Combat and LEO's on duty are excluded.

I had to partially draw a pocket .357 one night to discourage three would-be muggers. I warned them I was armed and that didn't discourage them. When one reached into his pocket with his left hand and reached across with his right hand, I half drew the revolver, fully intending to shoot if I saw even a glint of metal coming out of his pocket. A cell phone would have gotten him shot. When they saw the gun, they fled.

I also had to warn a trespasser who was scoping out my house to leave and that I was armed. He left.

Anyone else?

No but I have taken the time, effort and money to get the very best training I could find.Without that you put yourself in a very bad situation.It's serious business .I did have a gun in hand when I chased a bear away that was trying to come inside .

One night my youngest adult son and I were exiting a restaurant somewhat late in the evening when three guys fell into troup behind us about 10 yards. After a bit over a block of walking I suggested to him that coat clearing was in order. In a relatively loud voice I ask him if he had his 226. He replied "Yes" in the same focused tone of voice, and we clear our suit coats at the same time.

As we did that the group broke up and went different directions. They were not at an intersection. We never saw any of them again.

Is as close as any of us have ever come. BTW ... neither of us was actually heeled though we both have permits. We don't make the mistake of assuming the other will carry any more.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Anyone else?

I shot a rabbit with my .38.

In most jursidictions, if you're "clearing your coat" or otherwise making some sort of "furtive move for a gun" the person you're trying to intimidate has altogether legal cause to shoot you dead.

"He went for his gun." -- That's a damned constructive defense in court.

quote:

Originally posted by fatbutnotdead:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

Anyone else?

I shot a rabbit with my .38.

I assume the rabbit did not return fire...

Do any of these threads stay on topic?

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
In most jursidictions, if you're "clearing your coat" or otherwise making some sort of "furtive move for a gun" the person you're trying to intimidate has altogether legal cause to shoot you dead.

"He went for his gun." -- That's a damned constructive defense in court.

Not quite true (in most jurisdictions) ...
The "defendant" will have to prove he was scared (and in most cases) for his life, before deadly force is justified. If you hear me ask my friend if he has a gun, you cannot shoot us. I guess you can but you'll have a new boyfiend within a couple of hours )

I have not had to "suggest", brandish or worse, But I did watch my father, and it was a bad situation that got worse when the "Iron" came
out. The motto I hear in my head is "If you're stupid enough to pull the gun, be smart enough to pull the trigger" and NEVER talk about it, period.

quote:

The "defendant" will have to prove he was scared (and in most cases) for his life,

You shoot someone in self-defense because you believe they're pulling a gun on you -- your counsel will "beg the question" that your response was predicated on fear.

"Beg the question" is a formal legal procedure whereby counsel requests that opposing counsel stipulate whatever is in question.

You can Google "stipulation."

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

quote:

The "defendant" will have to prove he was scared (and in most cases) for his life,

You shoot someone in self-defense because you believe they're pulling a gun on you -- your counsel will "beg the question" that your response was predicated on fear.

"Beg the question" is a formal legal procedure whereby counsel requests that opposing counsel stipulate whatever is in question.

You can Google "stipulation."

quote:

You can Google "stipulation."

Why?

Enjoy your new boyfriend, Bill

I'm not a lawyer, I buy and sell them.

Had a friend of mine get arrested when he was in the right.

While sitting at a gas station, a man reached through his passenger side door window, unlocked the door, and started to sit down. He quickly changed his mind when he noticed the 45acp staring back at him. He ordered the intruder to get out(which he did) but failed to call police. BIG NO NO!!

BG called cops and my friend was arrested, had his gun taken(which was returned), and went through a lot of crap. No time in jail, but spent a lot of money fighting it in court.


I've had to arm myself a couple times, but situations never required that I had to remove from holster.

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:
The motto I hear in my head is "If you're stupid enough to pull the gun, be smart enough to pull the trigger" and NEVER talk about it, period.

General discussion of SD situations, without specific state law, are fruitless.

I've never had to pull a gun, and, if I do, I'm going to jail, since CCW permits are impossible in my County.

One of the 600 permits, in about 30 years, came out and found a guy starting to steal the trans from his truck.

He pulled his Glock, and pointed it at the ground, telling the guy to get

"The fu... away from his truck."

The guy departed, called the police, and, said the guy had Assaulted him with the gun.

He denied it, and eventually no charges were filed, but, the police questioned him quite a bit, and when he finally got his CCW,
this was an issue in his interview.

Only reason he got a CCW was he owns a gunshop, and, I guess the police want you to get in a fire fight if there is a threat
that your guns will be stolen by bad guys. I guess guns are given a status above any other property, at least in Kali.

Interesting responses. I will shoot someone if I have to, and Florida laws are written so that a self defense shooting, if clearly such is the case, may not result in arrest.

In Florida, aggravated stalking is a forcible felony, right up there with murder and armed robbery, and use of deadly force is authorized. So if three guys are stalking you down the street and you are in fear for your life, taking one or two out is a possibility.

And don't forget the disparity of force doctrine. That would have gotten me off at age 64 with the three punks. But I'm glad I didn't have to fire.

By use, do you mean discharge a weapon. If that be the case, no. However if the term "brandish" could be applied, then yes, three times in the last 20 years of carrying concealed. Each time showing the weapon to the "miscreant(s)" sufficed to solve the problem.
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
By use, do you mean discharge a weapon. If that be the case, no. However if the term "brandish" could be applied, then yes, three times in the last 20 years of carrying concealed. Each time showing the weapon to the "miscreant(s)" sufficed to solve the problem.
GWB

"Use" as in any sort of circumstance. In the incident I related, simply brandishing the weapon was sufficient. I hate to think of the possible outcome had I been unarmed, though.

I was up late last night when I posted that I had never had to use my carry gun in self defense. However, after I posted that, I remembered an incident that happened a couple of years ago. I did use one of my glocks in self defense, just not against a two legged critter. I've told this story in a different forum but here goes.

I invited some friends to my lease to kill hogs. A 12 year old shot a hog we later weighed at 270 lbs with 243. He made a good shot but the hog ran off. We waited about 30 minutes before we started tracking him. I carry a handgun at all times when I'm in the field and I know my buds think I'm nuts. It came in handy this time. I took the kid with me to show him how to track, following the blood and hoofprints in the rain softened ground. I got careless as I did not have my pistol in my hand while tracking. We had tracked the boar about 70 yards in dense juniper. I was looking down at the ground following blood when he charged from about six feet. The hog grunted/snorted,and charged. The kid screamed. I snapped to what was happeneing and pushed the kid out of the way. The dam boar ran right between my legs, brushing me and knocking me over. I usually carry my pistol in a belt slide holster for easy access, but for some reason I had it in a fanny pack that day (that won't ever happen again). Lucky for me, the boar did not turn around and rip me a new one. I did a shoulder roll in the mud and came up with my pistol, but the boar had run off. If he had turned and been on me I'd have been done for. All this probably took about 5 or six seconds. the kid did not want to keep tracking the boar after this but I said I was. I continued following blood for another 20 yds or so until I came on him laying next to a fallen tree. I yelled to the boy, "here he is". No sooner had I done this than the boar got up and charged from a distance of 10 to 15 feet. However this time I had my pistol out and ready. I have a glock 36 in 45 acp. It has become my choice for daily carry. Probably not the ideal pistol for hog hunting but it is light and fast and its hard to argue about the effectiveness of big heavy slow bullets on the street. I shot this boar six times in 10 feet and was still trying to pull the trigger on an empty mag when he dropped. He dropped 2 feet in front of me. Talk about a rush. By the way, I'm ordering a glock 20 in 10 mm. It has a 15 round capacity. No more mister nice guy.

GWB

Nice hog. I've found my .357 to be very effective against hogs, as well.

Twice. Once in a standoff with 10-12 inebriated young adults. The appearance a .45 and a sober girlfriend deterred them from pursuing their "raid" of our camp for more beer. Once in a situation much like GW's in which I killed a 100 pound wounded and very pissed off boar hog at my feet (the momemtum of his dead body knocked me over).

After all these posts there isn't a single story of an actual shooting. So much for "gotta have."

quote:

Originally posted by BBBruce:
After all these posts there isn't a single story of an actual shooting. So much for "gotta have."

Um, even though I didn't pull the trigger (at least on the humans), I think I can say with some certainty that things would have gotten real ugly for me and the family had I not threatened deadly force. Those thugs were dead set on taking from us what they thought they needed. Had I not been armed, I'm 100% sure they would have proceeded, most likely over a beaten, bloodied, and possibly seriously injured or even dead me. To me, that's a "gotta have" situation, but I to each his own, eh? I see by your signature that, in my opinion, you just don't get it anyway.

Just ignore Brucie. Everybody else does. He's a Canadian lawyer who got run off the political forum months ago who was convicted for bear poaching. He usually posts while drunk, also. Not a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Just ignore Brucie. Everybody else does. He's a Canadian lawyer who got run off the political forum months ago who was convicted for bear poaching. He usually posts while drunk, also. Not a problem.

The problem with Bruce is that he represents the viewpoint of a lot of Canadians, who think the Right response to any violence, is to roll over and play dead.

We just had two 14 year old punks, this last weekend, "leave" a juvenile home, near Edmonton, and kill a couple, on an adjoining acreage, to steal their truck. A little frontier justice might have saved their lives.
Grizz

I'd never agree with Bruce, however, I think his point is a potentially dangerous one. The NRA is absolutely correct in making public and keeping stats on the times when an armed citizen did, in fact, prevent criminal activity and or save a life.
Such stats are very important, and should be used whenever this argument comes up.

I guess bruce belives cops should never carry also. I have never shot anybody on the job but the bussiness end of my weapon did a very good job of making up the minds of some very nasty bad guys Over the years.

Just because you didn't have to shoot doesn't mean the gun didn't do its job.

The question for 3B is:

Would any of the situations described have ended differently if the folks had pulled a rose instead of a gun?

quote:

Just because you didn't have to shoot doesn't mean the gun didn't do its job.

Absolutely.

Bingo.

3rd...

After my divorce, I started dating again, a nice woman who was also divorced. Her ex was a drug dealer that believed in sampling his wares (for quality control purposes I'm sure). Kathy and I had been together about a year when "drug boy" was released from jail (several drug charges and assault).

A state trooper friend of mine heard that this guy had been heard making death threats about the guy that was banging his wife (me) and called to warn me that this guy was out of prison and pissed off!

I bought a .357 Dan Wesson revolver with a 2" barrel and kept it with me at all times, even though my state does not allow concealed carry.

I was leaving my house one day and as I walked to my truck, another truck pulled into the driveway, blocking me from leaving. A VERY BIG, very angry looking guy started to get out of the truck, carrying an 18 inch pipe wrench.

Knowing that I didn't call a plumber, and suspecting that it was his intent to rearrange MY plumbing, I said, "Are you Robert X?" He said "Yeah, so what."

I said "Well, you have no reason to be here and if you don't leave NOW, I have something for you," and I pulled out the .357, aimed for center mass and thumbed the hammer back.

He immediately got back into the truck and I'm sure the black tire marks are still on the pavement!

If by "use" you meant actually discharging the weapon, then I guess I haven't used one. But, I'm positive that if I hadn't pulled that revolver, the day would have gone entirely different and I might not be here typing today....

Shof,

So you think that if you pulled out a rose as one of the other posters spoke about, things might have got antimated?
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Shof,

So you think that if you pulled out a rose as one of the other posters spoke about, things might have got antimated?
GWB

Well gee golly gosh, I suppose it's possible that he might have been overcome with emotion at the gesture. I then could have talked him into joining an anger management therapy session, got him into drug rehab and a job training program and become life-long buddies.

However, it's more likely that as big as he is, even without the pipe wrench, he would have kicked my butt three ways to Sunday. With the pipe wrench, he would have likely caved my skull in.....

The last I heard, he was back in prison because in a drug induced rage, he almost killed someone.

quote:

After my divorce, I started dating again, a nice woman who was also divorced. Her ex was a drug dealer that believed in sampling his wares (for quality control purposes I'm sure). Kathy and I had been together about a year when "drug boy" was released from jail (several drug charges and assault).

quote:

Originally posted by DesertRam:

quote:

Originally posted by BBBruce:
After all these posts there isn't a single story of an actual shooting. So much for "gotta have."

Um, even though I didn't pull the trigger (at least on the humans), I think I can say with some certainty that things would have gotten real ugly for me and the family had I not threatened deadly force. Those thugs were dead set on taking from us what they thought they needed. Had I not been armed, I'm 100% sure they would have proceeded, most likely over a beaten, bloodied, and possibly seriously injured or even dead me. To me, that's a "gotta have" situation, but I to each his own, eh? I see by your signature that, in my opinion, you just don't get it anyway.

I get it. You think killing somebody to stop them from taking beer is acceptable. Real "ugly" situation you had there.

As for shof, if you don't want a gangster druggie convict pissed off at you don't bang his wife. Another example of blaming the situation instead of yourself.

Shof,
You are to be commended on your restraint. You were very fortunate to be alert and armed. Also you were fortunate not to have to shoot the guy. I hope and pray that I never have to pull the trigger on a human being.
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
The problem with Bruce is that he represents the viewpoint of a lot of Canadians, who think the Right response to any violence, is to roll over and play dead.

We just had two 14 year old punks, this last weekend, "leave" a juvenile home, near Edmonton, and kill a couple, on an adjoining acreage, to steal their truck. A little frontier justice might have saved their lives.
Grizz

Not at all, griz. Freedom is never free. We live in a rule of law nation that gives us tremendous security, but it has its price. The folks those two assholes killed paid it. If you want to live in absolute safety from violent people you should move to North Korea. If somebody had killed the two escapees they would have been guilty of murder. Is that what you want? Is that way of thinking what you want the general public to think of Canadian gun owners? Are you one of those who want to kill gun ownership by making it too dangerous for the public to accept any more? Read my sig line.

BBBrucie,

In my case, Kathi had divorced the guy a year prior to his imprisonment of three years. You'd think that after four years, he'd no longer consider her to be his wife!

She wasn't legally married and hadn't been for almost four years before we met.

Who's to blame here? Kathi, a legally divorced woman? Me, legally divorced as well? Or should I blame a violent drug dealer/user who couldn't take responsibility for losing his wife because he couldn't be bothered to obey the law and control his impulses?

I'll tell you another thing. I would think very highly of anyone, Canadian or otherwise that took two "assholes" such as the escapees out of the gene pool.

You can continue to live in your sheltered little world, where everyone is happy and innocent people "pay the price" of security with their lives! That's not a too terribly secure of a world now, is it?

In the meantime, I'll continue to shop for another easily carried handgun....

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
BBBrucie,

In my case, Kathi had divorced the guy a year prior to his imprisonment of three years. You'd think that after four years, he'd no longer consider her to be his wife!

She wasn't legally married and hadn't been for almost four years before we met.

Who's to blame here? Kathi, a legally divorced woman? Me, legally divorced as well? Or should I blame a violent drug dealer/user who couldn't take responsibility for losing his wife because he couldn't be bothered to obey the law and control his impulses?

Most people who get into shooting scrapes do something to bring it on. Maybe you're the exception? However your story acknowledges that you were illegally carrying a concealed weapon. It just looks like two disreputable characters each with his own excuse. I'll venture one guess: if you had shot the man you'd have been charged and convicted of a weapons offence at the very least. Your brag makes you someone who commits a felony with a gun. Not the kind of guy to do P/R for the shooting sports I'm afraid. Very few people get clear from the drug crowd, and it looks like there are no exceptions in this story.

quote:

I'll tell you another thing. I would think very highly of anyone, Canadian or otherwise that took two "assholes" such as the escapees out of the gene pool.

You can continue to live in your sheltered little world, where everyone is happy and innocent people "pay the price" of security with their lives! That's not a too terribly secure of a world now, is it?

In the meantime, I'll continue to shop for another easily carried handgun....

Shof,

Back in the 1950's and 1960's the shooting crowd used to say that freedom was not free and sacrifice was sometimes necessary. Has that changed? Do we now think only other people have to sacrifice? If you think that only others must sacrifice that deprives you of much of what used to be the moral force behind gun owning arguments. You want to be creditted as a lawful gun owner while calling for others to be murderers? Many here at AR evidence psychopathic tendencies, like jetXhaust who trolls for someone to shoot and call "self defence." That attitude is why you're losing your rights.

I don't mind speaking out so there is at least one voice on this shooting board saying no to the extremism. Who knows, maybe one person will read it and later on vote against a gun-grabbing bill?

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Just ignore Brucie. Everybody else does. He's a Canadian lawyer who got run off the political forum months ago who was convicted for bear poaching. He usually posts while drunk, also. Not a problem.

Still sore 'cause I told everybody you had to wear Depends to stand in the line up to vote for Obama, eh?

Brucie,

I might have been convicted of a weapons offence, but at least I would still be alive! There's an old saying, "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six," and it's one I believe in.

Have you ever heard of intent? I was carrying a revolver with the sole intent of protecting myself from one person, Robert X. Robert X was "legally" carrying a pipe wrench with the INTENT of taking a life. So who's wrong? The one seeking to take a life with a legal "weapon," or the one using an illegal weapon to protect himself?

And the shooting crowd is right, freedom isn't free, but should two elderly people sitting in the apparent safety and comfort of their own home pay the ultimate price smply because two sociopaths cannot stay within the boundaries of law and socially acceptible behavior? How different would the outcome have been if their government allowed them to own a handgun and were able to protect their lives? Laws, regulations, governmental intentions and law enforcement couldn't protect them, Mr. Ruger or Mr. Glock might have given them a chance....

You can put your lawyer spin on any statement I make, but stand by my belief that individual protection begins not with more laws, regulations or even law officers, but with the individual. There will always be those to whom laws and regulations mean nothing or that those laws don't apply to them. I have a lot of respect for law enforcement as I've worked closely with them for over twenty years as a firefighter/emt/haz-mat tech, but when seconds count, they'll be there in minutes! And as it's been explained to me by LEO friends of mine, their primary role is to enforce the laws of society, not protect the individual...

So say what you will now Brucie Boy, I ain't buying your line of drivel....