griz78's What would you do? thread reminded me of one I read on another forum a few years ago.
I know this type of thread is dependent on a lot of factors like the laws where you live, your home conditions, your state of training and sometimes you may just feel like shooting someone.

The scenario:

You live in a normally safe and secure area, but recently there have been some home invasion type robberies. You and your spouse are getting ready to go out for the evening. You're putting the finishing touches on your wardrobe by changing out the ammo in your carry weapon of choice while your spouse is upstairs in your home taking a shower with Vivaldi playing on the bathroom stereo.

Just as you replace your extra magazines and reholster with a freshly charged weapon the front door bursts inward and two men charge in. One immediatley charges up the stairs toward the bedroom / bathroom area. The second proceeds through the downstairs area where you get the drop on him and challenge with "drop the weapon" and his AK-47 clatters to the floor.

Now the problem, you have BG1 at gun point but not secure. BG2 is upstairs and your spouse has no idea what's going down. What do you do?
1. Order BG1 to flee for his life and trust him to stay gone.
2. Search/tie/handcuff BG1.
3. Figure he's bought and paid for because you need to rescue your loved one and give him one through the brain housing unit.
4. Do something that no one thought of in the forum I read this in the first time.

I don't know the answer but if it makes you think, then my job here is done
If the astute members of the forum come up with a workable solution then I owe them a beer

Probably #3 would be the best course of action. It would take too much time to search and tie him up. Meanwhile your wife is in great danger. Good question, got me thinking.

Rick:

Respectfully, it's impossible to give a reasonable and therefore credible answer to a flat, one dimensional Internet post. To do so requires one to make assumptions, add/subtract info, and otherwise make changes to the original post.

A possible answer is to dump the guy running up the stairs first, and then the guy with the AK----without ordering him to drop the gun, btw. It's your house and they've just kicked in your door. Or, if unable to get the guy on the stairs first, dump the guy with the AK and then engage the guy going up the stairs. But that's too easy to say, because the post does not give me enough info.

Survival, in my opinion, begins with absolute situational awareness, requiring all one's senses. So, without other info, it's very difficult to offer a considered answer. I'd need to exercise more of my senses, make judgements about distances/angles/speed of target, etc. Lot's of things to consider here. My real life response would be based on having as COMPLETE a picture of the threat as possible, using all my senses.


Best......Tom

Tom,
It's more of a moral than tactical problem. You can change the part where you challenge BG1 to "his dumb ass tripped over your ottoman while he was trying to operate the oh so ergonomic selector on the AK-47 and he lost his gun"

The crux of the question is that you are in a position where you have to do something to save your spouse. For most non LEOs securing BG1 is impractical. Do you trust the now apparently helpless person to leave or make him into a has-been threat?

Are you allowed to shoot BG1 just a little bit?

Rick,
The retired LAPD is the experienced voice here. I started to think there was something wrong with the scenario even before reading Tom's post.

In my nieve, unexperienced (thanks be to God) mind I reasoned:
1. In my house.
2. With a gun.
3. Shoot...both of them.

What little I've seen of civilian training, "Drop the gun." is something reserved for a trained law enforcement officer to utter, not a private citizen protecting his home.

I do appreciate the brain teazer though. However, I feel like shooting a lot of things, but when you "just feel like shooting someone" things are getting out of control.

If you're downstairs, with a gun, why would a bad-guy run upstairs? They have two on one, more firepower than you, and all sorts of tactical advantage. Running upstairs gives all that away.

No matter how stupid they are, it's doubtful that one of them is going to move around the house while both of them are being confronted by you.

By running upstairs he entirely disregards a tactical threat that needs to be taken care of. He's turning his back on someone who's likely to come looking for him.

The whole scenario reads like a really implausible TV plot.

What the hell is the deal with Vivaldi?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
The scenario:
.....
Just as you replace your extra magazines and reholster with a freshly charged weapon the front door bursts inward and two men charge in. One immediatley charges up the stairs toward the bedroom / bathroom area. The second proceeds through the downstairs area where you get the drop on him and challenge with "drop the weapon" and his AK-47 clatters to the floor.
.....
If the astute members of the forum come up with a workable solution then I owe them a beer

Simple - Shoot BG2 first

PS: Make mine a Bud light!

Hey, let's do this again...I happen to be a big fan of Vivaldi!

#3 sure comes to mind first.

I wish there was a fast way to get the power off to the radio. I could then fire a couple shots into the couch or bed to warn her. Then she could get to her pistol kept between the bathroom towels.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Are you allowed to shoot BG1 just a little bit?

Only if you've trained with the New Jersey boys and mastered the art of kneecap shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:
#3 sure comes to mind first.

I wish there was a fast way to get the power off to the radio. I could then fire a couple shots into the couch or bed to warn her. Then she could get to her pistol kept between the bathroom towels.

Now you're thinking.

I would never say "drop the gun" to a gun toting thug in my house with an AK. He'd get a double tap right off the bat. So I wouldn't be faced with this "problem."

How big is your wife? Is she well insured? I only ask, because if she is grossly fat then I'll get an extra few seconds of shock from BG2. I drop BG1 immediately. The shot warns my wife, who opens the shower curtain just in time to give BG2 a peep show he'll never be able to unsee. I arrive behind him before he regains his composure, and send him to meet BG1. I guess it would work if your wife was smokin' hot, but it's more fun if she's a whale. I once again shoot the dog who didn't take at least one of them out before they entered. Even better, what if the wife is a midget?

Off topic, but I sure see a lot of Texans on here, any 10% ers in the lot of ya?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I would never say "drop the gun" to a gun toting thug in my house with an AK. He'd get a double tap right off the bat. So I wouldn't be faced with this "problem."

That's right. You're not going to find any jurisdiction in the USA where I jury will have "issues" with your shooting an armed intruder without any warning whatever.

-- OK, maybe Mass. NYC, Chicago, California, and Wash. DC. But those places aren't really "American."

The moral question was asked and answered a long time ago. If one doesn't yet have the right answer in his mind, I believe he is behind the curve and unable to properly protect himself and his family. I know men who've come to that conclusion. They were honest enough to ultimately put down their gun and walk away from the business. The same applies to non-professionals as well.

I'm looking at this solely as a tactical exercise. There is still not enough info upon which to make "the best" tactical decision. But from what's given, I would not let the guy going up the stairs attain high ground AND get between me and my wife. If it can be done, he goes first.

Now, if this were a classroom exercise on the "moral" use of deadly force, my answer would be two fold. First, "morality" was needlessly introduced into this scenario by the homeowner's tactical decisions. He screwed himself. Not a good place to be. Secondly, the "moral" use of deadly force has already been decided by the legislature.

When one decides to carry a gun for personal defense or the defense of others, one has the absolute responsibility to understand the relationship that exists among the law, good tactics, and morality. The law and good tactics come first. The "morality" of the act is implicit and has the backing of the laws that provide for the use of deadly force.

I'm certainly not here to argue. As others have said, your mileage may vary.

Now, if it was my first wife, who is a California family law attorney, I'd simply walk out and enjoy a nice dinner.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
The moral question was asked and answered a long time ago. If one doesn't yet have the right answer in his mind, I believe he is behind the curve and unable to properly protect himself and his family. I know men who've come to that conclusion. They were honest enough to ultimately put down their gun and walk away from the business. The same applies to non-professionals as well.

-Quote clipped for brevity-

Now, if it was my first wife, who is a California family law attorney, I'd simply walk out and enjoy a nice dinner.

We had a probationary officer quit for just that reason last year and another one who finally got his mind in the right place after a bit of soul searching. That's the only reason I posted this scenario.

If this had happened with my first wife I'd have probably given the AK back to BG1 and told him his buddy upstairs was in deep doo doo and needed backup.

I'm off to Africa for ten days, you all be safe out there.

quote:

Now, if it was my first wife, who is a California family law attorney, I'd simply walk out and enjoy a nice dinner.

Nice guy, and WTF is with Vivaldi?

Daniel,
Perhaps a dumb question, but what's a 10% er?

Walton and Johnson (based out of Houston) Radio listener. Only 10% of the population "Get it". The rest wander. If you don't know about them, I suggest listening for a week or so.

http://www.waltonandjohnson.com/main/

Daniel, I'll do it.

I'm dumbfounded by the people raising a "moral question". Ain't no moral question here. Armed thugs threatening my family in my house? My moral imperative is to end that threat, quickly and with extreme prejudice.