I note the second paragraph in this cut and paste concerning this weeks recent terror attack. The French police use 9mm Parabellum Sig-Sauer Model 2022 pistols.

quote:

Brahim al-Aouissaoui, 21, from Tunisia, beheaded one 60-year old woman at the Riviera town’s Notre-Dame Basilica on Thursday morning, slit the throat of sexton Vincent Loquès, 55, and stabbed to death 44-year-old mother-of-three- Simone Barreto Silva.

He was Tasered and then shot 14 times by police who arrived on the scene when the alarm was raised. He is being treated in hospital and is still in a critical condition.

Presumably with this ammunition:

https://www.tactical-life.com/...ational-police-ammo/

quote:

Speer has won a contract to supply the French National Police with its 124-grain, 9mm Luger Gold Dot Duty ammunition . The contract is for an undisclosed amount, and the press release describes it as a “long-term” deal.

Doesn't take long to shoot 14 rounds.

Could easily be done before the first shot takes effect.

Also unknow where the shots were placed.

One intendent does not make for a caliber failure.

If you look at the after action pictures of Aoussaoui, he was hit in the legs, side, elbow, groin (that's groin to hurt), collarbone, and shoulder.

The cops must have gone to the Joebiden shoot them in the legs firearm training class.

Doesn't matter the caliber, bullet design, or velocity, if you miss the vitals, you miss the vitals. I would also like to see the blood toxicology report. A little meth keeps folks fighting long after they should. But with a heart, spinal cord, or frontal lobe shot all the meth or PCP in the world won't fix that.

Picture - https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2...-4_1604029949984.jpg

I'm looking at the entry wound just adjacent to his left collar bone? If it's an entry wound then there must be serious concerns on that bullet there having failed to fragment? For an effective bullet design would have broken apart into secondary fragments of jacket shards that would have internally punctured the windpipe and/or the carotid artery?

Gold dots don't fragment.

There has been whole books written on what type of handgun bullets are the best for self-defense against humans.

One camp favors fragmenting bullets other side prefers more penetration.


The whole debate has been centered around the FBI protocol based on the Miami shoot out.

Most handgun bullets are made to meet that protocol and fragmenting bullets do not.

Here are some links that will help explain it better.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com...ity%20and%20accuracy.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FB...tion%20Protocol.html

http://www.gunsholstersandgear...ncy-to-self-defense/

Thank you P DOG that's an interesting American perspective.

Over here in the UK the camp (from when I mixed with those circles) was that faster was better and if it fragmented so much the better. And tough luck on the surgeons who hated them as they risked cutting themselves on the jacket fragments when operating on someone shot with such. That objection was something you always were told.

Thank you for the links. It's all about retained weight it seems as the goal. Whereas here it was held that multiple secondary missiles was better as they'd cut and slice blood vessels and/or vital organs. Yes those Gold Dots simply seem an attempt to help the 9mm bullet attain the diameter that a .45 bullet already possesses.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If you look at the after action pictures of Aoussaoui, he was hit in the legs, side, elbow, groin (that's groin to hurt), collarbone, and shoulder.

The cops must have gone to the Joebiden shoot them in the legs firearm training class.

Doesn't matter the caliber, bullet design, or velocity, if you miss the vitals, you miss the vitals. I would also like to see the blood toxicology report. A little meth keeps folks fighting long after they should. But with a heart, spinal cord, or frontal lobe shot all the meth or PCP in the world won't fix that.

Picture - https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2...-4_1604029949984.jpg

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^. 14 shots & only one is close to center mass. Were they trying to kill him with the death of 1000 cuts?

quote:

Over here in the UK the camp (from when I mixed with those circles) was that faster was better and if it fragmented so much the better. And tough luck on the surgeons who hated them as they risked cutting themselves on the jacket fragments when operating on someone shot with such. That objection was something you always were told.

A couple of books you should read are Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers.

By Even P Marshall and Edwin J Sanow.

I found them to be most interesting.

Thank you for the book advice. I shall see if they are online. Thank you. Sounds good.

Where did I did I get told what I got told? Well before even the internet existed...I thought about a career in forensic ballistics and met quite a few people here in the UK that had their careers in that field. One was Major Freddie Mead. Google him as "Freddie Mead Forensics" and he was the expert in a number of infamous murder trials after he'd left the British Army.

I also recall a lecture by the guy that did the wounds survey after the Falklands War in 1982 that was also did a lot of gunshot surgery in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. He of the Falklands wound survey was the one that said heavy and fast is best but if you can't get heavy and fast then lighter and fast (as fast if it hits bone sends bone fragments out as secondary missiles) beats heavy and slow.

It was quite a gory lecture with x-rays and pictures. And also produced the advice to fight naked if you'd the choice as if you got shot bullets striking webbing caused tumbling and horrendous wounds as well as sucking in clothing material from your dirty uniform into the wound cavity.

I shall have a look for the books. I'm sorry that I can't remember the name of the man that did the Falklands survey.

It would be interesting to note what was in the gendermes pistol mags at the actual time.
The after-action report of the FBI Miami shootout speaks volumes. Shotguns work amazingly well in LE
shootouts without civilians too close.
As a retired agent with other combat time, I go with the SAS and SFOD-Delta-they still train and carry to win. It remains to be seen how much the French police train realistically with their weapons.

I think that it's an historical thing with, certainly, French police forces in that as the pistol was almost a symbol of office everybody carries. Whereas here with the British police few carry but those that do practice usually at least once a week.

One thing that Freddie Mead said was that at the ranges that buckshot is lethal (up to twenty yards) so, too, at the same range birdshot is equally as lethal. Yes you can get killed at greater distance with buckshot but if you do it's almost bad luck.

The Falklands man also dispelled the myth of the 5.56mm creating more horrendous wounds than the 7.62mm. Saying that the worst wounds created by military FMJ 7.62mm were far worse than the worst wounds created by FMJ 5.56mm.

quote:

One thing that Freddie Mead said was that at the ranges that buckshot is lethal (up to twenty yards) so, too, at the same range birdshot is equally as lethal. Yes you can get killed at greater distance with buckshot but if you do it's almost bad luck.

I have fired and seen fired thousands of rounds of OO buck.

When fired from a "standard Cly bore riot gun. under 25 yards is best.

When fired from a properly choked barrel 40 or 50 yards is do ably.

As long as you don't need a lot of penetration.

Federal flight control buck loads seem to be some of the best for grouping.

Tom Bell from EL Paso Texas was shot 13 times by Mexican police with 45 ball ammo and lived, the old wives tale that a 45 is as big as an expanded 9mm is a poor comparison, the 45 acp is round and smooth, and the killing part of a bullet is the expanding movement as a bullet passes through, don't belive it? then just look at the damage and the cone of the passage of a bullet in gell as it passes through a block, flesh or wet newspaper. Also check the time proven police records on the fabled 45 as compared to a Hp 9mm...Now this score can even up when you shoot the 45 ACP with the 230 gr. Hydra shok Jacketed Hollow point by Federal and some recent others, then you have a case to defend, but you only have 7 rounds to do it with so don't miss.

There's a hell of a difference shooting at targets verses people, particularly if their armed.

Dave

Gold Dots have been around for a while and are well proven. They have been dubbed 'the flying ashtray' for their large hollow point cavity. The 'Failure Drill' (also referred to as the Mozambique') is two rounds center mass and a third to the head. This is the accepted technique when other 'shots' have failed.
Lt.Col. Dave Grossman in his seminal book "On Killing" references the frequent reluctance in shooting to kill even in close combat situations. This can be compounded when there are multiple other friendly shooters; essentially hoping some one else will make the kill shot. Certainly not saying this is what happened but maybe.

quote:

Gold Dots have been around for a while and are well proven. They have been dubbed 'the flying ashtray' for their large hollow point cavity.

Gold dots are are a totally different bullet then what was dub the flying ash tray that was a plain jane jacket 200gr hollow point 45acp.

I have a couple of boxes of the so called flying ash trays they were made long before gold dots.

Ooops, you are correct. Despite the misnomer I doubt it was the ammo's fault.

There has been great improvements in bullet design over the 30 years.

Thanks to the FBI's poor shooting and tactics in 1986.

There is a vast amount of info on how bullets preform on the net.

A search on you tube most likely will find some one that has tested the bullet you are thinking about using.

I used to do a lot of bullet testing now I just go to you tube and let someone else do the work.

p-dog, I am assuming you are in reference to the FBI's fiasco in Florida. + it was that.

quote:

I am assuming you are in reference to the FBI's fiasco in Florida. + it was that.

Yes I am.

As a LEO instructor I studied that situation thoroughly.

The mistakes the FBI made were glaring.

They suffered from a huge case of we are the FBI.

Either it was poor shooting or if they were landing shots where aimed, or poor training. The killer was very aggressive and motivated possibly under the influence of a drug. The shots should have went to the vitals. There were three dead victims and could have been more if he got to the officers. As for the FBI, they are THE most overrated LE agency in the world. The leadership in the past eight to twelve years has been discussting. That outfit needs a complete redo.

Yes the whole arrest procedures were a sham...as one can expect from the FBI in my opinnion..

the 9mm or 45 with hard ball ammo is pathetic. A light fast hollow point of modern design is what works, and test them yourself before you use them..

quote:

There's a hell of a difference shooting at targets verses people, particularly if their armed.

That is very, very true.

I'm not going to 'armchair quarterback' the French Police as I wasn't there. I'm sure it was a very busy minute for them and they stopped the threat.

Well it seems your score goes to hell in a handbasket when the target is shooting back.

A pistol (in most cases) is a poor substitue to a rifle or shotgun IMO...but is better than a switch blade or baseball bat..

I think the french police is the problem, not the Speer or any other bullets, it borders on stupid that 14 shots didn't kill, as John Wayne would say, "its just a flesh wound times 14..14 shots under ones finger nail should stop a gun fight..It tis just one of those thangs!