Hey guys, since I'm thinking about all this stuff might as well start another one for discussion and thought.

When I had my CCW before the instructor was ex-secret service, and also instructed for the FBI etc. I remember an interesting thing he told me/us in one of the classes (I think I did three with him over the 4 years I had my CCW).

He said to aim at the pelvis. that the head is the worst target to hit, it's always moving. The torso also moves, but the pelvis stays pretty stationary, and on the same plane. And if you hit somebody in the pelvis they go down.

Thoughts? I know in shooting we almost, or most people at least, practice center mass hits, anybody ever practice shooting the pelvic area or elsewhere?

Red

Aiming for center of visible mass is where you should start-the biggest target. Ideally, of course, we aim for center chest, in order to quickly damage heart/lungs & CNS to STOP the threat. If that fails, yes, the pelvis is a better target than the head (only about a 3X3 lethal zone but you may knock the dude out with a peripheral hit....) while the pelvis is about 7x10 (either side) on a adult male of average size. The goal is to hit either left or right center hip, in order to damage hip joint/upper femur-where all support and a major (femoral) artery is located. If the center chest hits fail (meaning body armor?) or is not visible, stopping the threat by immobilzing is next best. Remember, the bad guy may be immobilized, but probably not incapacitated immedately(even if the femoral is damaged)so, you may need to focus on a stopping hit (now the head is at least more stationary, and the effect of armor is reduced buy either engaging above and into, or below and into vital chest areas.

All this of course, will likely occur in seconds, so practicing on partial targets, at odd target and gun angles, helps understand the process better.

Summary: Aim center mass, then aim at next largest most vulnerable target area, re-assess and re-engage or retreat (maybe both?), all while seeking hard cover.

Drills- with target marked with BA outline, aim at hips, then engage target leaning at 30 deg front & back and at side angles-you'll see how much smaller both the head/upper/lower torso become.... Placement and Bullet penetration becomes paramount.

"Front sight, Front sight, press".

Best

I too had heard that a pelvis hit will cause the target to "go down". I guess the other reason, as mentioned above, is that body armor may not go down that far.
Peter.

Better not tell it to the ladies--- you can guess which part of the pelvis THEY aim for--- little head!!

Red, I think it depends on what you are trying for. Yes, the pelvis area is the most static region of the body. It takes longer to move, twist or otherwise get it out of the way than any other area of the body. There are two large nerve centers in center mass, which I consider this. Ine is the Solar Plexis and the other is the groin. If you break the pelvis, it certainly will be difficult to move.

Good thought.

Shoot for what you can hit. A high chest neck head shot most likely the best. Hitting is what counts. I am going to try for a high chest shot if I can ,if not that I'll take any hit to the body I can get.

Hopefully more then one I carry a repeater so I can shoot more the once.

Dago Red,

This is always an interesting question. The comments below apply to STOPPING an attack NOW (or as soon as possible) when your life depends on it. Not having them bleed out in an hour or two, dieing from infection in an ICU, having a foot drop from a motor nerve injury, or wearing a colostomy for 3 months then getting put back together... You need the attack to stop now! Immobilizing the perp doesn't always stop the attack!

The pelvis is like a pretzel. It has to break in 2 places to loose structural stability. If this happens, most will drop. However, the iliac crests and the sacrum are big flat bones and a handgun bullet will often punch a hole through these bones without shattering them and without disrupting the pelvic ring. Then the perp doesn't drop (unless he's conditioned to since he got shot and he thinks he's supposed to drop because that's what bad guys do who get shot in movies! The good guy can keep going shot in the same place! ). The femoral head and the proximal femur (neck, lesser and greater trochanter) are outside of the pelvis and are more lateral and lower than many people think. Shattering the proximal femur usually limits a person's mobility and they often drop, but sometimes don't behave as expected. It is also a much smaller target (2 finger widths) than center mass and is a small target compared to the pelvis.

The pelvis has a lot of blood vessels but the arteries are smaller branches off of and below the aorta and get smaller the further they go down the trunk and the extremities. The femoral artery is below the pelvis and is the diameter of your little finger so is not much of a target. It bleeds briskly if transected and is close to the surface so often won't tamponade in the surrounding tissue so most with this injury don't go very far, but don't drop. The veins pretty much run with the arteries and are similar sized which does increase the vascular area size some and chance ofa significant injury. Still, compared to the size of the pelvis, the major vessels are a small target. You can exanguinate someone from transecting a small vessel, but it can take a while.

Hitting the bladder, small bowel or large bowel will ruin someones day or week or life but are not incapacitating injuries when you want to stop someone now!

The nerves in the pelvis are branches from larger nerves high up and are fanning out (arborization...like tree limbs branching and fanning out and getting smaller, much like blood vessels do also) when they enter the pelvis and are not a "nerve center." You clip the femoral nerve and that thigh won't work. The same is true for motor nerves to other muscle groups but all are much smaller than the spinal cord so unlikely to be reliably hit. Hitting the sympathetic and parasymathetic nerve plexuses in the pelvis do not incapacitate. One may loose bowel, bladder or erectile function, but that won't stop an attack acutely.

Psychological factors and pain and its perception are a different story. If you shoot someone attacking you in the chest several times and he keeps coming, body armor or not, I don't think he's responding to pain or fearful of his own demise! He won't quit so you have to stop him.

The vital triangle (nipples to neck) has the highest concentration of big blood vessels in the body and the brain shuts off guickly from circulatory collapse depriving the brain from oxygenated blood. That's why we shoot big game animals in the heart-lung (vital) area. Shoot a deer, elk bear, buffalo, elephant in the pelvis, you will contribute to his death but rarely stop him. Humans are no different. Lots of important structures in the pelvis but few are big and few are major enough to stop the target with a handgun.

Central nervous system (brain and upper spine) shots effect people like they do animals. Destroy the lower brain or upper spine (between the ears) and death is virtually instant. It is a small, fairly mobile target but very effective when hit. That's why stopping a charge from dangerous game usually involves a brain shot. Shooting the head (seperate from the face but may be reached through the face from the front) and penetrating the cerebral cortex (larger part of the brain), death may not be instant but unconsciousness usually results. Usually death will occur shortly but the assault is stopped now. The skull and facial bones must be penetrated and that doesn't always happen with a handgun.

If center of mass hits fail to stop a life threatening attack on me, I like the probability of a CNS hit stopping the attack much better than a pelvic hit. Or several CNS hits over several pelvic hits... Just my opinion. I don't shoot people but I have done pelvic surgery for over 2 decades.

Best,

jpj3.

If you aim at the upper chest your hands and weapon block out the suspects hands and hand movements. Aiming at their crotch lets you view more of the suspects movements and if you must shoot, you can either shoot them in the crotch or raise slightly for a double tap to the chest.

The psychological perspective of being shot in the family jewels doesn't hurt either.

shoot em in the pants, the coat and vest belong to me

Kind of a side issue, but what if you whack a guy in the pelvis and he stops attacking you? Maybe he pitches his gun and gives up. Then what? If you let him live, you'll be paying for his kids and grandkids to go to college. If you drill him again, you're probably facing worse legal problems because it'll be argued that it was no longer self defense (ala the pharmacist in OK). If you shoot to stop the attack and kill (God forbid), might not things be legally "cleaner"? Just wondering...

Ohhh....you said pelvis.

P

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Ohhh....you said pelvis.

P

Additional theories on shooting for the pelvis..

If you have made a few chest shots, and the bad guy is still up, then it is easier to hit the pelvis than the head.

If the bad guy has an edged or other contact weapon, even a chest shot might not keep him from getting to you, a couple of pelvis shot might knock him down...

Center of Mass -- where-ever that might be, depending on their orientation.

If you can't hit it without aiming, they're not close enough to injure you, unless they're shooting back.

Lots of vasculature in the pelvis, couple glands, some serious veins/arteries, also a really significant bone structure in terms of standing and moving.

But shooting at the largest target, center of mass, is always your best shot.

Not that it matters, but I agree with the doc.

If I am not absolutely sure I can hit the head, I'll go for the vital triangle. A vital hit there can kill even if he is already hooked up for an on-site IV transfusion.

After the transfused blood gets to the heart, it still has to go through the lungs/heart for re-oxygenation, then on to the brain, or the life-motor just plain stops running.

Consider the goals of an armed aprehension by a USSS agent,.... if one is talking about a protection detail....

They want to not only stop the immediate threat but to have someone alive for questioning in case of a "conspiracy"
against their protectee.

shooting against the most static part of the body and an area where there is a lot of plumbing that feels pain they can get a quick incapacitation and a "Mobility kill" while minimizing the risk that they will need to conduct their post-arrest interrogation interview via Ouija board.

quote:

conduct their post-arrest interrogation interview via Ouija board.

vs. water board?!!!!
Peter.

A good friend of my son told me that when he was in Iraq that he quickly learned that hitting a terrorist/insurgent in the pelvis was a sure fire way to drop him and take him out of the conflict. He told me it is an effective target for our soldiers. When clearing houses, he carried an MP4, shooting .45 acp slugs. I imagine one of those big bullets would make quite a mess of the pelvic area.

I read somewhere, for the life of me I do not remember where, in the days of the wild west 'professional' gunslinger / desperado & lawman, in order to put some one down and out with the handguns fo the time they aimed for the pelvis.

Break the supporting skeletal structure, they go down. Then shoot them again...

DLS, thanks for that information. I don't think we hear a lot of "field research" most of the guys not wanting to talk about it maybe?

Red

I agree with the doctor as well, I will add that shooting someone in the pelvis with a rifle vs a handgun will have very significant outcomes. When or if I ever need to engage a threat with deadly force I will start on the top half and work my way down.

As most encounters happen QUICK--

and as most guns are drawn from waist or pocket carry--

it is logical to fire quickly into the pelvis/lower abdomen--

and fire in a vertical string as recoil brings the weapon's elevation up.

{Edit: Implication vertical string
(2 or more after !st) up toward center mass.}



Central pelvis hits are quite likely to encounter bone--

either pubic or sacral dependent on angle and penetration--

resulting in fragmentation and secondary missiles.

At pelvis to low abdomen with lateral impact the illiac arteries may be encountered.

This tactic is called MODIFIED MOZAMBIQUE ,WE REMEBER THE MOZAMBIQUE,designed by an operator killed in RHODESIA and disciple of Jeff Cooper.The MOZAMBIQUE fires a double tap in the chest and then an aimed shot in the head ,but if the adversary is using head protection or you didnt see results you must go to the pelvis and WE TEACH TO SHOOT UNTIL HE FALLS.
Regarding stopping power YOU DONT HAVE ISNTANT STOPPING POWER WITH ANY HANDGUN PERIOD.Unless you hit THE SOFTWARE or the central nervous system.
I saw many people shot during my residence as a general surgeon and during my service ,besides that i killed many,many game with handguns just to make experience and saw interesting conclusions ,but WE MUST READ COL.FACKLER works and forgot MARSHALL SHANOW noscientific works.
If you hint the pelvis in rapid fire at least 4 shots you have a great posibility of putting the guy down BUT HE WILL CONTINUES FIRING YOU.
a BIG PELVIS FRACTURES LOSSES 2500CC OF BLOOD

I looked up Col Fackler on google and found some of the studies very interesting.....for those of you so inclined it is easy to research.

If I am attacked and have to use my little .380 to defend myself seems like it has to be a head shot through soft tissue such as the eye or neck. Same might well hold true for my 9mm.

Comments?

And for those interested since Juan brought this up.....

http://jeffcoopersmozambiquedrill.blogspot.com/

The Reset Shuffle

On any self-cocking handgun, when you fire a shot and release the trigger, the trigger begins its journey back to its starting position in anticipation of firing the next shot. The trigger first passes through the point where it resets itself (you can usually hear and feel the click) and then on to the end of whatever take-up factor, if any, is part of your trigger system. If you release the trigger entirely after the shot, as beginning shooters are wont to do, you have to start your trigger pull all over again for the follow-up shot. There is no need to waste all this mental and trigger-finger time and energy. Much more compact movement is possible.

If you think from the very beginning in terms of multiple shots, keeping the trigger pressed back as your gun fires and then, with your finger never leaving the trigger, allowing it to begin its return journey just to the point where it resets, you can fire again immediately. The trick is to maintain contact between trigger-finger and trigger throughout the firing sequence, also a prime component of “follow-through,” and make the finest possible press-release-press movements with your finger to keep your pistol operating without interruption.

On semiautomatics with short trigger resets, notably 1911s and Glocks, you can get off multiple shots amazingly fast. I used to shoot competition matches
I found this extremely interesting. Anyone use this method?
Peter.

Bill it seems we have a discrepancy in definitions of "double tap".
1.The concept of the Double-Tap is not one shot followed up quickly with another separate shot. The two shots must strike almost simultaneously, a double-barreled effect, in order to multiply the shock and destruction of the first shot. Two separate, aimed shots, even if they are fired within a brief interval of time, make up a “controlled pair,” which is not a bad thing but is not nearly as effective as a Double-Tap. Two shots that merge into one with a single aiming point and sight picture is what makes a Double-Tap.

2.A double tap is a shooting technique where two well-aimed shots are fired at the same target with very little time in between shots. The term hammer is sometimes used to describe a double tap in which the firearm's sights are not reacquired by the shooter between shots.

To put it another way, the question is: "Are the sights reacquired (ie. the recoil brings the front sight back down before you fire the second shot) between shots?". Your link seems to say NO, however, other folks eg. Matt Burkett seem to say Yes! In my personal experience I cannot get two A zone hits from 10 yards by firing two shots in the method stated in your link ie. two shots as fast as possible (sometimes called a "hammer"). This is using a comped 38Super using IPSC major loads (old standard).
Peter.