and in a manner that does not pose a threat to them. Verbalize your location and status as a good guy--loudly. Verbalize the location, threat and status of the bad guy---loudly.

If inside, and able, direct others to go outside to meet responding help. Do not have them travel in the area of the threat. Hold and continue to cover threat.

Forget the law at this point. Think survival. Think tactics. The only reason for you to approach the bad guy would be if he were still alive, his weapon was nearby and it appeared he had the juice left to re-arm himself and re-engage. You might then approach and separate him from his weapon. But why risk it? If he picks up the gun, shoot him again. Your goal is to win.

Very well put.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Very well put.

Awwwwww, c'monnnnnnnn, Depends. This might be the only shooting you ever get. Pump in another two mags worth. You carry that many don't you?

On another thread about talking to cops you said:

quote:

Posted 06 June 2009 02:17 Hide Post
Most people put themselves in jail. The cops aren't there to help you. They're there to make the easiest arrest they can to cut down on their paperwork and look good to the bosses.

The only words out of your mouth should be "I want to talk to my lawyer."

So which is it?

IF BG is down, alive, and I've got the police on the phone, I'm gonna tell them ALL my intentions as I'm doing them. If I tell them I'm gonna try to separate him from his weapon and they say "No", you better believe I'm gonna stay put and cover him from distance.

But I'm not going to approach him anyway. I'm not gonna take my attention off my surroundings and focus on him only as I approach. And if I expose myself from cover and have to engage a second BG, then I have to worry about first BG again.

All this discussion is well and good if you've only got one bad guy and he's down. What if there are more than one and you can't cover the one that's down and still engage the others -- and what if there are others at risk? Just asking. Too many variables for an absolute rule or answer to the question.

Like I said, not enough information to answer the question.

And, btw, nobody said anything about mulitiple suspects.

I get a kick out of the guys who want to call 911 with some scripted shit already hashed out in their minds. Oh, yea, and let's point out the evidence! Fluff. BS that takes the place of serious contemplation about serious matters, at serious times. Dead men.

Survive the fight first. Win. Nothing else matters.

What you do after the shooting is the subject of an entirely different thread.

I disagree... when does the threat end?
EASY question

When the jury brings back a guilty verdict?

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:


I get a kick out of the guys who want to call 911 with some scripted shit already hashed out in their minds. Oh, yea, and let's point out the evidence! Fluff.......What you do after the shooting is the subject of an entirely different thread.

Different thread? Not really. I was continuing a train of thought because the OP brought up the subject of "messing with the scene" in the original post. I took that to mean there might be some reservation about moving a suspect's weapon after a shooting. The original thread was not about straight tactics. He specifically asked about how things would be seen after the shooting.

Moving a weapon/covering a perp depends on the circumstances. That has been covered and the tactical answer cannot be gained without more detail.

HOWEVER, IT WOULD ABSOLUTELY be in your best interest to let arriving officers know which weapon was yours and which was his AFTER THEY ARRIVE if that perp no longer has the weapon in hand. I didn't say it would be done during the 911 call.
Chet

Perp's weapon is going to be against a wall or in the corner when LE gets there. That's a given. That happens right before the "eye blink" test. If he blinks, body search for weapons and if clean, he gets CPR/first aid as needed.

Whatever.

I remember when it hit me. I was young, with a modicum of experience. Bingo. There it was. I know ALL the answers!

It was somewhere between my first two and three years of experience in the so-called, real time, real world tactial business that I came to understand that I KNEW IT ALL! I was bullet proof.

Oh, how stupid those who went before me! All those who paved the way, fought the fight, learned the lessons. Died. How stupid they were. What idiots. Old fools. Couldn't they see? Didn't they know? If only they would have.....

I was beyond learning. I knew it all. No one could tell me anything. Oh how slick I was with my 1911, my M4, MP5, and Benelli Super 90.

By the Grace of God I am alive today.

Somewhere in the middle of 35 years of experience, somewhere in the middle of hundreds of armed confrontations, somewhere standing terrified and alone in the dark, somewhere in the middle of several dozen voir dire examinations---and somewhere standing quietly graveside the fallen commrade-----I came to understand.

I do not have all the answers. In fact, I don't really know very much at all.

Yet I see that others do.

I'm off to Africa for 3 weeks. Check with you all when I get back.

No worries TWL. It's just the innuhnetz. I enjoy your posts, it's good scoop. I was just making a point.

Hope you have a good time. My turn comes next month. If a warthog breaks into my bungalow and pulls a knife, I am going to light him up with birdshot!


Take care,
ChetNC

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
I remember when it hit me. I was young, with a modicum of experience. Bingo. There it was. I know ALL the answers!

It was somewhere between my first two and three years of experience in the so-called, real time, real world tactial business that I came to understand that I KNEW IT ALL! I was bullet proof.

Oh, how stupid those who went before me! All those who paved the way, fought the fight, learned the lessons. Died. How stupid they were. What idiots. Old fools. Couldn't they see? Didn't they know? If only they would have.....

I was beyond learning. I knew it all. No one could tell me anything. Oh how slick I was with my 1911, my M4, MP5, and Benelli Super 90.

By the Grace of God I am alive today.

Somewhere in the middle of 35 years of experience, somewhere in the middle of hundreds of armed confrontations, somewhere standing terrified and alone in the dark, somewhere in the middle of several dozen voir dire examinations---and somewhere standing quietly graveside the fallen commrade-----I came to understand.

I do not have all the answers. In fact, I don't really know very much at all.

Yet I see that others do.

I'm off to Africa for 3 weeks. Check with you all when I get back.

Have a great and safe trip! But most of all, have a great time!

Just some thoughts.....If I am going to point my gun at someone, I intend to kill them. If they are down, there is nothing good that can happen by me approaching them. Either they are not dead and I have to shoot them again and that begs the question "why did you shoot them again and again" in a court. If they are dead, the question changes to, "did you just HAVE to go over and inspect your work, or were you looking to shoot them again?" Let the professionals perform CPR, not my job man.

Ideally, I would kill them in the first encounter, so there are no other witnesses that could lie about the encounter and so there aren't two different sets of shooting angles. I would then cover and call. Win, survive and then call.

The question assumes that the dead/incapacitated bad guy is in your home. I don't carry a cell phone when I go out. I walk six or eight miles every other day to stay in shape. I always carry. If I take some wannabe mugger out on the street, all I can hope for is some passerby has a phone and calls the cops.

But I'm gonna shoot the guy until I'm dry or he's down. If he is down and still holding a firearm or knife, I'm gonna shoot him a couple more times for insurance. If it's two guys or more, I'm gonna shoot the most threatening first, and down the line in order of perceived threat.

I'm not worried about the aftermath. Hopefully, I'll be alive to depose.

Stop shooting when the threat has stopped.

When I took my concealed carry class here in Iowa, a retired deputy sheriff was the instructor. By the law here in Iowa, When encountering a BG and you draw your weapon, to legally cover yourself from prosecution you should state "stop or I will shoot you". Never say "stop or I will kill you". Having said that, the deputy also said that if you are in that situation, you will probably not have time to say anything scripted like that and, in his opinion, you should continue shooting the BG until he is no longer a threat (i.e. dead). As he puts it, "3 in the 10 ring, everytime".

if he threatens me, I shoot him with my P14. If he doesn't fall down and drop the weapon, I shoot him again (and again, and again) until he does. There are no "ifs, ands, or buts" in a self defense situation. As long as he is a threat keep shooting him/her.

Rich and his P14

As far as I am concerned, if a guy or gal attacks me with a weapon or otherwise gives me palpable fear of great bodily harm, there is still a threat until only one of us can tell their story.... hopefully me.

quote:

Originally posted by kodmag1:
When I took my concealed carry class here in Iowa, a retired deputy sheriff was the instructor. By the law here in Iowa, When encountering a BG and you draw your weapon, to legally cover yourself from prosecution you should state "stop or I will shoot you". Never say "stop or I will kill you". Having said that, the deputy also said that if you are in that situation, you will probably not have time to say anything scripted like that and, in his opinion, you should continue shooting the BG until he is no longer a threat (i.e. dead). As he puts it, "3 in the 10 ring, everytime".

There's a larger threat that you're not addressing:

When you draw your firearm, you provide the other person with legal and constructive justification to shoot you.

"He drew a gun on me!"

By the same token, we need to skip the part where you reach for the gun and warn, "I have a gun!"

"He went for his gun so I shot him!" That's the BG's defense.

"Stop or I'll shoot!" --

Yeah, well, if you've drawn the gun, you'd better be shooting. The first inkling the BG gets that you have a firearm is when the bullets are coming out the muzzle and headed his way.

Oregon law says, "Sufficient to stop the threat."

If the BG has a gun or knife, the "threat" stops when he no longer has the gun or knife. If he's still standing, he's still a threat.

Unarmed and can't stand. That'd be my criteria for "threat stopped."

It's over when he/she/they stop threatening me. Thats about that.

I read the original post. I'd have to say once the perp is down but not out, he has to be considered to still be a threat until any weapon he has is taken away or in some way made inert. I do not have a CCW and have never faced a dangerous situation. I'm just a good Christian boy who is home by sundown. I am going on what I think to be an intelligent response. I guess you'd have to risk getting close enough to disarm him, ever watchful of a possible grab by him at your weapon or at your feet. I suppose you are to keep your weapon high and work with your other hand at disarming him. If he moves in any way you think is hazardous to your health, you pop him one. Is that about right?

I would never approach a bad guy that was down and alive just to remove his weapon. If the cops get there and he is down and his gun is in the corner, the next comment by the BG, or his lawyer is "he told me to put my gun down and I did, then he shot me!"

Not on my watch. If he is that big a threat, I pull the gun with the intent to kill him, period. Otherwise I would not pull the gun.

There are no 'experts' in these cases. When shooting happens it's quick. If the BG is across a room (15 ft.) they can cover that ground in less time than you can say 'stop or i'll shoot'. There's lots of LE shootings that involve more than ten rounds fired on someone that was not visibly carrying a knife or gun. The latest in Colorado was three officers, one fired a bean bag and two shotgun rounds, the others fired more than 15 (Don't remember exact number). These only show me that shooting more than once is the norm - whatever it takes! SURVIVE!!