No......I'm not recommending the use of the .22 RF as a good choice for self defense.

I'm just asking what ammo YOU would use if you were limited to a .22 RF.

Thats a hard one because I find all 22 to be not as reliable as center fire.

The most relieable would be top of the line target ammo.

other then that I would go with Federal the Remington, Winchester, CCI. RWS, Ely all make good ammo.

22 magnums

CCI Stingers.

A .22 rimfire might not be a good self defense round, but I sure as hell would not want to be shot with one.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
CCI Stingers.

I was thinking along those lines too.

Either CCI Stingers or their Segmented HPs of the same bullet weight and velocity.

Or maybe the Aguila Super Maximum.

I should have said .22LR instead of just .22RF.

And I'm not limiting this to just pistols.

They would be my last choice due to poor penetration. I'd use 22 WMR fmjs. They penetrate like crazy. Still self defense rounds for me start at 357 caliber.

You fellows are missing the point with such cartridges as the Stingers. Those are made to explode basically. They are 22 RF varmit rounds. Unless you hit a human in the eye socket or between the ribs those's aren't going to do much. The plain round nose solid 22 RF would be better. The 22 mag RF better yet.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
A .22 rimfire might not be a good self defense round, but I sure as hell would not want to be shot with one.

I've seen a couple of dead bodies that would tell you the same thing ..... if they could speak.

Yes, folks. I know that the .22LR is not the ideal self defense caliber.

And yes, I know that the .22 Mag. is a better choice. But I'm trying to keep this thread focused on the .22LR. TIA!

So Joe, I take you've never shot anything with a stinger.

Just some info for you guys.



Lethality of the 22 LR(field tests)
hickokfamilygenealogy.com ^ | na | NA



So you think the 22 Long Rifle round is whimpy! Well, it's time to give this tiny 22 LR bullet the resepct it has earned and deserves. I have seen up close and personal what damage the 22 LR is capable of doing and I have a lot of respect for this little bullet, and you should too. It's not my caliber of choice when choosing a battle rifle but it can be used for defense, hunting and survival. Lethality of the Aguila SSS 60-grain round

Tests have revealed 16"-24" of penetration into ballistic gelatin at 200 meters using the Aguila SSS 60-grain bullet. I have not personally shot my Savage Mark II rifle that far yet but, at 100 yards I can keep all my rounds within 2 inches and there is no keyholing. I believe this round would prove fatal to anyone unlucky enough to be shot with it. Also, I have no doubt that this bullet would penetrate the human skull at 100 yards. The following article was posted by DesertFrog on: Sniper's Hide: For the Serious Tactical Marksman Lethality of the 22 LR standard velocity round

I've been shooting the 22LR for many years and even bought a new bolt action 22 LR rifle (Savage Mark II BTVS) so I could train more cheaply for tactical precision rifle matches. As I started to train, I actually became impressed with what could be achieved with the 22LR in short and medium distances and wondered about the actual lethality of the round, so I decided to do some research in that area.

I mean, I know that the 22LR has been a good hunting round for small critters/varmints such as rabbits and squirrels but occasionally you hear it is used as well for killing deers, coyotes and bigger animals - heck, on the internet, you can even find a story about the elephant being killed with a 22LR on the internet, LOL!

During my research, I came upon several instances whereby the 22 LR has also been used by the military and law enforcement as well. There were several stories of Chechen snipers using the 22LR in urban setting or Israeli snipers using it in "crowd control".

I started talking to several many people through bulletin boards to find more information about the lethality of that round, specifically from a tactical viewpoint - I.E. How effective and lethal is it? Any information about its lethality should also of interest to the average target shooters or even plinkers, being that it is one of most available/cheap round. Having the correct information could make people more aware of the possible consequences of not treating the 22LR with respect - I think we've all heard "It's just a 22! It's not that powerful, etc....

To get back to the subject, talking to hunters on various message boards and filtering out the "I heard that or someone told me", here are some of the typical feedback/information I received from people who actually did it:

Lots of varmint kills up to 150 yards (This distance came up the most). Larger animals kills at shorter distance - Deer/Coyotes at 100 yards and some even 150 yards . Mention of a larger animal kill at 200 yards. Mention of actual rabbit kills at 175, 225 and 330 yards.

Overall the distance of 100 to 150 yards came up in 50% of the responses.

To go back to the "tactical" aspect and the actual effectiveness/lethality of the round in military/law enforcement settings - no real information was actually available. There were lots of stories and hearsay of people getting shot with 22s and how effective it was (or wasn't) but no ACTUAL and PROVEN information - the main feedback was that shot placement was the most important in a military/law enforcement setting but there were no answers as to what would happen if someone was shot with a 22LR at medium distance (200 to 300 yards). When would the round stop penetrating several layers of clothing/skin and become completely ineffective and useless from a tactical point of view.

Gathering all the information from hunters, target shooters, etc....I personally came up with the conclusion that the 22LR "may be" effective up to 200 yards and possibly penetrate several layers of clothing which are usually something like a "t-shirt, a shirt and a jacket" and frankly I would not have been surprised if it didn't penetrate at all.

Actual information not being available, I decided to conduct a test myself to see how far would a 22LR round penetrate 3 layers of clothing and penetrate skin as well. I looked at several options such as using ballistic gel, wet newspaper, etc... but finally ended up with the cheapest option and, what I thought the somewhat most realistic as well: purchasing a frozen turkey, thaw it and wrap it in 3 layers of clothing. This would be a good test to see how far the 22LR would penetrate.

Here is an account of my "experiment" and Boy! Was I in for a surprise in many levels....

The test took place in the California desert at my usual shooting place for long distance shooting - far away from civilization and very safe. As it happens sometimes, nature has its own mind and does not always follow your plans. The weekend I chose and got ready for (including thawing the meat) ended up being quite windy.

How windy? Here is a look at my tent during the trip - yep, that's the wind pushing the side of the tent nearly flat. Wind was an average of 25 MPH with gusts up to 30 MPH and lowest at 18 MPH.



This was a nightmare for any rimfire shooter and frankly I was extremely close to just pack it up and go home after doing some shooting with my 308. I thought shooting the 22LR in these conditions (the wind was quite violent and shifting constantly between 18 and 30 MPH) would be absolutely impossible.

The main goal of the trip was this research and I already purchased the turkey so I decided to at least "try it" with much reservation as to being able to actually hit the target. Having participated in many tactical long distances matches over the years, I decided to follow my own hard learned lesson: "When in doubt, follow what the book says" or, simply, trust your ballistic information, instruments and basic field craft. Because I use the 22LR for training, I pretty much replicated my setup and had at hand all I needed such as ballistic data card for elevation and windage, wind meter and range finder.



The setup for the turkey was as follows: 3 layers of clothing wrapped around it and taped in the back (although care was given to not make the clothing too tight either) and a white paper on top so we could see the impacts at long distance.



The test was done at the maximum distance of 300 yards because honestly, I thought that penetration would probably not occur at that distance and because, above 300 yards, using my elevation knob and even mildots was pretty much useless.

A 400 yards shot is basically an 80 MOAs drop. Even shooting at 300 yards requires me to place my elevation for 200 yards 927.5 MOAs) and use 6.6 MILS (actually already off the mildots reticle so there is somewhat of a guess).

The clothing layers were composed of the following: One usual heavy cotton t-shirt, one heavy cotton shirt and a canvas raincoat.



The wrapped around turkey looked like this:



My son was with me and it took use considerable time to find the right location. Safety was definitely an issue but also, in order to have any chance to hit the target with winds that strong we had to shoot within the wind. Even then, because of the constant shifting of the wind from 7 to 5 O'clock, I had doubts we could even pull it off. So instead of 300 yards, we actually started at 250 yards which allowed me to use my elevation knob zeroed at 200 yards and my mildots reticle and thus "less guessing".

As you can see the package is quite small at 250 yards!!!! The wrapped Turkey was a bit bigger then a human head, it wasn't a big turkey to start with - I actually bought the cheapest one ($12.)



We positioned ourselves on top of the Jeep. My son used my 308 and the Leupold 6.5-20X to spot me (if we could do so) and I shot the 22LR.



Equipment was as follows:

Savage Mark II BTVS in 22 LR Bushnell 3200 Tactical Scope - 10X Mildots Ammunition was Wolf Match Target - 40 Gr Bullet - 1050 fps

Note that shooting in that position was not the most stable and 25-30 MPH wind actually WILL shake you around. I calculated the wind cycle to range from around 18 to 30 MPH. It was a quick wind cycle with periods of 18 MPH lasting only a 4-5 seconds at best. I decided to shoot at the lowest point of the wind cycle and simply use 0 windage as I was shooting in the wind.

My first round went slightly to the left missing the target by a couple of inches, my second round did the same on the right side and my third one actually hit the small turkey dead center. I was actually amazed!!! I was ready to shoot 50 rounds in those windy conditions to have some "Hope" to hit the target because, from what I was told, the 22LR is so unstable in the wind at long distance. Yet despite the atrocious conditions - using elementary ballistic information and field craft, shooting it in 18 to 30 MPH was factually quite easy. From a tactical viewpoint, every single shot would have hit a center mass target.

Inspecting the 250 yards target was quite revealing....the bullet had gone through the 3 layers as if it was nothing.

Encouraged by the results and the fact that we could hit the target, we placed the turkey at 300 yards. I spotted for my son and he took the shots. Again we were amazed that despite the wind we had 4 hits out of 10 rounds!!! If someone had told me he can shoot such a small target in those conditions, before we did so ourselves, I would have laughed.

Here was the result:



Note that the 300 yards round in the center seemed to have keyhole. The probability is that the bullet hit some of the sage brush that was moving around wildly in the wind because no other impacts showed signs of keyholing and we were somewhat shooting through the moving brushes.

Now the huge surprise was the following. After taking the shot at 250 yards I was quite happy to see that the bullet had penetrated the 3 layers of clothing but I would have never thought of actually checking the BACK OF THE TARGET.

After shooting the 300 yards and taking back the target to the Jeep, we realized that one round had gone through the whole turkey, the clothing layers in the front AND the layers in the back as well!!!!!! And this had to occur between 250 yards and 300 yards. This was MUCH MORE than I ever had anticipated for the standard velocity 22LR round!!!!!

Not only that but because the clothing was wrapped around and folded/taped in the back, it was the equivalent of shooting through 3 layers of clothing in the front and 6 LAYERS of clothing in the back plus on layer of duct tape!



We did one more shot at 100 yards and the round went through easily. The turkey was the equivalent of 7 inches of meat and bones.



Unwrapping the target showed that the rounds at 300 yards (assuming that the round that went through was probably the 250 yards round) went through the turkey and got stuck under the skin. Still penetrating 7 inches of bones and meat.



My conclusions:

I've gained a new respect for the 22LR and its efficiency. The 22 rounds is very underrated. It many ways, it is much more powerful then I anticipated.

From a tactical viewpoint, it was also very interesting that despite the atrocious conditions, basic ballistic information and field craft (wind cycle, shooting in the wind, etc...) make it possible to shoot effectively that round at medium distances.

300 yards can be a VERY doable and an effective shooting distance in normal conditions. We did it in terrible conditions.

Although I probably won't do further tests, I can imagine that round penetrating layers of clothing and be effective at much longer distances then 300 yards - maybe 500 yards and beyond.

But now I consider proven that within 300 yards it can be accurate and extremely lethal!!!

I hope this helps others to gain more respect for the small 22 Long Rifle bullet and thus make sure we all practice safe shooting, even if it looks like a tiny little round! This was my test of 22 LR ammo accuracy!

After sighting in my Savage Mark II G .22 rimfire rifle I conducted the following test with these 12 brands of ammo (shooting 10 round groups per target). The target was a Caldwell 3 inch stick-on orange circle placed in the center of my printer paper. I wanted to know which rimfire ammunition would give me the best group at 100 yards. I expected the match grade ammo to do the best, especially after hearing everybody bragging about Wolf Match Target, Aguilla Interceptor and Federal Gold Medal. All of the following brands of 22 LR ammo were tested.

1. Winchester, 40 grain solid 2. Federal Bulk from Wal-Mart, 36 grain HP 3. Federal American Eagle, 38 grain HP 4. Federal Gold Medal, 40 grain solid 5. Wolf Match Target, 40 grain solid 6. CCI Mini-Mag, 36 grain HP 7. CCI Mini-Mag, 40 grain solid 8. Remington Cyclone, 36 grain HP 9. Remington Thunderbolt, 40 grain solid 10. Aguilla Super-Extra, 40 grain solid 11. Aguilla 22 Interceptor, 40 grain solid 12. Aguilla Sniper Subsonic, 60 grain solid

The brands below are listed in order...1 through 3, 1 being the most accurate;

1. Thunderbolt 2. Aguilla Sniper Subsonic 3. Federal Bulk from Wal-Mart

The absolute worst ammo was the Aguilla Interceptor. This group was spread all over the place. It was fast, but not accurate. Aguilla 60 grain SSS ammo was used on this target. As you can see all of the rounds hit low and to the right because my scope was set for 40 grain ammo. This grouping was only 2 inches and if I set my scope for this ammo - Well, it would be quite deadly!



Thunderbolt ammo was used on this target - Grouping was just under 3 inches



Thunderbolt 22 LR ammo has gotten a bad rap about not being accurate and producing lots of duds. As you can see...Thunderbolt ammo can be quite accurate in a good rifle and I have never encountered one single dud.....ever!!! Match grade ammo is not needed to produce good accuracy (what you need is a good rifle).

Pdog:
Anyone who's ever seen what the CCI stinger do to a jackrabbit wouldn't be volunteering to stand in front of one.

Velocitor anybody?

CCI Stingers would be my choice as well. They are 'eventful' when they hit reactive targets.

Maybe so but they are surely lacking in penetration, which is always my first requirement.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Maybe so but they are surely lacking in penetration, which is always my first requirement.

Mike, how much penetration in calibrated ballistic gell would you consider "adequate" for self defense in a .22?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...r-segmenting-bullet/

Acts like a mini Barnes on wet phone books and drops Yotes, Skunks and Badgers right now.

A soft old human would be in deep doo doo !

The "perp" would probably expire before the Doc could find all the pieces after 10 rounds from a Ruger SR 22 landed between "wind and water".

sounds like the 22lr would be better than my 25auto. I wouldn't want to be shot by anything, that said, the gun you carry is better than the gun you don't. sometimes I can't pack a 45, but I can throw my 25 in my shorts pocket and take my dogs on a walk. A 22 would make a handy emergency gun.

I just got a sr22 handgun to teach my wife and kids with, I'll have to look into this further for my wife since I was thinking she'd need to get a 9mm if I could convince her to get a CCW. I do know that the federal bulk stuff is junk, won't feed reliably at all (about 2 in 10 jam) so it's getting used up in my bolt action 22.

I have always liked CCI ammo over the others, I've never tried any of this expensive fancy stuff though and will have to do so. Thanks guys for the info.

Red

Daman - Would this gun be used to shoot yourself in the foot or ass as is your common practice over on the Political Forum??

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by rdharma:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Maybe so but they are surely lacking in penetration, which is always my first requirement.

Mike, how much penetration in calibrated ballistic gell would you consider "adequate" for self defense in a .22?

Don't be hard on rdharma. At least he is making an effort to post something outside of the Political Forum.

FYI

- .22LR put Brady right down and nearly killed President Regan
- .22LR killed Bobby Kennedy, 37gr CCI .22 caliber "Mini Mag" gilded lead hollow points, and he went right down
- For years several "foreign operatives" used .22 Short in Beretta tip-up pistols to assassinate many "bad guys"
- There are few who could survive for any significant time several quick shots from a .22LR at short distance.

The only pistol my wife can handle with ease is a Walther in .22LR. The longest distance she would encounter in our house is less than 20 feet. Therefore, ten rounds of .22LR is her defensive weapon. She keeps it right next to my 1911.

And, rdharma, she loads standard 40gr solids from Remington because they feed the most reliably in her pistol and they have decent penetration for the round. It has enough penetration to pass through breastbone, ribs, and skull.

It's not the best choice for defensive use but it is deadly.

Woman Uses .22 Pistol to Shoot & Kill Invader:


13" of penetration in ballistic gel:

quote:

I do know that the federal bulk stuff is junk, won't feed reliably at all (about 2 in 10 jam) so it's getting used up in my bolt action 22.

I found the federal bulk to be the most reliable in my 10-22s, MK1 and buck mark by far.

Better then the remington.

Differant guns differant ammo.

Thats the main reason I would not carry a 22rf for selfdefense. No matter what ammo in the many 10s of thousands of rounds I have shot misfires, misfeeds are way more common then with center fire.

If I were carrying one of my 22s and needed to use it for selfdefense I sure would.

I've found the Remington ammo to feed extremely poorly in several autos, but gives good accuracy in bolt actions.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I do know that the federal bulk stuff is junk, won't feed reliably at all (about 2 in 10 jam) so it's getting used up in my bolt action 22.

I found the federal bulk to be the most reliable in my 10-22s, MK1 and buck mark by far.

Better then the remington.

Differant guns differant ammo.

Thats the main reason I would not carry a 22rf for selfdefense. No matter what ammo in the many 10s of thousands of rounds I have shot misfires, misfeeds are way more common then with center fire.

If I were carrying one of my 22s and needed to use it for selfdefense I sure would.

I have found the Federal bulk ammo to be some of the best in 22's that I've used for decades.

Isn't the 25 auto's smooth feeding the reason it was built in very small pistols for defense with reliability?

Not so sure the 60 grn aguilla will remain stabilized at any great distance.
I would just pick the 40 grn. high speed ammo with a solid bullet that penetrated the best. This will probably be a plated bullet that is hard enough to maximize penetration.

quote:

Not so sure the 60 grn aguilla will remain stabilized at any great distance

One needs a faster twist then the standard 22rf of 1 in 16 a 1 in 14 will barely do it.

I notice that in a 1 in 16 they become unstable around 45 yards or so.

Guess DaMan slithered away in the night? What a loser, now go ahead with the Forum posts on topic. Sorry for the rant, but he deserves it.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I have found the Federal bulk ammo to be some of the best in 22's that I've used for decades

They sure are inexpensive.

I've had no problems with velocitors. More expensive. But much more smack than the standard Federal bulk.

Why go cheap if you are using these for defense?

quote:

Originally posted by rdharma:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I have found the Federal bulk ammo to be some of the best in 22's that I've used for decades

They sure are inexpensive.

I've had no problems with velocitors. More expensive. But much more smack than the standard Federal bulk.

Why go cheap if you are using these for defense?

I only wished those cartons of them were $8.99 like they were once!!!!

Painfully obvious that no one has actually tried the new Winchester segmented 22 RFs on ballistic gel or wet phone books.
Debating the merits of cheap ammo when your life is on the line is silly...... like putting $50 tires on an M6.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Painfully obvious that no one has actually tried the new Winchester segmented 22 RFs on ballistic gel or wet phone books.

I didn't know Winchester had segmented 22s LRs.

I'll have to give 'em a try.

I knew DaMan couldn't stay hidden away for long!! Wonder if he is old enough or competent enough to own a gun. Doubt he could pass at least one of these tests.

Larry Sellers

RD, here'd the link to the WRA segmented ammo.
IME on large varmints, it makes a mess and then the base goes on though, rather like a Nosler Partition made small.

http://www.winchester.com/libr...ages/Varmint-HE.aspx

Who is "DaMan" ?

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
RD, here'd the link to the WRA segmented ammo.
IME on large varmints, it makes a mess and then the base goes on though, rather like a Nosler Partition made small.

Thanks for the link. The Winchester you described sound like the same idea as the CCI Velocitor. The Winchester uses a 37gr. and the CCI a 40 gr. The CCIs have about a 35fps faster "advertised" muzzle velocity.

I don't believe any advertised velocity figures. I verify (with a chrono) all ammo that I use on a regular basis in the firearm that I intend to use it in. Same goes for advertised ballistic coefficient.

Here's a pretty good video test of the CCI Velocitor. I will try a few boxes of the Winchester ..... but the Velocitors are my current favorite load for large varmints.

I had good reliabillity with the Velocitor in a Walther P22 and they are known for being picky. I believe the Velocitor could be a good option with a bit more penetration than the Stinger.

I know you are focused on .22lr but while researching an ammo purchase yesterday I was surprised to see that CCI is offering a Gold Dot and Hornady has a Critical Defense load both for the WMR. Seems there is enough demand for rimfire defensive ammo to spur that much development.

I use CCI mini mag hollowpoints in my little Beretta. They seem to penetrate reasonably well at handgun velocities and most importantly, it's the only load I've found that's 100% reliable in my gun.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I use CCI mini mag hollowpoints in my little Beretta. They seem to penetrate reasonably well at handgun velocities and most importantly, it's the only load I've found that's 100% reliable in my gun.

I've found the CCI Mini Mags (both HP and RN) to be about the most reliable .22LR ammo in semi-autos available.

I didn't notice anyone recommending the CCI SGB [Small Game Bullet] .I've heard excellent comments about it including on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by rdharma:

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I use CCI mini mag hollowpoints in my little Beretta. They seem to penetrate reasonably well at handgun velocities and most importantly, it's the only load I've found that's 100% reliable in my gun.

I've found the CCI Mini Mags (both HP and RN) to be about the most reliable .22LR ammo in semi-autos available.

My pistols seem to be a lot more finnicky than any of the rifles I've owned. The Beretta 21 I have won't make it through a full magazine without stovepiping at least 1 round with anything other than CCI. My Buckmark is better, but it doesn't like Remington Thunderbolts or Winchester bulk pack ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
The Beretta 21 I have won't make it through a full magazine without stovepiping at least 1 round with anything other than CCI.

I had a little Beretta Mod. 21 many years ago and was a jam-o-matic. It's one of the reasons I settled on the CCI Mini Mags as my "standard" .22LR ammo. The only ammo I could get it to run reliably.

If a semi-auto won't function reliably with Mini Mags, there's probably something wrong with the gun.