FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
Loose Rounds ^ | 9/21/2014 | Duncan



Below is a very interesting read from the FBI Training Division, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA. from a few months ago. This was a PDF file that was sent to me by a coworker.

I want to emphasis this is not mine and I did not create it/the content. I simply copied the text and placed it in this format, here on Loose Rounds, so it was easier to see. It is an executive summary of justification for law enforcement agencies on 9mm for duty carry. If you have followed us here, you know I have been talking about numerous agencies switching back to 9mm over the last few years, as well as the FBI testing for their switch.

Great strides in bullet technology have been made in the past decade and 9mm is on the top of its game. With a select few rounds in 9mm, that have been tested for duty carry, 9mm is fast becoming one of the best options for duty carry.

“May 6, 2014

FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

• Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

• Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

• Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

• In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

• Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

• The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

• LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

• Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

• 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

• 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

• The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

• There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

• Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization.

Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.”

Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.

Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.

One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option

This from the same FBI who decided against the 9mm Luger cartridge for its agents years ago. Blah, blah, blah. It is about hitting the target. 'You can't miss fast enough'.

Well shootshellz, please tell us which of the FBI statements in the original post you disagree with!
Blah Blah Blah!
peter.

Well, if you can't hit the target, it does not matter what caliber the gun is! They can carry a 9mm if the want.... thank goodness the rest f us can pick what we want to carry.

Come on pistol shooters tell us how the real world works . The chuck I hit 4 times that never moved and never went down[45 acp ].The squirrel that was hit on a branch and went BACKWARDS the length of the branch. Oh sure all myths !

quote:

9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

And these same sort of projectiles are somehow NOT available in .40 or 45 loadings?

Enfield , Please don't contradict the FBI ,they know everything ! Years back , a cop here had to shoot to save his partner's life. He drew, fired two rounds and holstered his revolver. ??? The cop had been to the FBI school where at that time the training was just to draw, fire two rounds and hoster ! He did exactly that in the real world , his partner was very lucky. He wrote a nasty letter to the FBI.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Enfield , Please don't contradict the FBI ,they know everything ! Years back , a cop here had to shoot to save his partner's life. He drew, fired two rounds and holstered his revolver. ??? The cop had been to the FBI school where at that time the training was just to draw, fire two rounds and hoster ! He did exactly that in the real world , his partner was very lucky. He wrote a nasty letter to the FBI.

Training was changed a bit from back then.

Yes it has .But the Miami shootout is someting that they never admitted mistakes to. But the event got many people to do some serious thinking. It still remains to educate the PDs to understand that proper gun training is more important than PR.One bad event can wipe out a years worth of community relations.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

And these same sort of projectiles are somehow NOT available in .40 or 45 loadings?

I see these test and I have ran my own. The test that I put the most faith in is in the game fields. I have shot a lot of game with a handgun, with the proper load I have never seen the 9mm equal the 45. Never. IMHO law enforcement doesn't always choose the best ammo. Ammo needs to work correctly under a wide range of parameters.

No denying the magazine capacity advantage of the 9.

I have shot a lot of game with a handgun, with the proper load I have never seen the 9mm equal the 45. Never. IMHO law enforcement doesn't always choose the best ammo. Ammo needs to work correctly under a wide range of parameters.

No denying the magazine capacity advantage of the 9.[/QUOTE]

I hold a similar opinion. Having witnessed many rifle bullet impacts on large game animals, I have never seen any wound that even remotely resembled ballistic gelatin.

As has been mentioned, under a stressful defensive situation, what firearm & caliber are you best able to incapacitate a moving, threatening person? The obvious answer is it depends on several things but, mostly your level of training.

quote:

Originally posted by Ammoloader:

quote:

I have shot a lot of game with a handgun, with the proper load I have never seen the 9mm equal the 45. Never. IMHO law enforcement doesn't always choose the best ammo. Ammo needs to work correctly under a wide range of parameters.

No denying the magazine capacity advantage of the 9.

I hold a similar opinion. Having witnessed many rifle bullet impacts on large game animals, I have never seen any wound that even remotely resembled ballistic gelatin.

As has been mentioned, under a stressful defensive situation, what firearm & caliber are you best able to incapacitate a moving, threatening person? The obvious answer is it depends on several things but, mostly your level of training.

Considering the stupidity of some states laws a civilian is limited to a 10 shot magazine, 11 shots total.

Would you prefer to have 11 total shots (not counting reloading) from a 9mm, a 40 S&W, or a 45 ACP?

An old adage is as true today as it was yesterday, "A 9mm may expand to .45 caliber but a .45 will never get smaller."

And yes, the same bullets that make the 9mm "so good" are avail in both .40 and .45 caliber which enhances the performance of the larger calibers as well.

I saw a hunting show the other day where they tested the .22 LR, the .380 ACP, the 9mm Parabellum, the .40 S&W, the .45 ACP (from handguns), and the .223 Remington (from an AR 15). All rounds penetrated through three interior walls (3rd with exterior siding) though the .233 did fragment through the 3rd wall. So which is potentials more deadly? Even children can accurate fire a .22 LR handgun with even the biggest woos around can accurately shoot most .380 ACP handguns; unfortunately a .22 LR or a .380 ACP won't get you your CCW permit.

Use what you want. I recommend you use as large a caliber cartridge as you can accurately shoot.

What they fail to reconsider is ricochet or penetration at other than 90 degree angles on metal or glass which was a consideration on switching to 40 for general enforcement agents and 45 acp for swat agents, in this case bigger is better however the bigger theme increases carrying weigh and limits capacity...a trade off is at hand

Raamw;

Are you stating that 9mm has a greater tendency to ricochet at angle than other (larger) calibers? Citation?

If you are a piss poor shooter, you can miss a lot more between fumbled reloads with a 9mm. You could also get lucky and hit a perp.

If you have target panic, caliber does not matter, you will be just as useless right up to the time your adversary punches your ticket.

If, however, you train and practice until you are an asset not a liability in a shooting incident, shoot the biggest caliber you are comfortable (and accurate) with.

And, if you are the FBI, and you compromise your hiring to appear to be politically correct, and include people who should never be allowed to touch firearms, like the average woman and smaller framed minorities; convert to paintball guns. That away, the authorities who investigate your murder can ID suspects based on the ball color you choose.

Whoever you are, you have to want to be an accurate shooter, and shoot center mass every shot until the perp goes down and stays down.

I was a 45acp man for decades. About ten years ago I switched to a Glock and the 40 S&W. Happy with that decision...

Yes, lighter bullets have poor penetration at angle on hard services than heavier/faster bullets. As a retired federal agents extensive training and research was done . The original treasury load was designed for penetration on typical clothing human type tissue with the 12 to 18" penetration, poor ricochet tendency on glass and metal meaning bullet would fragment quickly reducing the chance of unintended injuries. This lead to don't shoot at moving vehicles because it would not penetrated. The "T" load at the time was a +p 38 special 110 JHP and was certified for use on aircraft during the early Air marshal service in the 70's
The long story is when hijacking started the treasury had responsbibility for air marshalling. They did their research based on the above criteria and went to winchester western and told them to come up with a loading in 38special.

WW did and told them wasn't possible since the pressure needed exceeded the specifications of the 38spl and could only produce them in 357mag

Treasury decided they could not or would not change over to 357 mag revolvers so they gave WW a disclaimer for any liability for using that recipe in a 38 spl gun. WW agreed and walla the treasury load, I still have the boxes that these loads came in with the disclaimer printed on them, actually these where designated as 38 spl +P+

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
Raamw; [URL= ] [/URL] [URL= ][img]http:

Are you stating that 9mm has a greater tendency to ricochet at angle than other (larger) calibers? Citation?