It's an important skill to be developed at most training programs. It is an essential part of the gun game known as IDPA. Many have said that it is a required technique for the well-trained gunman's toolkit. We say that claims of the need are a myth, and the so-called tactical reload truly fits that old cliché of "a great solution to a non-existent problem.” Let’s start by identifying just what the TR is.
There are various terms used for various reloading techniques. For clarification, we will confine this discussion to autoloading pistols and use the following terms: SPEED RELOAD (SR): while there is still a round in the chamber and the slide is forward, the magazine is released from the gun and allowed to fall free as a new magazine is placed into the magazine well. EMERGENCY RELOAD (ER): similar to the speed reload EXCEPT all rounds have been fired and the slide is locked back with an empty chamber. TACTICAL RELOAD (TR): with rounds still in the magazine and a round in the chamber, the shooter secures a spare magazine with the off hand, brings it to the weapon, releases the magazine in the weapon into the off hand where it is held while the replacement magazine is placed into the magazine well. The partially spent magazine is then secured for later use. RETENTION RELOAD (RR): with rounds still in the magazine and chamber, the magazine in the firearm is released into the off hand and secured for later use. The off hand then gets a spare magazine and inserts it into the magazine well of the firearm.
Why would we argue against the need for the tactical reload? There are a number of reasons. First and foremost is the fact that outside of the military there has been no verifiable instance of the rounds saved with a tactical reload making a difference in an actual gunfight. I can say that with a fair amount of confidence because several different people in several different venues have been trying for several years to find an example without any luck.
Second, the tactical reload is the reload that is most likely to be messed up. By its very design the TR is complicated and cumbersome in comparison to other reload techniques. It requires manipulation of two magazines at the same time and with the same hand. As can be regularly seen at matches, when a reload is flubbed it is almost always a tactical reload. Under the stress of an actual incident we can only expect the problem to increase, not decrease.
Third, the tactical reload does nothing that cannot be done as well or better with another method of reloading. If your concern is saving the ammo in the used mag the retention reload works better. It is more reliable, as you only have to manipulate one magazine at a time. If your concern is getting a new magazine into the firearm the speed reload or the emergency reload are better. Again, one needs only manipulate one magazine. So if our concern is speed, the SR and the ER provide a faster reload than the TR. If our concern is saving the remaining rounds of ammo, the RR provides greater reliability than the TR.
Fourth, learning the tactical reload is actually anti-tactical. It takes time from our limited training resources to develop a skill that is not needed, and it creates another decision-point for us by increasing the number of options we must pick and choose from. Both of those issues adversely impact our overall fighting ability.
"But wait" some say. "The TR is designed to get you a full magazine into the firearm during a lull in the action." And they are right...but there is a huge problem. How do we know if there is a lull in the action? Literally by definition we cannot know if there is a lull until the lull has already occurred. I've fired a few rounds at the Bad Guy, and I'm securely behind cover. My opponent seems to be down and out, so I start to reload. He suddenly jumps up and charges my position. No lull any more. If I am able to do the TR, I am gambling, as I don't know if my "lull" is actually sufficient until after the TR is completed.
But let's stay with this scene for discussion purposes. We've had our encounter, the Bad Guy is down, and you have some cover and want to top off the gun. The SR is a better choice here because we have no idea if we have a lull or not. Just drop the partially spent magazine. If things are really over or there really is a lull, then you can pick the magazine up after your firearm is fully loaded. If you happen to be in a position where that is problematic, such as wading through the floods after Katrina or in mud up to your ankles, the Retention Reload shines. You have greater control over both magazines at all times, thus reducing the chance of fumbling one or both of them and losing them in the mud or water. Remember, we need to decide what we want to do. If we are reloading because we think there is a further need for our gun, we need to reload as fast as we can, thus the SR or ER. If we want to save our partially expended magazine and there are no time constraints, the RR provides the greatest reliability.
Michael Bane, well known shooter and writer, relates the following comment from a discussion with an Israeli security specialist and top firearms instructor: "We stopped teaching tactical reloads," he told me, "because the people who tried to do them kept getting killed." That is the basic problem with the Tactical Reload. I won't go so far as to argue that it gets you killed all by itself. But the time and effort spent learning to perform it well is time and effort that is not spent learning something that could make a difference for you. It is a nice trick for the range, but nothing that can't be achieved just as well with a Retention Reload.
The Tactical Reload can be learned, and it can be done. I learned it well and can do it quite quickly. But it still remains a solution searching for a problem. Many things can be done well given enough training, but their actual tactical benefits are few. And that is the crux of The Myth of the Tactical Reload, the idea that it is tactical in any way, shape, or form. It is the only reload that substantially differs from the others. The SR, ER, and RR all rely on a simple task...take one magazine in the off hand and insert that magazine into the magazine well of the firearm. The TR complicates that task in a way that provides no benefit to the shooter. Posted by David Armstrong at 1:31 PM Labels: reloading handgun, reloading techniques, tactical reload 34 comments:
Greg said...
I followed you here from GlockTalk and really enjoy your writing and choice of topics. You seem to be a voice of sanity in the otherwise crazy world of internet gun voices. Could you please write more often, if time permits? March 31, 2010 3:37 PM Dandapani said...
Shoot to slide lock. Reload. Shoot to slide lock. Reload... Repeat as needed. March 31, 2010 8:00 PM JD said...
I don't really get it either, while I've only shot a total of four IDPA matches, I don't know why I'd ever want to try and change a magazine using only a limited number of digits of my "weak" hand to hold a fresh mag and remove the partial. April 1, 2010 9:01 AM David Armstrong said...
Thanks Greg. That is what the site is about, trying to bring a little sanity and reason to an area filed with fantasy and myth. I write as time and energy allow, plus it takes a bit of time to research some issuses. But I'm alway interested in the views of others as well as their suggestions. So if you (or anyone else) has a topic they would like to write on, or maybe thinks there is an issue that we need to explore, let me know! April 1, 2010 12:19 PM David Armstrong said...
You are right, Dandapani, in that slide-lock is the likely notification that we need to reload during a shooting incident. Hopefully we keep our wits about us enought to keep the situation from reaching slide-lock in the first place, but that is why I feel the single loading process that is shared by SR, ER, and RR is the best way to train. No matter what our situation the process is the same....clear the old mag out of the way, put a new mag in. April 1, 2010 12:27 PM David Armstrong said...
Well JD, IDPA was looking for something to distinguish itself from IPSC/USPSA when it started up, and for whatever reason they latched onto the TR as one of the defining elements, which in turn really popularized the technique. And it seemed like a good idea in the beginning. Shoot a bit, then top off the gun while reserving your ammo for later...that's a good idea. But like so many good ideas it sort of falls apart in the real world, once again demonstrating the myth that what is a good skill on the range automatically translates into a good skill for the streets. April 1, 2010 12:33 PM Greg said...
David, thanks for the reply. I'd be surprised if you don't have a laundry list of topics already, but here are a couple I'd enjoy reading.
1. Caliber choice for a compact, possibly concealed, handgun. What sort of penetration is necessary, what is effective, and what is excessive? What sort of magazine capacity is needed? I enjoyed your article on the underappreciated .38 and would like to see a similar article on auto-loaders and caliber/ manufacturer choice.
2. External safetys, or no?
3. Best body locations for carrying a concealed handgun, including backup firearms for peace officers.
But hey, even if you don't cover those, I enjoy reading your stuff and have your RSS subscribed so I don't miss anything. Thanks for the work you put in to help the rest of us. April 2, 2010 8:17 PM Xavier said...
David, Thank you for this. I wonder, really, now that you have made me think about something I never considered, what Jim Cirillo would have thought on the subject.
I suspect I know, but I would still have liked to ask him. There is more to tactics than reloading, and more to gunfighting than guns. I have always maintained that the best reload is the New York Reload, and the most important shot in a gunfight is the first.
Tactical reloads are little more than a plan of action to increase one's ability to respond during a percieved lull on a fight. Mike Tyson may have few redeeming qualities, but he knew fighting. I fall back on one of his quotes. "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." There is a lot of truth in that. Having a plan to meet the reality of the fight is better than no plan at all, but a plan will never replace the mindset to persevere. April 3, 2010 12:54 PM knice said...
Shoot to slide lock? Great thing to have happen when someone is shooting at you. If taught correctly, a TR is done only if there is a pause or break in the shooting. Most likely after shots fired and it "is over." But you prepare for it not being over by topping off with a TR. It's not some high speed drill, it's preparation for what comes next. It is not a major skill but still a good one to have. April 3, 2010 1:57 PM Glenn B said...
I have always disliked the so called tactical reloard - figured it best to drop the mag and reload. If you are behind cover and there is a lull, you can always pick up the released magazine but you have a fully loaded gun when doing so and did not have to worry about juggling two magazines at once in one hand at that.
As for the Rentention Reload, please explain to me how you arrive at the point where you would make it. I just do not quite understand how it is that you have rounds remaining in the magazine (and we are talking semi-auto pistol here are we not) yet have no rounds within the chamber. This sounds like a very unlikely scenario. If my chamber is empty it is either because I just fired everything that was in the gun or that I just cleared a malfunction. I suppose I am missing something so please explain that one to me. Thanks.
All the best, Glenn B April 3, 2010 5:55 PM David Armstrong said...
Thanks for the list of ideas, Greg. Some may not fit the mythology format, but all are certainly issues worthy of discussion. April 4, 2010 4:27 PM David Armstrong said...
Xavier: I'm pretty sure Jim would have questioned the TR, given his concern with focusing on what won fights. And as you mention, he certainly supported the New York reload during his career. As for the "lull in the fight" thing, that is the problem. You just don't know if you have a lull until AFTER the act. Thus the problem topping off during a lull. April 4, 2010 4:31 PM David Armstrong said...
knice: While no one advocates shooting to slide lock most folks that study real gunfights find that the common response is you either shoot until the BG goes down or until you hit slide lock. And if we should do a TR during a pause or a break in the shooting, when do we know that has occurred and how long it will last? How do you know it is "over"?That is one of the problems with the TR, people suggest times to do it, but in a real fight there is no way to know if those times are actually there or not. If the fight is still going on one can top off faster and more reliably with a Speed Reload. If the fight is over, a RR works just fine. Sure, one can learn the skill of the TR, but we go back to the problem of learning another skill when the problem is already addressed better by other techniques. April 4, 2010 4:42 PM David Armstrong said...
Glenn B: Good catch on the chamber empty RR. That was typo on my part. Cut and Paste is not always your friend! I have corrected the terminology in the original post. As for your reasons for disliking the TR, I must agree. If you are not going to have time to squat, kneel, or whatever to pick up the mag you probably shouldn't be messing around with anything except the fastest, most reliable reload you can perform. April 4, 2010 4:47 PM dmurray said...
Great post on the Tactical Reload. Let it fall out of fashion. Would that we could get good advice without the fanboy, marketing propaganda overlay. I rationalize that I learned a lot, but as I look back I really would have been well served by the S&W model 13 I was issued and a few speedloaders. I fell for wondernines, 45's, 10mm.
So I say, practice, practice, practice. Sight alignment, trigger control, dry firing and the manual of arms don't sell stuff.
If anything, too much tactical reloading will mess up your floorplates when that heavy double stack magazine hits the concrete. (This is me resisting the temptation to shop for rubber floorplate protectors.) April 5, 2010 1:16 PM John Veit said...
Hi David,
Good article.
Over the years, I have always found your thread responses to be informative and level headed.
Since you are a thnking gunfighter, How about taking a crack at evaluating the design "flaw" in the 1911, and it's consequences for user's, and the point shooting method that provides for a fast, automatic, and correct flash sight picture as well as a correct sight picture.
Hi John. I'll consider that for later, perhaps in a larger Point Shooting/Target Focus thread. For those of you who don't know him, John is the developer and ceaseless advocate of a very unique method of firing the handgun that has generated a lot of attention, both good and bad, over the years. This is not the place to debate that method, but I do encourage everyone to visit the Pointshooting.com website. Whether you agree with the specific technique or not there is a fair amount of information there, and much of it should give the Thinking Gunfighter something to think about. April 11, 2010 3:45 PM 49GUY said...
I would have to say worrying over why TR is a bad thing doesn't make sense. I would assume I would do whatever I did and maybe the training would help and maybe Id forget it all and just try my damndest to hit the sob as many times as I could. Then thinking about cover Id run to it or get to it if moving already and reload as best I could. I would hesitate to reload unless its safe or Im behind cover. That sounds more like how it would go. Dropping your mag on the hard pavement or tile? I can see the rounds popping out of it or sticking up in the mag so when you do pick it up it may be empty or fouled up in some way lips bent or what ever. Ill just keep mine thanks to TR and Ill know its ok and how many rounds Ive got IF I count. Doesn't really matter if you need a few more that dropped mag is all you'll have. As you reload from cover or out in the open while he bleeds why the hell would you want to be looking around on the ground for a mag? My eyes would be on the sob. If he has friends I'd be moving automatically no training needed. Trained or not you'll only do what you do. You may do some of it right and you may do some of it wrong. Reloads may or may not be in the equation. I was tought once to carry as many assets as you can gun, stun-gun, mace, baton and a knife. Now thats a thought. May 4, 2010 3:48 AM 49GUY said...
Another thing you keep talking in these senerios. You can take cover and do a SR then if it really is a lull you can pick up the mag. Where is the mag? They go all all over the place dont they? Mine do. You really want to start looking for it? Step on it and slip and fall? I can appreciate all your thoughts and facts you've gathered but when Im crouched down behind cover I cant stuff a mag in anywhere so how do I RR? Front pockets are bent closed. Rear pockets are tight or covered by a coat. Maybe down the back of my pants but if I got a coat on it aint goin in there either. So you have to sweep the coat aside and put it in there? All this time to fiddle with a RR and no mag in the gun!! So you get rushed and then what? California guns now have to have a mag safety not so good. So TR "IS" good for something. A Michael Bane comment. Remember the cops in the 60s or 70s that picked up empty shells for revolvers because of training and got killed? The Israelis. Was that kinda the same? Wrong reload for the wrong conditions? I dont feel the TR is that hard. I dont like dropping a mag and moving on either unless its empty or your thinking well enough to know you got to do a SR right at that specific moment or your in trouble. Me I aint that clear thinking. Taking the time to find a place to put it? Id rather get a fresh mag out, catch the partial with my pinky and slam the full one in and fiddle with it after I got a full gun. Maybe the SR is predicated on having 15 round magazines? "It wont matter if you drop 3 or 4 rounds on the ground, you got 15 in it now". I dont feel 7 round mags go well with what your saying. You shoot 4 shots then reload. If you've got 2 mags you just dropped 20% of your ammo on the ground. 3 mags 11% May 4, 2010 5:14 AM David Armstrong said...
49Guy, you demonstrate just how this mythology tends to cloud our thinking. In the first post you write,
"Dropping your mag on the hard pavement or tile? I can see the rounds popping out of it or sticking up in the mag so when you do pick it up it may be empty or fouled up in some way lips bent or what ever. Ill just keep mine thanks to TR and Ill know its ok and how many rounds Ive got IF I count." Now, looking at that, how does a TR do anything that is not also done with the RR? That is the main point of understanding the mythology of the tactical reload...it doesn't do anything that can't also be done as well or better with another reloading technique. So why spend time learning it? Again, from the first post,
"As you reload from cover or out in the open while he bleeds why the hell would you want to be looking around on the ground for a mag?" Yes, why would you do that? If that is your concern, RR works quite well. If your concern, on the other hand, is reloading ASAP, the SR works fine. Again, nothing there that indicates the TR is a better solution.
From your second post,
"I can appreciate all your thoughts and facts you've gathered but when Im crouched down behind cover I cant stuff a mag in anywhere so how do I RR?" If you can't stuff a mag in anywhere with an RR how does the TR figure into the equation? That is part of the TR, securing the mag for future use. If you can't secure and store with a RR you can't secure and store with a TR.
You write,
"All this time to fiddle with a RR and no mag in the gun!! So you get rushed and then what?" And again, if you are in a hurry the SR is the answer, not RR or TR. If you are worried about getting rushed you should be executing the fastest, most secure reload you can, not the one that is the slowest and the most likely to be fumbled, wouldn't you say?
"The Israelis. Was that kinda the same? Wrong reload for the wrong conditions?" That is sort of the point, the TR is NEVER the right load for any conditions. Yes, it can be done. I'm pretty good at it myself. But there is nothing the TR does that cannot be done faster or more reliably with another technique. So we go back to the basic concept: if your main concern is to get rounds back in the gun then the SR is the fastest way to reload. If you want to save mags and ammo then the RR is the most secure way to reload.
"I dont feel 7 round mags go well with what your saying. You shoot 4 shots then reload. If you've got 2 mags you just dropped 20% of your ammo on the ground. 3 mags 11%." Why are you reloading after shooting 4 shots? Is the fight over with and you want to save the mags and ammo? If so, then it doesn't matter that 20% of your ammo is now on the ground, you can pick it up. If the fight is still going on and you don't have the time to put a mag away or pick it up, why would you want to TR? Wouldn't your concern be getting the gun back into full fighting trim ASAP? May 4, 2010 12:08 PM shoot 1911 said...
Your firsthand experience and solid logic compliment each other on this topic.
While I am very new to your blog, I hope to either find that you have written about which night sight configuration provides the optimum quick alignment and best visual acuity needed to aid in quick and accurate shots for most shooters. I am right handed and right eye dominant, I find that the 3 horizontal tritium dots tend to engage my sub-concious by creating a desire for me to aim versus point the front sight. Compare contrast with the dual vertical dot sights (Heinie straight 8) and Novak (dot front bar rear). This may end up being a personal preference and practice issue versus an actual eye to mind facts based advantage with one or the other sight style.
I know that your goal is to debunk marksmanship mythology, however someone with your background does have VERY educated opinions that are worthwhile to hear.
I will now procced with scouring your archives. Thanks for the efforts that you put forth in this blog project. June 8, 2010 8:47 PM J Van Gieson said...
IDPA is moving away from Tac Loads and RWR's on the clock. I agree with this trend.
Regards, Jeremy aka B Coyote June 11, 2010 2:59 AM David Armstrong said...
shoot 1911: Thanks for the comments. I'm not necessarily a good one to look into sights, as I've spent a long time slipping back and forth between platforms. But that sounds interesting and I'll see if I can find someone who might be more familiar with the literature and research in that area. Same thing with the rifle ammo you mentioned in your other post. How about it, folks...anyone want to take up the issue of different sighting platforms or if the short fat magnums are better than the traditional magnums? June 11, 2010 10:25 AM David Armstrong said...
J. Van Gieson: That is good to hear. I would suggest that almost by definition a TR or RWR is usually inappropriate if it is "on the clock" be it competition or real life. June 11, 2010 10:27 AM Just My 2¢ said...
I just got pointed to your Blog. This is great, open-minded, common sense thinking! When you're behind cover, that is not the time or the place to spend precious time with a TR. It's time to get loaded up fast, fire from cover, and end the engagement!
Just out of curiosity, do you intend to post some more? July 4, 2010 1:18 PM David Armstrong said...
Thanks, 2 Cents. that is what the site is for, someplace to share common sense. I do intend to post more as time allows. It's been a busy Summer. But the bog is not just for me, it is for all of us. Anyone who has an idea and would like to get it posted here just let me know. Hopefully by the end of the Summer I'll get up a couple of things I've been working on relating to Target-focused Shooting (point shooting) and Carrying Chamber Empty/Israeli Style. July 5, 2010 4:47 PM Anonymous said...
Sgt dean cuputo used a Tac reload to save his life during a 5 vs 1 gun fight he was involved in against known gang members July 7, 2010 7:46 AM David Armstrong said...
From "Anonymous" we see the mythology at work. Dean did not use a tactical reload to save his life. ANY RELOAD would have worked. For those of you not familiar with it, Dean (and a few other notables) were attacked. Dean dispatched some of the attackers with his handgun (1911 .45, IIRC) and did execute a tactical reload while taking cover behind a car. However, he only needed 2 or 3 rounds from that second magazine to finish solving the problem. So the fact that he had done a TR had no effect on the outcome of the fight. I'm operating from memory here, but I think that he would have finished the fight with just the rounds in the original mag if he had continued on.
Again, folks, it isn't that you can't do a TR, it isn't that a TR has never been used, it is that the TR is the most problematic of the reloads and offers nothing that can't be done as well or better by another technique. July 8, 2010 4:37 PM Anonymous said...
I think training can enable one to overcome some of the negative effects of the fight-or-flight hormone dump;
BUT, I also suspect that there is a tendency to vastly underestimate the level, consistency and intensity of training and experience that may be required. Before the fact, we kind of over-estimate what we think we can bring to the table.
I am guessing that for even the best of us, whether we will adequately perform such skills when there is a realistic probablility that the guy "right there" is going to hit us with his next shot (and here it comes) is probably something of a mystery ... until it is over.
A good analogy might be to think analytically and perform independent digital manipulations when one has accidentally fallen off some second-story landing is about to hit the ground.
In the words of a great and realistic martial philosopher, "Simplify,simplify!"
(Good article! -- dugo from GlockTalk) August 6, 2010 8:08 AM David Armstrong said...
You're right, dugo, that training helps us overcome some of the problems but that it also gives a false sense of how we will perform. As others have pointed out we generally will perform at our BEST level during training and our performance during an actual incident will be somewhere below that "best" level. August 6, 2010 1:11 PM Jim Linch said...
>Again, folks, it isn't that you can't do a TR, it isn't that a TR has never been used, it is that the TR is the most problematic of the reloads and offers nothing that can't be done as well or better by another technique.
One place I find a TR better than a RWR is working off the belt without a dump pouch, I prefer to the partial into the most rearward mag pouch.
Picture four mags on the belt with two on the left and two on the right of centerline stopping before 09:00 and 03:00.
By doing TR with the mag closest to the 09:00 or 03:00 I keep full mags closest to the centerline and the place most likely to draw from during an emergency reload.
The TR works best with this setup (this is a SHTF slick setup, not CCW) because I streamline the process from "dump mag to pocket / load mag to gun / load mag from pocket to mag pouch" to "bring mag to gun / return partial to pouch" as I'm going.
Digging in the pocket full of partials is uglier than digging in a dump pouch. Since you are doing a TR outside of an immediate fight (aka "lull") you have time to do a TR. If you fumble you have more ammo on body and pick up the mag and carry on.
If I have 2 spare mags only then fumbling becomes more tragic and the RWR is the way IMO.
I use to be a RWR ONLY!! guy, but having moved outside of the CCW "box" and in between the "full kit" box, I see a need for it now. September 7, 2010 11:56 PM David Armstrong said...
Jim makes a good point, that there are always going to be certain situations or narrowly formatted issues that can change what we would think of as the "normal" process. While I might argue a few of his points for general use or for me in particular, he has identified a response that he thinks best for him in this scenario and that is something for us all to remember. What works best for you, with your particular situation, using your particular gear, with your particular skills, is what you should probably do, rather than what works best for somebody else. September 9, 2010 10:07 AM Anonymous said...
I have been reviewing the NYPD report for officer involved shootings since the late 1800's. In almost all accounts by that department, shootouts were brought to a close with an average of 3 rounds fired; in low light conditions. From their example, I would say that no reload is just as probable as a tactical reload.
I believe that most of the documented encounters involved the service revolver and not autoloaders. Besides this tidbit, how many concealed carry holders routinely carry additional ammo? I don't. If 13 founds are not enough to solve a lethal force situation, I'm gonna be in a world of hurt. Not being where the bad guys are is, in my opinion, far better an option than performing a reload to fend off the swarm.
Just my thought. September 22, 2010 5:14 PM David Armstrong said...
That's a good analysis. We often put a lot of effort into training that gives us very marginal results. Reloads are one example of that. The odds of needing to execute a reload of any type during a fight are very small, and the odds of knowing how to do "Reload A" versus "Reload B" making a difference are even smaller. September 23, 2010 8:42 AM
Posts: 56912 | Location: GUNSHINE STATE | Registered: 05 October 2003
Also interesting! I am not sure that I am onboard with the P&S shooting though ie. pulling the trigger with the second finger?!!! Peter.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
p dog, as I read it, his point was that the RR was better in most cases, but I agree with you. learn both, but again, his point was that time spent on practicing the TR could be spent shooting! Not trying to start an argument, but his comments were thought provoking at least. Peter.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
I can think of several police shootings going way back to the days of the revolver, where the concept of "tactical reload" was developed.
(LAPD Limas & Roberge, for one, which, btw, also began research into the concept of "speedy loaders".) And since semi-autos have become common, there are others.
The tactical reload is a necessary skill to have. To dismiss it is foolish. Will you need it? Who knows? But if you do, and you can't, well......
114-R10David
Posts: 1753 | Location: Prescott, Az | Registered: 30 January 2007
The Tactical Reload is taught because there is a time and place for it. Not sure about the dropping a magazine, w/an unknown number of rounds left, on the deck. Why? The Tactical Reload, shoot to slide lock and reload, and the OH SHIT malfunction-rip the mag out, cycle slide a few times, and reload are the only three I see learning.
Robert
If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802
Posts: 1207 | Location: Tomball or Rocksprings with Namibia on my mind! | Registered: 29 March 2008
Tactical Reload w/a revolver is easily learned. Shoot two, pull out two, go to loops and get two more. Crook jumps up after six rounds, you put four in him and go to speed loader for six! Only problem, the Drill and Ceremony (D&C) types don't like seeing two speed loaders and 12 singles on your belt! Add a lever action rifle in the same calibre as your revolver and your set...course the D&C types don't like lever action rifle either!
Robert
If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802
Posts: 1207 | Location: Tomball or Rocksprings with Namibia on my mind! | Registered: 29 March 2008
RVL I have the flexible "strips" (for want of a better term) that hold 6 rounds, so your "top up" sounds good to me. Edited to add: I believe they are called "Speed Strips". Peter
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
I have shot a lot of IPSC, and some IDPA. They are good training for gunhandling skills..
In the real world, I have never shot to slide lock, I have done speed reloads, and tactical reloads as well, depending on the situation.
The reason so many tactical reloads are fumbled durring IPSC or an IDPA match is, that durring a Match there is no "down time" the clock is always running... So the shooters hurry at a "frenzeed" rate...
While in most civilian/police shootings it is not necessary to retain your magazine, in a war or survival situation it is a different story. It might be a good idea to not only keep them, but keep them out of the "dirt".
On another thought, if you have "popped" few rounds out of your semi auto, have you ever thought about getting a magazine out and holding it in you off hand in conjunction with it helping to grip your handgun, to have it "more handy" for the reload when/if it becomes necessary?
Here is where I learned that technique, it was in an IPSC match. It was designed by a 38 Super shooter. It was a moving assault type course, at the nect to the last firing position you fired 9 shots, and when you got to the last firing position you fired 9 more...
So even if you reloaded you 1911 with an 8 round mag, you would be one round short.
So on the next to las position I arrived with a 1911 in 45 ACP with 9 rounds all up... I had a spare mag in my left hand. I shot the stage to slide lock, quickly reloaded, dropped the slide, dropped the magazine and reloaded with another 8 rounder so when I arrived at the last firing position I had 9 rounds all up...
Yes, I know it was a GAME, but by thinking, I used some "tools" in my "tool" box, to solve the problem...
Every 45 ACP 1911 shooter before me had fired their 8 rounds and had to reload... The ones after me, guess what they did???
Long story short, my thoughts are, develop all the skills you can, you never know when they will come in handy.
Chances are unless you are WELL trained and WELL practiced you will shoot to slide lock anyway...
And, how many of you carry spare ammo ALWAYS when you "Carry"???
When I made Drug Warrant entrys with a semiauto handgun as a Primary I carried an extra mag in a wrist band specifically designed to carry an extra mag. That put my reload as close to the gun as possible...
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002
The one bad thing about revolvers and Speed loaders is if you have only speed loaders you can not do a tactial reload, and top off your revolver.
When I carried a revolver, I always carried at least 2 speed loaders and 12 rounds in loops...
The exception was, when I carried a S&W 25-2 in 45 ACP. At first I carried 8 half moon clips, later 4 full moon clips. But I did have a Colt LW Commander in my left front pocket and 2 extra magazines on my belt...
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002
Of course, the video does NOT show a tactical reload! That being said, is it for real? I have seen it before on YouTube and still find it hard to believe. Peter.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
When my brother - with an English police force tactical firearms unit - carried a revolver (as a back-up to his pump shot gun or 'scoped rifle) he used Bucheimer's "Double Six" carriers.
Posts: 6823 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: 18 November 2007
It is quite easy to train and obtain what you see in the video. Dry training at home 30 mns everyday. What I did with my wheelguns and it has always been a pleasure to read the results with 50 or 60 shooters behind me in overall ranking despite their 18 or 23 rounds race guns.. ( I do the same when I test new handguns) I had to lose some habits I got from years of practice of police practical shooting. then with a whellgun, it becomes really a tactical relaod when one has to quickly decide when to reload or wether it is necessary to reload between firing position.Keeping count of the fired rounds without even thinking of it becomes a second nature.
WHEELGUN POWAAAAA!
Posts: 157610 | Location: Ukraine, Europe. | Registered: 12 October 2002
Edmond, agreed as long you have drop free mags! Peter.
Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong;
Originally posted by N E 450 No2: The one bad thing about revolvers and Speed loaders is if you have only speed loaders you can not do a tactial reload, and top off your revolver.
When I carried a revolver, I always carried at least 2 speed loaders and 12 rounds in loops...
The exception was, when I carried a S&W 25-2 in 45 ACP. At first I carried 8 half moon clips, later 4 full moon clips. But I did have a Colt LW Commander in my left front pocket and 2 extra magazines on my belt...
I bet that raised a few eyebrows; having magazines hanging on your belt and only a revolver in public view.
I am curious about your comment that you can't do a tactical reload if you only have speed loaders. I don't understand what you mean.
Why can't you just dump out everything that's in the cylinder and load fresh rounds. I realize it's somewhat wasteful of ammo, if you didn't fire every single round. But who's counting?
In any case, a second gun is always the fastest "tactical reload."
But that's not an option for me as my business partner has a thing against guns. I can get away with the .380 he doesn't know about, but nothing more. So my "tactical reload," if I ever need one, is going to have to be one of the chefs' knives. Or a chair upside the head.
I can get away with the .380 he doesn't know about, but nothing more.
The brilliant CZ in .380, .32 and now 9mm Makarov was just made for situations like that with a somewhat large magazine capacity!
Regarding revolvers the one advantage of the Webley top break was that it would eject the spent cases but the remaining live rounds with their long noses would fall back into their holes in the cylinder.
Posts: 6823 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: 18 November 2007
Originally posted by N E 450 No2: The one bad thing about revolvers and Speed loaders is if you have only speed loaders you can not do a tactial reload, and top off your revolver.
When I carried a revolver, I always carried at least 2 speed loaders and 12 rounds in loops...
The exception was, when I carried a S&W 25-2 in 45 ACP. At first I carried 8 half moon clips, later 4 full moon clips. But I did have a Colt LW Commander in my left front pocket and 2 extra magazines on my belt...
I bet that raised a few eyebrows; having magazines hanging on your belt and only a revolver in public view.
I am curious about your comment that you can't do a tactical reload if you only have speed loaders. I don't understand what you mean.
Why can't you just dump out everything that's in the cylinder and load fresh rounds. I realize it's somewhat wasteful of ammo, if you didn't fire every single round. But who's counting?
In any case, a second gun is always the fastest "tactical reload."
But that's not an option for me as my business partner has a thing against guns. I can get away with the .380 he doesn't know about, but nothing more. So my "tactical reload," if I ever need one, is going to have to be one of the chefs' knives. Or a chair upside the head.
If you dump everything out of the cylinder and then reload, that would be a speed load, as you are not retaining nonfired rounds.
The benefit of a tactical reload is that in the case of a semi auto you are retaining the remaining rounds left in the magazine, or if the mag is totally empty you are retaining the mag for future use.
With a revolver a tactical reload is "topping off" the cylinder replacing fired rounds with live rounds.
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002
I can't speak to the IPSC or IDPA games as I have little experience with them...I always have looked at this stuff as surviving.
Most double stack semi autos carry at least 12 rounds regardless of whether they are 9mm, 40, or 45.
So that means with two magazines, you have 37 rounds of ammunition. If you find yourself firing two or three two or three shot strings and the job is done yet, then reloading is probably a good idea. Dump the magazine period and reload. If you are behind cover and can pick it up great if not who cares. You can pick it up when all is said and done.
The likelihood that leaving 6 or even 12 rounds in a spent magazine(s)on the ground is going to be an issue after having fired 25 is about zero.
I suspect if I were to ever do two reloads and be down to my last mag and had fired another six and the fight wasn't over with after I had now expended 18 rounds of ammunition...I would "un-ass" my self from the area of operation.
I always believed the fastest reload was a second gun so I carried an AMT Back up hidden on my weak side.
Mike
Legistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
Posts: 10162 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003
Originally posted by Peter: Of course, the video does NOT show a tactical reload! That being said, is it for real? I have seen it before on YouTube and still find it hard to believe. Peter.
I play IPSC and I have no doubt that what Travis Tomasie do there is for real.
STIG
Posts: 87 | Location: Norway | Registered: 28 August 2009
