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One of Us |
All, What's everyone using for home defense ammo in their shotguns these days? It used to be pretty simple, but now there are some new offerings from Federal, Hornady, et al that are making me rethink things. The Hornady Critical Defense seems to be one of the more recommended options. I'd be interested in the brand, model, and shot size you're using. I'll be exclusively looking for 12ga 2.75" loads. Thanks in advance for the help. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | ||
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Federal LE Flight Control #1 15 pellet buckshot is my choice. I have been unable to find it, so I have on hand the Fed LE Flight Control 8 and 9 pellet 00 Buck. Hands down the best Defensive shotgun ammo on the market. Cold Zero | |||
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I'm not so sure about that. It is currently the best OFFENSIVE shotgun ammo in the market, but home defense......hmmmmmmm, I dunno. At home ranges which can usually be measured in feet, not yards, a 50 foot (17 yds, more or less) shot would be extremely long, most shots would be on the order of 7 or 8 yds or less, sometimes much less. Federal LE Flight Control #1 15 pellet buckshot's claim to fame is the ability to maintain a very tight pattern, most of them being roughly one hole up to about 20 yards. So, for home use, in effect, you would be shooting a slug. There's nothing wrong with that except that you might miss. At home ranges, with a shotgun, if you miss, the uninjured subject might close and shoot or knife you or grapple with the shotgun before you get off a second shot. Of course, he could flee, but then you might as well be using blanks. There also is the problem of penetration with any size buckshot. This would depend on the layout of your home and, especially if you have kids in other bedrooms. This isn't hard and fast, but personally, I like anything from lead #2s to lead #6s for home defense. At very close ranges, it doesn't matter since the shot column will act as a solid, and farther off, I would tend to shoot for the neck/face. Sounds brutal and it is, but I want to kill or incapacitate the threat and if he's blind or dying that suits the hell out of me. If you like buckshot, FOR HOME USE, I think any of the normal loads would be better than Flight Control. At home ranges, you WANT shot dispersion with a shotgun. If you don't want shot dispersion, then use a rifle. JMHO, YMMV. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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#4 standard velocity buck is the least barrier penetrative and still able to penetrate tissue well enough to incapacitate reliably ( I know, a PB, a column of any birdshot will be devastating as well). 556 light to mid weight softs or JHPs penetrate the Least of all shotgun, pistol etc rounds in barriers found in a stick built home..... | |||
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I have my home defense 870 stuffed full of win 2 3/4 in full power 00buck. But then I live I the country and the chance of having to shoot a 4 legged varmint is much better then a 2 legged one. | |||
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Thanks guys. I suppose I should give a bit more information on my particular layout. I'm in a townhouse, people on both sides, no kids, just the Mrs. in here with me. I'm leaning towards a smaller buckshot or something in the #2 or #4 range. Anybody see any issues with using 000 buck or #2? _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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There are a couple of shotguns on the market that I want right now for home defense. They are bull pup designs, with twin 7 round magazines. With one up the pipe, that's 15 rounds. They have selectors to choose magazines so I'm not limited to #1 buck or #4 buck or slugs. I can choose. Add spotlights, lasers, etc. Short, sweet and deadly --- I want one. | |||
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I disagree. This topic is about using the shotgun and shell selection, not the rifle. Besides, in some states, using a carbine is no longer a legal option and as a result the shotgun is enjoying a resurgence in popularity. As for using cheap busckshot and shot dispersion, you are accountable for each pellet you send down range. The more dispersion, the more likely one, or more pellets will get away from you. If a family member were taken hostage you could easily take a hostage taker headshot with the Flight Control, would you want dispersion at that time with cheap buckshot, or #6 ? Think about dispersion of cheap #4 or #6 buckshot and some pellets going over the perps shoulder through the window or plywood of a frame home and into the home next door and killing a child. Cold Zero | |||
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I'll take one that has a good solid reputation for working. Over Kelteks gimmick that doesn't all the time. | |||
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Flight control buck shot is impressive stuff for holding patterns. | |||
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I still am convinced that the handgun is the best all around weapon for close quarters. Long guns are just that, long. Long means leverage, true, it goes both ways, but I am persuaded that I can more easily deflect the muzzle of a long gun than a handgun. Since we are talking about home defense, nothing is perfect, and certainly some calibers/shot ypes are better/worse than others, but the handgun is the go-to gun for general home defense, when I awake in the night and something is going down, I know that my wife is beside me, my daughter and two grands are upstairs, so the AR rifle (not carbine) (I live with neighbors no closer than 300m)is my barricade gun, with the 12 ga pump and #4 buck and 00 buck in reserve ( in the wife's hands) The monitor will tell me most of what I need to know about the perimeter activity and the chimes on the alarm system tell where a breech may be.... Layers of security are needed. As far a the OP, large buck is good if the layout and terrain allow it, small buck is still good on soft targets, and less penetrative on interior walls etc. Bird shot creates massive but shallow wounds, but may not be a stopping round, as each pellet penetrates on its own, unless so close a handgun would be better served anyway. | |||
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I have seen Officers who failed Shotgun Qual with garden variety buckshot and then were mercifully given Flight Control and passed without issue. The product is so good, it turns marginal shooters into proficient shooters. Birdshot gives lousy penetration. Buckshot entering the target in one hole is still less penetration than a slug, at all ranges. Anyone know of any Agency or Dept. that issues Birdshot ? Cold Zero | |||
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IMHO it doesn't make a hill of beans worth of difference what you use. At home self defense ranges anything will disable, probably permanently, any intruder. What police or others use is irrelevant as their mission is completely different. | |||
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That is true. In a previous life, as it were, I used to know a couple of forensic ballistic guys that were expert witnesses. One from a military background and the other from a medical background. Both told me that at very short ranges of under twenty yards the lethality of a shot gun was the same regardless of size of shot. Buckshot or birdshot and that it was only at greater ranges that the size of the shot became relevant. But what was noted was that birdshot in fact at short ranges caused wounds that were more difficult to repair with surgery as it was like trying to reconstruct a dishcloth. From another personal acquaintance my late father had a friend called "Tiger" Chapman. As "Tiger" had indeed shot tigers. In India. As a young boy I asked him what he had used, my mind full of stories of the likes of Jim Corbett. Well tiger used a twelve bore side-by-side (but I don't think that Joe Biden ever met him...) for following up wounded tiger. And the shot size? The reply was "No6 as it holds together remarkably well at short range". British No6 being equivalent to US No7. | |||
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I know of no Dept., Agency or Commercial training school that advocates shooting to disable. The Home Owner using a shotgun in self defense is facing the same threat that the Police do, but they are doing it without the use of a Partner, Back Up, additional equipment and level of training of a Police Officer. The bad guy's body in your home does not know whether he is being shot by Police, or a frightened home owner, the impact of the round and resulting damage is the only effect the body responds too. If someone has the Ballistic Test data that shows birdshot is as effective as buckshot by all means please post it up. Cold Zero | |||
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My thoughts on the subject is that I want to disable any attacker. I want him/her to know that they have been hit and that there are more rounds on the way. I would rather not have to kill someone but if that is what needs to happen then so be it. Being hit with 1-1/4 ounces of lead shot at 1300 fps is enough to stop anyone - at least for long enough to work the action for another shot. At the ranges within my home I expect diversion of the shot charge to be no more than 4 inches from a cylinder bore and less with a full choke. A single hit to the head, neck, or chest will stop any intruder from wanting to stick around for another shot if he/she is able to move at all. At those ranges it won't matter what size shot is being used. At the very least it would be akin to hitting them with a sledge hammer from a safe distance. Even with light body armor a hit like that will take a person out of the fight for a few minutes. Are there faster ways to kill someone, yes, of course. The slug will go completely through a person at that range and through the outside walls as well. Since I am responsible for the round and what it does once it leaves the barrel I choose to use shot instead of slugs or buckshot. I am reasonably sure that I have enough gun for the job. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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Nope Richard Davis the inventor of modern soft armor proved this false many times. Shooting himself with 44mags. He even use to have him self shot with 308 to sell his rifle rated armor. Its more a matter of mind set and determination. | |||
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Glad to see the spirited discussion, guys. I'm well aware that shooting a person at "home" ranges with any kind of shotgun is gonna put them down. Chiefly, I'm concerned with both penetration of heavy clothing but not so much as to go through the wall or window. I'm not totally versed in the penetration characteristics of 00 or 000 buck, so maybe someone could help bring me up to speed with their experiences. If someone breaks into my house wearing body armor, the 12ga will still hammer them long enough for me to grab another stashed weapon of higher penetrating ability... _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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IMHO the handgun is the LEAST effective weapon in close quarters. Plenty of folks have been killed after shooting a criminal with a handgun (even multiple times) and having said criminal killing the shooter. IMHO the shotgun is the ultimate close quarters weapon (as proved in the trenches of WWI). I personally believe the 12 gauge 2 3/4" #1 buckshot load is the the gold standard for home defense. | |||
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It may, or it may not, BUT if they are wearing body armour what it will do is make a more certain chance of a shot to the knee area being a hit than any handgun or rifle. | |||
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A 12 ga. shotgun carries more inertial forces at the muzzle than a 3006. That force is completely expended on the target while the 3006 expends only a small portion of its force while it will continue on its way to penetrate many other things along its path. 1-1/4 oz at 1350 fps provides for 105 Ft Lb/s of inertia. 180gr bullet at 2600 fps provides 66.8 Ft Lb/s of inertia. The 12ga round stops in the person while the 3006 round is only in the person for a period of less than 1/1500 of a second. The 3006 round if placed correctly will take out the heart and a lung which will kill the person in less than 3 minutes but it will not stop that person from shooting back in those 3 minutes. The shotgun will incapacitate the person even if it doesn't kill them. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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Once upon a time, many years ago I was involved in some extensive buckshot tests from standard 18 and 20" Police type "Riot Guns". To answer you questions, in doors and outdoors at conversational distances it really does not make a lot of difference. Personally I prefer not to use No4 Buck, as I believe in more penetration. Out doors at longer Buckshot distances, Single Ought buck actually gave the best combination of penetration and pattern. However fast foward to today, and recent tests have shown that the "Tactical" and Low Recoil 00 buckshot, with usually one less round of shot, gives much better patterns at distance. This is due to the different way in which the buckshot is stacked in the shell, vs the older 00 Buck. Also this lower recoil 00 buckshot has much faster shot time recovery, which is good for up close fast shooting, especially for normal people doing the shooting, and if there are multiple suspects. These low recoil 00 loads still have plenty of penetration. I personally would never choose any size "birdshot" on purpose for personal defense. Also, if you think the people that will be aattacking you will be wearing body armour, do not worry too much. If you know they are wearing body armour shoot for the head. Even if you do not know I can assure you that buckshot hits to the arms and hands will quickly disable most peoples fighting ability. I have three friends that were hit in this manner, durring the same shootout, with 00 Buck and I can attest to its effectiveness. I also recommend you have a quality light mounted on your home defense shotgun. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Buckshot is preferred at longer ranges. But inside a home shot works extremely effectively. When I lived in Alaska I remember a home invasion where the home owner fired 1 round of #8 trap load killing the intruder on the spot. Do not under estimate shot at dry close range such as inside of a home. Buck shot will penetrate more walls inside a home _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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You've got to stop the BG. To do so you have to AIM and hit the target so forget dispersion. You have to STOP the BG so you have to use something that will penetrate clothing and into vital organs. That leaves a 12 gage with buckshot ,#1 buck if you think that's better. Take it seriously the BG may be high on things like drugs etc ,They can be very dangerous. | |||
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Think bad guys don't wear body armor ? I would not want to hit this guy with #8 birdshot. Indianapolis IN Dec 23 2013 A Brinks security guard shot a man who tried to rob him Sunday in a busy Walmart parking lot on the Far Southside. The robber, who has not been identified, was shot several times, police said. Although he was wearing a bulletproof vest, he was injured and in serious condition. The guard was not seriously hurt. The shooting happened outside the Walmart at 7245 S. U.S. 31 about 4:30 p.m. when the guard was hauling a bag of cash from the store to his armored truck, said Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department Officer Christopher Wilburn. The suspect approached the guard, shot pepper spray into his eyes and tried to grab the cash. The guard struggled with the man, and the man reached into his pocket at which time the security officer managed to pull out his gun and shot the suspect, Wilburn said. Dozens of people saw the daylight robbery attempt. As the robber tried to flee, he was tackled by a citizen and an off-duty officer. Altercations and violence is never a good thing on the job but finally glad to see that the security officer was not the one killed or injured and that the suspect was captured and justice may be done. Image Cold Zero | |||
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Personally, with 12 gauge I use #4 buck inside the house and #1 outside the house. With 20 gauge I use #3 buck inside the house. Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do. | |||
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I have tested 20ga buckshot and slugs too. I would not hesitate to use either for protection. In fact the wife and I have carried my 18.5" barreled Safage Stevens Mod 311 double barrel as a road/motel/camp gun many times. We used it for grouse in black bear and Griz country many times. I use only Brenneke slugs for bear protection. Also I killed a deer at about 35 yards or so with a Federal 3" 20ga with No2 buck. The deer was facing me and I was suprised at how deep some of the No2 pellets went into the chest. I have seen several people shot with 12 ga birdshot, with the exception of suicides, ie contact wounds, I have not been impressed. As I stated above I would not use it for home defense, on purpose. I remember one case where the woman shot herself in the chest with 12 bird shot. It did not do the job, so she then shot herself under the chin... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Really like the bulpup, twin mag, models where I can change back and forth. Flechette's are pretty awesome by the way. | |||
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Flechettes are meant to wound and would not be my first choice for inside home protection. They do make some nasty wounds but they weigh considerably less than 1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot. I'll take a sledge hammer over a spear every time. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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I was at a friends house and saw some interesting rounds that he had picked up at a gun show. They are 12 ga rounds that have been shortened to 1.5 or 1.75 inches. They have a substantial charge and shot load that varies from buck shot to mixed loads. I believe that he had a slug in this configuration also. The nice thing was that his standard 870/500 shotgun almost doubled in capacity. He has tested them for cycling and accuracy at range and is satisfied that they are up to the task. I am unaware of a brand name but am considering finding a few boxes for myself. lc | |||
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For room defense I have trap load in the pipe followed by two rounds of #4 then two rounds of 00 buck. | |||
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I like BB's from an 18" cylinder bore barrel. I will sure make a mess of a possum at 10 yards.   Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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For home defene I don't think the load matters much, but my shotgun needs to do double duty against a wide variety of yard and garden varmints up to coyote size. Therefore I load 3" magnum loads of #1 buckshot. | |||
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Just an " FYI ": The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot - Page 1 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm | |||
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I think T Hevishot would be a good Mankiller. Works well on hogs & coyotes out of a helicopter. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Very interesting. #1 has 20% more wounding potential than 00 Buck. Cold Zero | |||
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I've patterned 00 and 1 buckshot. From my porch to the garden 00 leaves some holes in the pattern that could cause a miss on woodchuck sized targes. Not so much with #1. And on woodchucks, cats and porcupines I get DRT results at yard and garden range most times. | |||
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Remington HD (RW12SHDB) with 1 1/4oz. of BB shot. George  | |||
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These things? http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...11-pellets-box-of-20 I wonder how well they feed (or not) in different shotguns. I personally have Hevi-Shot BB loads in a compact shotgun for uninvited visitors, and I miss having a big German Shephed/Akita around too. "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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Most prisons issue #4 buck. That, according to FLETC a few years ago. | |||
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