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| One of Us |
I'm not going to carry anything smaller than a .357 in a revolver or a .45 in an automatic. But, my daughter is about to go through the CCW process. She's a better pistol shot than I am, but what is a good concealed weapon for a little girl. She's my little girl, but she's physically little as well. I'm thinking a compact 9mm? Is that too much? Should she go to a medium sized 9? Any suggestions? | ||
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Walther PPK in .32 acp. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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It will depend on her ability and her build. Nothing meant by the last part but a larger, not necessarily fatter, woman can usually carry and conceal a larger firearm than a smaller woman. If she can successfully carry, conceal, and operate a compact shooting .45, 9mm, or .357 then those are recognized performers. That said, I know three very small women who regularly carried Walther PPs. One carried a .380 but two carried .32ACP because that was all they could reliably load, cycle, and fire with their small weak hands. I taught dozens of women to shoot their firearms and also graded qualification fire of many more who were taking the local PD courses. Nearly all could hold and shoot just about anything. But not all could load, cycle, and clear stoppages. The biggest problem they had was with racking the slide back on an auto. Too many lacked the hand and arm strength to pull the slide all the way to the rear. I successfully taught many of the smaller ladies to hold the slide with one hand and push the frame forward as opposed to the conventional way of pulling the slide back. that really makes it a lot easier to rack the slide. But some ladies still could only manage it with a .380 or .32ACP. The force required to pull the slide back on a .32ACP is less than on a .380 which is less than on a 9mm, and so forth. . | |||
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I think grenadier has it right, with the exception that, IMHO, the force required to pull back the slide on a 380 is MORE than that for a 9mm because the 380 slide and frame is smaller and therefore there is less surface to grip. I have a Bernadelli 380 and it is a bear for me to rack the slide, and I have no problem racking the slide on 38 Supers, 9x21 etc all of which are set up to make major. I would suggest a Ruger LCR which I own and carry perhaps more than any other carry gun. Mine is in 38 Special, and, the trigger is phenominal! However, she should try it first to make sure that the recoil and noise is OK for her. If it is uncomfortable for her to practice with, then she won't practice! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Let her choose what she wants. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I offered mine a .32 PPK, my favorite collector's pistol after I found out she cleared a table of milk bottles with it faster than most men could guzzle down a beer. With Remington Saber, the way she handles and shoots it, I feel safe for her. | |||
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If she can shoot well let her chose my daughter loves my PPKS but for some strange reason about every 3rd or 4th shot she dumps the mag. She carries a 2 in 38 I seen her run 6 for six soda cans at 25 yards double action with her 4 inch model 10. Take her to the store let her handle a lot of different ones her choice might surprise you, | |||
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I do not know your daughter and am NOT commenting on her. I have always been of the mindset that if a less experienced person gets into a bad situation, things should be as simple as can be. No safety, no mag release, no cocking, no fear of jamming. Just a loaded, ready to shoot gun. S & W, stainless, 38spl. I never will forget the billboards of the girl that was abducted down in Galveston after she was run off the road. I'll bet she was beyond scared and may not have even been able to remember to disengage a safety. I would hope she could have pulled the trigger. Did they ever find her ? | |||
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S&W Model 60 38 special caliber 5 shot stainless steel revolver. You want a 'yank and crank' handgun, not a 'is the safety off; is there a round in the chamber; how do I clear this type of a jam?' handgun. | |||
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Thanks for all the responses. My daughter is 5'7" and hopefully 100 lbs. Lane, I actually like the .32 ACP. Bought a Walther PP for my wife. She thought it was too loud. Little light for my taste. Shoot, The S&W M60 is my favorite revolver for carry. I carry full house .357's but .38's might work great for her. Or simply a Chief's Special might work better for her. Agree, it can't get any simpler. JWP, Good point. I think what I'm going to do is give her a series of courses with her girlfriend so they can go to the range, get private instruction, and rent a variety of pistols so they can decide what suits them best. My 1911 might not be it for them. | |||
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Wow That is slim. | |||
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P dog, That she is. An afterthought, my reference to offering a course for her and her girlfriend was related to the ranges here in Houston offering Ladies Only classes, which I thought would make her more comfortable if she went with a friend, who happens to be a girl. I also offered to pay for classes for her and her boyfriend (in a more traditional sense). It's hell having to deal with modern interpretations of what used to be terms that were not easily misinterpreted not so long ago. | |||
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My mother who has very arthritic hands and has never had much hand strength carries a Walther PP in .32 ACP. It is the only pistol she can rack the slide back on. She only shoots occasionally...but she can reliably shoot the Walther .32. I think it is a good choice for girls/women that have a weak grip. My wife carries .45 just like me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, You put some Silvertips in that .32 and they are pretty devastating. I agree. That may be her best choice. Or a .380 ??? | |||
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She should carry a .380 if she can rack the slide and operate it without difficulty, a .32ACP if she cannot. Bigger is better but usability is a higher priority. . | |||
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Grenadier, Agreed. Will give me an excuse to buy a Colt Mustang. | |||
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Don't forget that another problem regarding semiautomatic pistols is limp wristing (seems to be more prevalent with females). Yet another plus for revolvers. | |||
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I just bought a Glock 43 for my wife.....damn fine shooter, I liked it so much I bought one for me too! Women have a distinct advantage over men with concealed carry in the fact that they carry a purse. Those tiny pistols are hard to "hit" with the 43 is for darn sure shootable and safe to carry. . | |||
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Ever hear of "purse snatching? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Another plus for the Walther PP/PPK...they are shooters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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When I had my FFL in late 70s I had a lot of guys in the company going offshore for the first time in their married lives and wanted something for their wives while away. This wasn't a carry issue but it was a woman issue. Since I knew none of them were going to become gun nuts and practice, I always recommended small 38 revolvers for the reasons posted above. I sold a truck load of Charter Arms Undercover 38s. The few guys that opted for more sophisticated choices just wanted an excuse for a new toy for themselves  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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My daughter is a pretty good pistol shot. Better than me, but that's not saying much. She just needs to get used to the limited recoil associated with a .45 ACP. We just need to determine what's the ideal for her. | |||
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'The limited recoil associated with the 45 ACP'? Compared to what, the 44 Magnum? | |||
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Whenever this comes up there is always a ton of recommendations made that I don't get. The main one is that a gun with a safety or a lever to release the slide, and a magazine release is somehow to complicated for women. I strongly disagree. The other one is to recommend the smallest caliber pistol possible. Again I disagree. No matter who is being attacked the stress level they see is highly elevated. The only way to overcome this is through practice and practical drills. This same practice and drill will make them familiar enough to be comfortable with the firearm of choice. There are so many subcompact auto's to choose from in 9mm or .40 that recommending a .32 or .380 seems less than well thought out. The purpose of a small gun is concealment. If you are going to have a woman carry concealed it should be ON HER PERSON. NOT in her bag. Handbags get grabbed and if left in the cart while shopping as most women do it is of little worth out of reach. The advice to let her choose I think is smart with some guidance, and letting her rent a few to try is smart. I am carrying a Sig P938 this time of year because it can be concealed even wearing a t-shirt with shorts. Being a 9mm, it is available with some very effective 124gr ammo that will outperform 115's, and 147's both. It being able to be carried in condition one requires a safety to be released but it is quickly second nature to anyone who's practiced. The only issue that is difficult is loading a magazine ahead of time. They are very stiff sprung. I can teach nearly any woman to rack a slide on an auto with some technique. My wife is 5'4" and though she's not as skinny as the OP's daughter, her hand size and strength is plenty to manipulate the slide on the P938 as well as bigger pistols we have. Ask a woman if size matters and they'll tell you it does. Bigger isn't always better, but to small is totally unacceptable.  | |||
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Yup, that is the reason revolvers are so great for women (and men). No slide to retract, no safety to operate, no wondering if there is a round in the chamber, no limp wristing induced jams, no remembering how to clear different types of jams, no ejecting dud rounds. YANK AND CRANK (times 5 or 6) with zero jams (and quickly skipping dud rounds) is what you want in a stressful situation. Especially for those who do not practice regularly. | |||
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I agree totally Nate. I personally don't hardly carry anything smaller than .45. But...there is something about a PP/PPK in .32 acp that makes it easy for a woman with arthritic or poor gripe to pull the slide back. For my mother...we tried every 9 made and she could not rack them back but a PPK she could. And everything besides .32 acp made her hands ache bad the next day. And...a Walther PPK with decent .32 acp rounds ain't shabby in a gun fight at 3-5 feet...and certainly better than a club. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Something is always better than nothing. It's been my experience da revolvers are not easy for most to shoot well. Learning to shoot whatever you carry well, and practice drills is what will matter in a bad situation. The amount of practice needed for proficiency with a revolver may well be cut down using an automatic. | |||
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For those recommending "Yank&Crank" method, you could be needing a new wife. Not once have I seen a professional ever even use this term. Let alone teach it. Most new wheelgun shooters hit lowand right(if right handed) and six loud noises is just that. Then there's the accountability for those fired shots. Take them out to shoot different guns. See what they shoot well, and what's comfortable in they're hands. If you let them choose the learning curve will be entirely different. | |||
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Big Nate: Whoa there big fella! 'Yank and crank' is just an expression, nothing more. More practice needed to shoot a revolver than a semi-auto pistol? I call crapola on than bullpucky. A monkey can operate a revolver. More difficult to shoot? Nope, much simpler to shoot (see my previous posts). Nice try.... | |||
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My opinion of revolvers for the purpose has nothing to do with women's physiology and everything to do with novice shooters who are often uncomfortable with guns to begin with. In the case above it happened to be women. Very few of them take the time to test drive different weapons. Professional trainers and CHL instructors see a select minority of people that have a more developed interest than most. And usually a willingness to invest enough money. I think it's less than responsible to recommend an automatic to a neophyte that you know will have no interest in shooting practice or drills. Like it or not 70% of the handguns bought are not for carry. They get put in a bedside safe or drawer until needed; usually never. Many are not even test fired before going in the drawer. If they are ever carried, you have a novice with a round chambered which is trouble waiting to happen, or a novice afraid to carry with a round chambered who is then at a distinct disadvantage if they need their weapon. Revolvers solve all of the above issues as well as one weapon can. Yes, they may tend to shoot low right but a cheap revolver will at least make those five or six shots where a cheap auto may not make the first. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this. Revolvers being what they are don't solve all the issues. Yes they are simple, but my point is that anyone wanting a loved one to protect themselves should also understand that the choice of hardware won't make up for lack of practice. Ever. Personally I don't think a safety lever is very complicated for any of the women I know, or have trained. Flat small auto's are easier to conceal on skinny people. A big person with bulges can hide nearly anything. Big people in general wear looser fitting clothes, where skinny people tend to wear more form fitting clothes, especially women. My wife can out-shoot me with my SP101 but it isn't comfortable in an IWB holster, and bulges significantly with an OWB holster. A LadySmith or similar is better for concealment but not any easier to shoot well. Ultimately, as I've tried to point out already, it matters little what you choose if you don't have it on you due to inconvenience, comfort, or lack of conceal-ability. It will be ineffective if you can't shoot it well. I wish all of you and yours well, as I hope none of us have to tell any stories about how our choices worked out. | |||
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I don't think we disagree so much as we are discussing two different cases. You're talking about people who will train and I'm talking about people who won't. Unfortunately my group is the majority. So I think they need simple just to be safe. | |||
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I guess I just don't encourage carry by anyone who doesn't practice. | |||
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Me neither today, but gun stores have to sell guns if they want to stay in business. How are they expected to sort that out? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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If thinking outside of the box suits you, get a 9mm Makarov. They used to be available at very reasonable prices and the cartridge is better than a .32 ACP or .380. It's a very reliable sidearm. I've fired them many times and like them. If you like the cartridge but not the pistol, then CZ makes (or at least used to make the CZ82 which you might be able to find) an excellent pistol for it. http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/makarov/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTDIIdFefks _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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My daughter remember your CZ she used on poppers! Having used a PPk .380, a S&W 60 with bobbed hammer and a Makarov, I can add my .02 cent. Indeed, the 9mm Makarov hits hard and metal plates were falling faster than with my 60 using +P ammo or my PPk with defense rounds. The PPk bites hard except with a bony hand. The 60 was my favorite. The Makarov is heavier than the two others, more bulky and trigger is not that great (I could chose mine and got a good trigger that improved after shooting 500 rounds and a slight trigger job) | |||
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Just about everybody I know who has fired a PPK has at one time or another bloodied the web of their hand between thumb and index finger. Still, it's a good, well-made little pistol. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Hmm, did James (Bond) have that problem as well? Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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To paraphrase CSM Plumley, "James Bond was a pussy". _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I agree with shootshellz, I think you should get her a small frame 38 Smith and Wesson like the model 60 Chief's. | |||
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