Simple question. I'm sure we've all heard the deal about not carrying handloads for Self Defense, because if you have to defend yourself, and are drug into court, the opposing council will try and make you look as though you've been waiting for the opportunity to shoot someone. I've also seen Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, say that he has no qualms about carrying handloads for self defense. What say you?
For clarification, I am specifically talking about defense from people, not bears. I doubt seriously if anyone cares if you shoot a bear with handloads.

I'd have no problems in doing so. Yes, some lawyers have tried to argue the matter in civil litigation but I've not heard of it becoming factually relevant as long as the loads in question did not represent a substantial deviation from generally accepted caliber-specific ballistcs.

Personally, if I went to court, I wouldn't want anything about my character coming into question. I'll stick with factory ammo.

I guess my question would be why would you want to? With the selection of premium bullet loads available in most useful calibers its not likely that you can equal or exceed the performance by handloading not to mention reliability issues. As far as civil litigation is concerned, you will have your hands full with any shooting even if you are 110% in the right. Why add to the headaches?

As to the reliability issues, I have had a few, though not many, bad factory rounds, mostly .22 lr. I have not had, to date, any problems with my reloads. I suppose that one could get a bad batch of primers or something, but the factory could get that same bad batch of primers as well. I don't know about everyone, but I handle every round quite a few times throughout the reloading process, and so I have ample opportunity to check and recheck what I'm doing.

Personally, the availability issue is my deciding factor. I do have reloads for my pistol available, and hence in the gun, right now, however, I'd be hard pressed to go out and find some .41 mag factory ammo. Other than buying .22 stuff, the thought of buying factory ammo simply never crosses my mind.

How much is your life worth? I would not carry reloads and I have shot a blue million rounds of them without many issues but its the liability issue will raise its ugly head all things being equal. If they cant discredit the act then they will go after your character in court.

better to be judged by twelve than carried by six

I'd also plan on being the only witness in court.
I think the factory ammo is probably wiser, legally speaking, but this is more of a gray issue, to me at least.

As a famous man once said, "Problem One is saving your life, Problem Two is explaining it to the folks with the steel bracelets. Problem One is more important than Problem Two until its done then Problem Two becomes a bloody bore" Unfortunately its not as simple as saying "He tried to kill me, bad move on his part, he wont do that again. Ok with you guys?" Sad commentary on our society that we have lost our common sense.

I like a 44 mag loaded w/ 240 gr. lead SWC. That's a handload, not "designer ammo."

I'll be damned if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a load I'm going to use to put the screws to a jerk.

He needs to be grateful I'm not shooting at him with the cannon and a load of gravel, nuts/bolts, and nails.

One safe and easy way to go is buy the same factory ammo that your local police carry. Usually Federal, Hydroshok or Speer, Gold Dot. Then you simply used what they use. It would be hard to argue against that.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
One safe and easy way to go is buy the same factory ammo that your local police carry. Usually Federal, Hydoshok or Speer, Gold Dot. Then you simply used what they use. It would be hard to argue against that.

I think that is the best answer yet, as far as the legal questions go. Good one. There are often advantages to playing dumb. "I don't know much about guns so I asked a cop what they use."

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Simple question. I'm sure we've all heard the deal about not carrying handloads for Self Defense, because if you have to defend yourself, and are drug into court, the opposing council will try and make you look as though you've been waiting for the opportunity to shoot someone. I've also seen Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch, say that he has no qualms about carrying handloads for self defense. What say you?
For clarification, I am specifically talking about defense from people, not bears. I doubt seriously if anyone cares if you shoot a bear with handloads.

Depends where and who trained you,I'm retired from le and all of the liability classes for 39 years stressed carrying factory ammo for self defense just like on the job,our sheriffs carry winchester ammo in their 9mms.I have a fellow retired le friend who uses corbon ammo in his carry weapons,I use corbon,magtech,pmp,remington,winchester in my self defense ccw weapons. NO RELOADS they're ok for practice but not for carrying are the statements of SBSO trainers.

If you shoot someone chances are you aren't trying to wound them or I wouldn't be anyways so the last thing I am worried about is using factory ammo the fact that you are packing a gun will make you look like you are looking for trouble to the courts anyways I carry daily and don't want trouble but don't want to be a victim either.

I have been in Law Enforcement for 10 years and would agree with TWL 100%.

I would have no problem using hand loads. that said I carry 165gr golden sabers in my 40's.

In my woods gun a ti 41 mag it is full of 215gr hard cast. If I had to use it defend myself from a two legged varmint so be it.

I think the ammo factory vs hand loads comes from LE being very worried about being sue should something goes wrong.

In some very anti gun areas the DA might bring it up at trial. In The Harold Fish trial in AZ the DA make a big deal about Fish carring a 10mm.

The cops don't decide if your quilty or not sure the can arrest you put you in jail ect but they will use the facts they have on hand at the time. Ammo most likely will not have anything to do with.

Most will not know the differants between a hand load or factory that well not come out untill the lab is done with. Then maybe not even then unless you tell them.

One could have brought the ammo a gun show thinking it was factory.

In the years pass there wasn't a very good selection of selfdefense ammo now all the majors have some of the best out there. Even at a buck around for the best factory stuff it still cheap. If your life depends on it.

If I have handloads in my gun when I need to defend my self Iam not going to think twice a useing them in selfdefense.

Ammo in my carry guns is all factory ammo. Carry ammo in the woods is handloaded hardcast lead. No lawyers there.

This is one of those questions that tends to create far more discussion than relevant answers. With all due respect daniel my friend, your's is a good question but not really a question about ammo.

I have been a precipitant witness, defendant and co-defendant, and expert witness in use-of-force, use-of-deadly force, and wrongful death cases, both criminal and civil, for longer than I can remember.

For private citizens it is not the means with which one defends one's self that constitutes the lawfulness of the action, it is the private person's intent. The intent is the most important issue. The means is then applied to the facts and the degree of threat.

Substitute the word hammer for gun, axe for baseball bat, flashlight for baton, baton for gun, one's fists and feet for any other instrument, big knife for little knife. When the facts are there and the threat is credible, it doesn't matter in the end.

It is not your intent to kill the other person. It is your intent to protect yourself from the imminent threat of great bodily harm or death. If one does so within the law, the manner is not relevant. If the bad guy expires as a result of your otherwise lawful actions, it does'nt matter.

Sophisticated venues with experienced bar practitioners understand this. Sure, one is likely to be asked about the ammo of choice, but again, it is factually irrelevant.

In those cases where there is clear evidence to suggest the use of deadly force is lawful, the type of ammo used will not be a factor.

This discussion can and will go on and on, and on. I'd not worry about it.

I just load up with Gold Dots and don't worry about it.

jetdrvr good choice. As would be any of the newer sefldefense loads.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
One safe and easy way to go is buy the same factory ammo that your local police carry. Usually Federal, Hydoshok or Speer, Gold Dot. Then you simply used what they use. It would be hard to argue against that.

I think that is the best answer yet, as far as the legal questions go. Good one. There are often advantages to playing dumb. "I don't know much about guns so I asked a cop what they use."

"You have the right to remain silent.

If you should chose not to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.

You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, the court will appoint an attorney for you."

You don't want to "play dumb." You want to play smart --

"I'm not answering any questions without advice of counsel."

Then the questioning STOPS.

If the police ask if you want to call your wife and tell her you won't be home for dinner, you tell them: "I'm not making any statements without advice of counsel."

You'd be amazed what a prosecuting attorney can twist out of a simple statement like, "Let me call my wife."

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
"I'm not answering any questions without advice of counsel."

Then the questioning STOPS.

If the police ask if you want to call your wife and tell her you won't be home for dinner, you tell them: "I'm not making any statements without advice of counsel."

You'd be amazed what a prosecuting attorney can twist out of a simple statement like, "Let me call my wife."

I have to agree. You will not win, when you speak without counsel present. The fact that you seem unwilling to cooperate with police will set off an alert to most cops. If they want to create a case against you, they'll use everything they can. I'm not gonna take a cup of water if he offered it. And I'm damn sure not gonna use reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
"I'm not answering any questions without advice of counsel."

Then the questioning STOPS.

If the police ask if you want to call your wife and tell her you won't be home for dinner, you tell them: "I'm not making any statements without advice of counsel."

You'd be amazed what a prosecuting attorney can twist out of a simple statement like, "Let me call my wife."

I have to agree. You will not win, when you speak without counsel present. The fact that you seem unwilling to cooperate with police will set off an alert to most cops. If they want to create a case against you, they'll use everything they can. I'm not gonna take a cup of water if he offered it. And I'm damn sure not gonna use reloads.

"Lawyering up" is not considered being "uncooperative." It's considered your lawful right to counsel.

quote:

If you cannot afford an attorney, the court will appoint an attorney for you."

THIS is where you run into problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
"I'm not answering any questions without advice of counsel."

Then the questioning STOPS.

If the police ask if you want to call your wife and tell her you won't be home for dinner, you tell them: "I'm not making any statements without advice of counsel."

You'd be amazed what a prosecuting attorney can twist out of a simple statement like, "Let me call my wife."

I have to agree. You will not win, when you speak without counsel present. The fact that you seem unwilling to cooperate with police will set off an alert to most cops. If they want to create a case against you, they'll use everything they can. I'm not gonna take a cup of water if he offered it. And I'm damn sure not gonna use reloads.

"Lawyering up" is not considered being "uncooperative." It's considered your lawful right to counsel.

You are right. Lawyering up is being uncooperative to the cop that wants answers NOW. Which pisses some off. Cause now they are not in control. You are. And that can be bad for you if they get ANY answers out of you later. Some may take that shit personal.

quote:

"I'm not answering any questions without advice of counsel."

Then the questioning STOPS.

Nope. Not with the latest rulings. It just means what it says, you do not have to answer the questions, they can and will still ask them.

Well no one seems to have mentioned what to me is the most obvious reason why one would use reloads, namely to get the gun to shot to point of aim! Most carry guns do not have fully adjustable sights. The usual adjustment is windage only. I will not carry a gun that I do not have confidence in ie. it shoots where I intend it to go. This means if the elevation is off, then I adjust the bullet weight. This works well for both 40 S&W and 45 ACP.
Peter.

Factory loads also come in different bullet weights. If I ever had to go to court over a shooting incident, a hundred dollars or so spent on factory ammo to avoid muddying the waters would be the least of my concerns.

And you're more likely to have an encounter up close and personal.

Just me, but I doubt Clint has ever pointed a firearm at somebody with the intent to do them physical harm. Speaking from experience (NOT bragging) I have shot enough people in the military, and on a PD in a large city and been in on enough more to know NOT to use homebrew ammunition. Massad Ayoob talks about it at length, and he has been called as an "Expert Witness" at enough criminal and civil trials that I take his word for it. Think for a minute, give me one good reason to carry your own and fly in the face of the factory experts to save a twenty dollar bill once a year. If it's what the cops buy, you are in good company.
Roll your own, you're on your own.

Rich

Swampshooter,

actually, in today's litigious society it might be your major concern. The other side's attorney would paint you as a vicious pervert who wasn't satisfied with safe, effective factory loads. "You! wanted to blow my poor client's arms and legs off!". A grand jury isn't going to want to hear your blather about saving a couple dollars or working to find a load that prints to point of aim on your handgun. You are the mad scientist working in the lab to build Frankenstein's Monster equivalent killer loads.
I hope you never have to explain your logic to a jury that already knows you maimed some poor disadvantaged person when you could have turned and walked away.

Guaranteed; you won't like the view hanging from a cross in a courtroom.

Rich
factory

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Just me, but I doubt Clint has ever pointed a firearm at somebody with the intent to do them physical harm. Speaking from experience (NOT bragging) I have shot enough people in the military, and on a PD in a large city and been in on enough more to know NOT to use homebrew ammunition. Massad Ayoob talks about it at length, and he has been called as an "Expert Witness" at enough criminal and civil trials that I take his word for it. Think for a minute, give me one good reason to carry your own and fly in the face of the factory experts to save a twenty dollar bill once a year. If it's what the cops buy, you are in good company.
Roll your own, you're on your own.

Rich

i dont reload to save money mine loads group tighter than any factory loads i have bought . true it takes time to get them there but lots of us here dont reload to save 20.00 bucks

A man's chest area is about 16" wide by 18" high.
How much difference do your loads make on an IPSC major/minor target at ten yards. Enough to risk you and your families future? Lose everything, get a felony conviction and about twenty years in prison...? Are you ready to bet your life on it in court?

None of you master reloaders are willing to face facts and give me a real answer. Quit dancing around and say I'' take my chances in court if I ever shoot anybody with handloads instead of factory. There are some active attorneys here, ask one.

Rich

out of all the court cases i have heard in the news i have never heard an issue about the bullet someone used . i have heard of people having to prove it was self defense and have heard of people also using stolen weapons and having to fight that. that being said i am no expert just giving my opinion could be totally wrong but as i hope to never find out the hard way i will still carry my loads . plus current ammo stock in the stores and online makes it very hard to get factory ammo . so should we carry empty guns or nothing at all ? that would seem to risk our families lives and losing everything that matters also. which would be worse than a prison sentence .

Idaho, I do not want to get into a pissing contest with you, and I don't know why you are so upset about this issue. It is OUR choice after all, and you can always say :"I told you so!". I am with Rick on this issue. Let me explain: if my carry gun does not group within the black on a 25 yard target then I don't carry it. That is MY standard, yours may be different. The issue of reloads and liability was raised by Masad Ayoob many years ago. He is a legend in his own mind. Previous posts on this topic have shown NOT A SINGLE DOCUMENTED issue where reloads have been raised in a liability case. So, while common sense might dictate not using them (just in case) it is not illogical to use them if they are more accurate.
Peter.

If you are seriously concerned about your legal defense in a shooting seems like posting on this topic maybe considered as premeditaded if they pulled these post they could argue that you took the time to plan the shooting . not to say i agree with this just saying it could be used against you if they are desparate enough to use the type of bullet you use against you i bet they will investigate everything else you do .

I've seen some wild handloads touted as good defensive loads.
1) The old .38 hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards.
1a) #1 Loaded with an extremely hot powder charge
1b) #1 Loaded with powder and a primer in the "hollow" to act as explosive projectile
1c) #1 Loaded with "stuff" in the hollow, ie wax, birdshot, mercury.

2) Crap stuffed in snake shot capsules and billed as defensive ammo.

3) Cup and core hollow point loads with the hollow drilled out and stuffed with psuedo explosive loadings or mercury or other crap

Is there any wonder that most firearms trainers called for "Factory" ammo in the past? We now have a bunch of great factory loads available and recently I haven't run into anyone carrying what our firearms instructor in the Harris County Sheriff's Academy 25 years ago called "Werewolf killing loads".

I only carry factory ammo, but as long as your handloads were something normal I don't believe they would affect a good shooting. If you get involved in an "iffy" shooting the magnifying glass comes out and everything becomes a factor.

Hmmm ... Rick R and I are friends, and I never thought to ask this question of him. His answer is well thought out (as always).

Have always used factory ammo in my carry guns anyway. Exactly for the reason he gives in his last sentence. In a bad situation, one might have a very, very short time to make a life changing decision ... no point in complicating the inevitable aftermath.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
I've seen some wild handloads touted as good defensive loads.
1) The old .38 hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards.
1a) #1 Loaded with an extremely hot powder charge
1b) #1 Loaded with powder and a primer in the "hollow" to act as explosive projectile
1c) #1 Loaded with "stuff" in the hollow, ie wax, birdshot, mercury.

2) Crap stuffed in snake shot capsules and billed as defensive ammo.

3) Cup and core hollow point loads with the hollow drilled out and stuffed with psuedo explosive loadings or mercury or other crap

Is there any wonder that most firearms trainers called for "Factory" ammo in the past? We now have a bunch of great factory loads available and recently I haven't run into anyone carrying what our firearms instructor in the Harris County Sheriff's Academy 25 years ago called "Werewolf killing loads".

I only carry factory ammo, but as long as your handloads were something normal I don't believe they would affect a good shooting. If you get involved in an "iffy" shooting the magnifying glass comes out and everything becomes a factor.

i would not carry the example loads hell i would be scared to shoot them.

I want to use handloads 'cause, I had a box of Federal Premium 470 Nitro Express (yea, I know rifle not pistol), these cost 250 dollars a BOX [20]. The second round did not have a flash hole. If I would have been being charged by a elephant, I would have been killed. With handloads, I can be assured of the thing going bang when I pull the trigger.

With factory loads, you are taking the risk of the round not going off, in a case of self defence, you are dead. Sorry the quality control wasn't up to snuff, we will do better in the future.

how do you know that pimple faced kid that sold you the primers at walmart, didnt spill em on the floor and had wd 40 on his fingers when he put them back in the box, before you bought them, ive seen a lot more bad handloads than ive seen bad factory, and the guys who loaded them were meticulus experts on handloading. nice big buck "click" the deer runs away,(didnt shoot back)
you probably wouldnt get sued for using handloads for self defence, unless you dream up some weird load which in itself proves youre wierd