I honestly find these examples more important than wondering about what caliber gun in what rig, or how many guns I can legally carry. I would be interested in your take on this example from Glock Talk:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1252999

My first reaction was sympathetic, but then I got to thinking... Not sure what the alternative to pulling would be. Any suggestions?
Peter.

We're only hearing one side of the story so going with what we know...

You shoot the finger at someone you better be able to back it up AND not with lethal force when confronted about it. What a pussy this guy is. If you can't back up your mouth/finger don't run it.

The guy that followed him to the store needs to chill out and grow up. This day and age you can't be wanting to fight people over gestures or words.

In this age of texting did the wuss at the light have his face buried in his phone and isn't telling us that part. After about 3 seconds behind someone at a green light I will toot my horn if I see they are looking down at their phone.

Bottom line you don't know how far someone is going to take something so don't be flicking people off and don't be following someone into a store to teach them manners!

Perry

The "alternative" is to not flip off anyone in the first place!

Maybe this guys his CCP revoked for starting such stupidity.

quote:

Originally posted by RVL III:
The "alternative" is to not flip off anyone in the first place!

Maybe this guys his CCP revoked for starting such stupidity.

+1

Can't say I disagree with any of the above. A concealed weapon does require a greater degree of rationality on the part of the carrier.
Peter.

There's like 300+ posts on that thread, apparently AR isn't the only forum that can make a mountain topic out of a molehill post.

If he's being honest that a guy twice his size followed him into a business and tried to assault him he might get away with displaying the weapon in some jurisdictions and in others they might have both gotten matching bracelets and a ride in the back of a cruiser...

If your a real man you know the correct answer to the questions here. If you are trying to learn the answers they are, an armed society is a polite society, and don't bite of more than you can chew.
The idiot deserved to get his ass kicked for flying the bird and not being able to back it up. Yes, there was an idiot in the second car too. Both of these panty wastes bit off more than they could chew. Bird flyer should know how to be polite, in some places he provoked the attack. When he couldn't back it up he pulled his gun.

I'm not saying to get your ass kicked before pulling in defense, I'm saying don't act like a douch bag becaue you are carrying.

While it might piss anyone off, being "flipped off" is not justifiable provocation to physically attack someone, the same, IMO, as having a horn blown at you is not a valid reason to flip someone off. Personally, I think both parties were wrong, but you see who got hauled off to jail, the guy who initiated the physical confrontation.

They're both idiots but words or gestures can't do any bodily harm. If someone follows me into a store (or anywhere) and tries to attack me, whatever I have gestured or said to him, he is in imminent danger of being dead if he doesn't disengage immediately.

Gato, I think that was my problem. Is giving someone the finger a just cause for physical assault? I don't think so. The guy followed him into the store with what intention? To discuss the situation? Similarly a punch to the jaw can seriously disable someone and I would certainly think that if the assailant was bigger then me, that I was in danger of grievous bodily harm, and, in Florida, would be justified in drawing my concealed weapon.
Having said all that, whether giving the finger is provocation or not, it should not have been done.
Peter.

You're legally obligated in most states to "defuse the confrontation." First means to that end is not to confront in the first place.

It's not hard if you're not an inveterate asshole.

Just my opinion, but the guy who flipped the bird is an idiot. Mind you, not as big of an idiot as the guy who followed him and took a swing at him, but in this day and age, you have to realize that anyone you insult might be just stupid enough to take things to the next level of confrontation. Why anyone carrying a self defense weapon would do ANYTHING to provoke someone is beyond my comprehension.

Common sense, a cool demeanor and awareness of one's surroundings should always be one's first line of defense, IMO. After that, if a dangerous situation cannot be avoided, only then should a firearm become involved.

Flipping anyone the bird is a provocative act, and nobody who is carrying should ever do anything of the sort. If the rockets scientist who was the subject of this thread had just kept his cool and ignored the moron who followed him, chances are he'd have had nothing to write about.

A little late to the party here but my take on the situation-

In my opinion, this is what Thomas Jefferson meant when he said "An armed society is a polite society". If you are carrying, then guess what- you need to suffer fools. If you'd rather flip someone off, then leave your gun at home.Once you take on the responsibility of actually carrying a gun then you need to go out of your way to be polite to others that may not necessarily get that accommodation from you if you were to get the urge to give them encouragement to work on improving their manners.

quote:

Originally posted by RVL III:
The "alternative" is to not flip off anyone in the first place!

AMEN. Keep KooL

I had a similar circumstance. A coworker flipped off a driver just prior to turning down the road to our office. He pulled in and the guy followed him in and stopped behind his vehicle blocking him in. A shouting match ensued and the unknown driver got out and charged my coworker. I had been just inside the door of our office to this point but when he took a swing at my coworker I shouted for him to knock it off. He took a couple more swings at my coworker (who is a scrawny little guy) so I side stepped into his view about 20 yards from the altercation and repeated my shout to knock it off. Only this time I cleared my gun for action placing my strong hand on the grips. In this state it's against the law to "brandish" the weapon so unless you're going to point it at the person you don't pull it and I figured as it was in a ready to fire condition 20 yards was enough time to draw and fire if I had to. At that point he returned to his vehicle and left shouting that if it hadn't been for his buddy he'd have kicked my coworkers ass as he tore off out of the parking lot. I will say that if he'd have taken a single step in my direction I would have pulled the firearm and let him see the gaping .45 caliber barrel but you have to be ever mindful of how it will appear if it ends up in court.

Skipper, I think that therein lies the problem. You have taken the first step that can only lead to one thing, you pulling the gun if he steps towards you. What else can you do? You have escalated the situation by putting your hand on the gun. Once done you cannot take it away, and the implied threat is that if he continues you WILL pull the gun! If he continues, you will have to shoot him. Warning shots are just as bad at this point.
Peter.

So.....he was protecting a fellow worker against possible serious injury. In Texas, he could have pulled the gun without problems. As was, he did nothing but tell the guy to stop while keeping his gun holstered and it worked. If the guy chose to committ suicide that would be unfortunate, but his fault. What would you have him do, call 911 while his coworker is beaten to a pulp?

If you're not willing to use a firearm, concealed or otherwise to protect life, what would you use one for?

My putting my hand on the gun was me saying "I'm willing to go to the next level." If he had stepped towards me and I pulled the gun one more step and I would have pulled the trigger, not on a warning shot, I'd have put one in his chest and with as much as I practice it probably would be in his heart. I don't carry a firearm to be cool. It's a tool with one purpose, to provide deadly force when needed. Part of the requirments for getting your carry permit in Tennessee is a class that goes over in detail when it's legal to use deadly force. In this particular instance as the assailant was about 230lbs attacking a guy weighing 130lbs I would have been within the law if I had simply pulled the gun and shot him. Deadly force is legal when you have a reasonable expectation of the assailant committing severe injury to you or a third party.(at least in TN) Equally I could have pulled the gun and pointed it at him but I have given some consideration to this long before I ever started carrying a gun and came to the conclusion that if I have to pull the gun it's much more likely that I will have to pull the trigger. If I pull the trigger odds are better than even that the guy I'm pointing the gun at is going to die. So by issueing the order while letting them know I have a gun without pulling it, it gives them an oppurtunity to deescalate the situation (short of stopping breathing). I carried a .45 while in the Navy at the ripe old age of 18 so I've had more than half my life to think about what to do in a dangerous situation while armed and this situation played out perfectly on the nonlethal side. There are situations when I would feel no compunction about pulling my gun and firing while never saying a word, but this time I figured the odds were good he would back down.

Gato, if you read the title of MY thread it says "Another example I need your views on". In other words, unlike you, I don't have all the answers. I am still thinking this one through. I am having a hard time justifying shooting a guy 20 yards away! But, hey, life is cheap and he is obviously deserving of death, right?
I agree with Skipper that by indicating that he has a firearm it demonstrates that any further actions on the part of the agressor may well have consequences that he did not anticipate, so, in that sense, it can deescalate the situation.
Peter.

A warning shot is not necesary and is a waste of ammo. Where do you put it? In the air? Bullet has to land somewhere. In the ground? Concrete ricochets. I could see a prosecuter calling it unlawful discharge. For localities that prohibit the discharge of firearms most exclude self defense but a "warning shot" may not be defensive.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Gato, if you read the title of MY thread it says "Another example I need your views on". In other words, unlike you, I don't have all the answers. I am still thinking this one through. I am having a hard time justifying shooting a guy 20 yards away! But, hey, life is cheap and he is obviously deserving of death, right?
I agree with Skipper that by indicating that he has a firearm it demonstrates that any further actions on the part of the agressor may well have consequences that he did not anticipate, so, in that sense, it can deescalate the situation.
Peter.

Well, let me give you a possible life saving hint, you need to decide what the answers are, and what your actions will be in various situations, BEFORE you carry (just like Skipper explained in his follow up post), because if you start thinking too long when you've got or should have a gun in your hand someone will either kill you or shove it up your ass, metaphorically speaking, and that's a fact.

BTW my answer was giving you my views. Just because they disagree with your angst ridden, touchy-feely views does not make them any less valid.

quote:

I agree with Skipper that by indicating that he has a firearm it demonstrates that any further actions on the part of the agressor may well have consequences that he did not anticipate, so, in that sense, it can deescalate the situation.
Peter.

NOW, apparently after lengthy analysis, you've decided that you agree with Skipper's actions, which is EXACTLY what I said that you seemed to find so offensive. Geesh.