The M10 (a $1000 for THAT ). The WSM/WSSM. Scent hiding spray. Scopes that can see the hairs on a flys arse at 1000 meters on a hunting rifle. Are we getting away from hunting? Do we need an action that is a few grams lighter than a standard one? Our fathers and grandfathers fought wars with heavy rifles and we are told we need a light weight rifle to hunt in the mountains (short supply in the Territory ) I know that people that hunt in the hills will say that any weight saved is good. But then they will pack a camera/spotting scope/GPS etc. What are your thoughts?

I read the WSSM's are a flop,dealers have been told to discount them.

You are quite correct; young impressionable shooters are ditching good rifles to be up with the latest craze!
Parker Hale 303 sporter on a No.4 action with 6x59 Pecar scope $100 (barrell like new); commercial FN Mauser sporter (1950) $400, early model Sako L461(like new)$500 with scope, mounts, dies and 200 shells. Just a few bargins in good hardware that folks were offloading.
The problem is that the bolt face on the WSM's range is only good for that range od cartridge and rebarrelling to something small is impossible.

A lot to said for those old rifles. The best pig rifle I have is an old .303 SMLE. Cant beat that 10 rnd mag and it doesnt mind a bit dirt in action. I'm quite happy for the punters to keep buying the latest and greatest. It keeps the manufacturers in business and like BAW says provides a good supply of quality second hand rifles onto the market.

I'll never buy a new rifle again. In my opinion the quality is on a continuous decline so I will buy a a 2nd hand Rem or Sako anyday over a new one. Screw on a new barell and you have a better outfit than a modern eqivalent.

I personally cant see the advantage of the WSSM - only 3 in the mag, feeding issues, massive throat erosion. A least they will keep the barell manufacturers in business.

And the blokes that put the 10x on the 30/30 are only going to leave more pigs in the lignum for me

Bakes,

I am perceived as a freak because I hunt on foot with an iron sighted rifle as a rule.

Some people are too lazy to carry a real gun these days. They're also too lazy to learn how to navigate, which is why they want a GPS. Ask a flight instructor who has to teach kids how to fly...the response they get is "why should I learn that when I can just follow a line on a GPS?"

Also until you can take a trip to the USA and visit Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, or Gander Mountain, you just haven't seen gimmicks yet...they even have remotely operated game cameras now so you can bait an area and check on whether any animals visit the bait from the comfort of your own home.

The WSM's are not taking off too well in the USA either. Still they may catch on unfortunately because Winchester wil demand that anyone selling Winchester guns keeps a stock of the WSM ammo or they won't be able to buy any other ammo from Winchester.

Richard

Sales and Marketing = Smoke and Mirrors.

There will always be some chump who'll buy new and improved over tried and tested.

You're on the money Bakes, the art of hunting is slowly being lost, young blokes I see coming through are more shooters then hunters. Watched a bloke at Belmont get the snot slapped out of him shooting a .270wsm from the bench. One of those plastic fantastic jobbies. Had a pretty good flinch going after ten rounds.

BAW,
Interested in the Parker Hale sporter for $100, do you have any more info?

Hell, the Brownings are already at half price! I may just wait until the Winchester Featherweights in 243wssm are heavily discounted, and get one! I don't have a 243, and a cheap Featherweight could be the way to go!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum.

Always ....

shift through the marketing bullshit ...

to get to the facts.

Sometimes we all get caught up in the hype however.

Now as I like 100 year old cartridges I believe a good century is neceesary to "test and try out" before I like them. Funny thing, the 50 year old cartridges, rifles, methods still work just as good as the latest and brightest gimmick.

Bakes

How is the 404 project, ready soon?

Majority of what is "invented" today is excessive and what do you need all the "smart" things for? Most new rifles are inferior crap....better not mention names or I will really be in trouble

Rifles getting lighter, calibers faster, equipment more complicated/sophisticated. Are hunters getting fatter, weaker, lazier and less skilled?

Antique rifles, older vines & cognac's, younger women

Cheers
/JOHAN

JOHAN, if you think the blaser R93 is compicated, wait until you see the new Mauser 03. It seems to me that it doesn't deserve the name 'mauser'. I always tend to think of the M98 or M96 when someone mentions mauser to me, this new one has so many gimmicks it makes the R93 look tame.
Then again, I suppose they are all made by SIG now, aren't they? At least it did say 'SIG' on the box it arrived in.

Think I'll just stick with the BBF, fine red wines, single malts, and a sensible woman who doesn't interfere with my hunting, and be done with it!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

Think I'll just stick with the BBF, fine red wines, single malts, and a sensible woman who doesn't interfere with my hunting, and be done with it!

Lagavulins my drink,
the wife's my favourite woman
and Mauser 98 style rifles are tops with me.

Johan, The .416 rigby mate. I spoke to my smith (finally) and it should be ready in about 2-3 weeks Going to shoot him an email tonight and get the serial number so I can apply for my permit to aquire. The NT firearms registry is about 3 weeks behind so I'm going to get in early

Now heres something I just don't get. A rimfire rifle with 4 extra barrels in other rimfire cals. Just get a .22 mag and be done with it

The only good thing about the new plastic multi BBl sako rimfire? The prices on the older sako .22lrs has dropped a lot!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
Johan, The .416 rigby mate. I spoke to my smith (finally) and it should be ready in about 2-3 weeks Going to shoot him an email tonight and get the serial number so I can apply for my permit to aquire. The NT firearms registry is about 3 weeks behind so I'm going to get in early

Now heres something I just don't get. A rimfire rifle with 4 extra barrels in other rimfire cals. Just get a .22 mag and be done with it

Yeah, and I bet the punter will suddenly realise that the .22 cal cleaning rod doesnt fit the .17. Back to the gun shop......

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
JOHAN, if you think the blaser R93 is compicated, wait until you see the new Mauser 03. It seems to me that it doesn't deserve the name 'mauser'. I always tend to think of the M98 or M96 when someone mentions mauser to me, this new one has so many gimmicks it makes the R93 look tame

David
I have tried to refrain my self from mentioning names In my book Mauser-03 is a Blaser R-93 in disguise
Actually, one rifle I would very much like to own is a BL 820

Bakes
Sounds like happy times are near. You got any more pictures? Don’t be shy Ah, new sako queer is another one of these plastic is fantastic. Why not get a 22 hornet?

Pm for you

Cheers
/JOHAN

So you guys would be happy with 1950's technology?
Not me, thanks...I like have the choice of a reliable scope, or a SS rifle with a good sythetic stock..I can get good comfortable *waterproof* boots that may only last for 3 or 4 seasons, but they are compartivily cheap to start with. I can also get lightweight but warm clothing that does not soak up water like a sponge...

I agree there is a lot of rubbish out there, but there is also some good stuff too...its up to us to sift through it and make the choice...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,you have to shoot underwater there.
It never rains out here,not for a while anyway.

Johan, No pics yet mate.

.22 Hornet, Nah I'm a bit of a .22mag fan. I think its the ideal calibre for fox whistling.

I,m in the process of changing down to some older rifles. Out goes the Weatherby Fibregaurd to be changed for a Brno ,same story with some other rifles. Pretty soon ,most of my hunting rifles wil be sako L461s or Brno 600, 602s . As for newer stuff. I do like the newer scopes ,but not the big 56mm scopes etc. Give me some nice long easy feeding cartridges in place of those WSSMs etc. Most of all ,give me a simple double rifle any day.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
So you guys would be happy with 1950's technology?
Not me, thanks...I like have the choice of a reliable scope, or a SS rifle with a good sythetic stock..I can get good comfortable *waterproof* boots that may only last for 3 or 4 seasons, but they are compartivily cheap to start with. I can also get lightweight but warm clothing that does not soak up water like a sponge...

I agree there is a lot of rubbish out there, but there is also some good stuff too...its up to us to sift through it and make the choice...

Regards,

Pete

Pete
I am very happy with 1890's technology, Lee Enfields ,Mausers and Mannlichers are wonderful things, but I will admit some of the gear made today is pretty good (non corrosive cartridges ) however new Winchesters, remingtons ect leave me cold.

cheers
Pete

Bakes
You got PM

Cheers
/JOHAN

Nothings come through yet mate.

I wonder has the relative price for a new rifle gone up or down over the years?

Was a new 1960's vintage BSA more affordable to the avaerage Joe than say a modern CZ550 is today?

Regards,

Pete

Dunno about relative pricing, but the price of Browning A-Bolts is down to $550, but ONLY for the WSSM's!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I agree with quite a few suggestions so far.
I am not a fan of the WSSMs but I do see some benefit in the WSM lineup. If I had a long action magnum I wouldnt go out and trade 'up' but if purchasing a first rifle in that class then they are a contender. My interest would be in a 35 Sambar (35WSM) on a BLR or BPR. Personally my short magnum is a 350 Rem Mag.
The sako quad. I am happy with a 22lr (my old Krico, or the old mans BRNO or sportco). Anything bigger or further away cops a centre fire bullet.
Stainless synthetic has its place especially in the Vic High Country. How bout in the tropics?
I like laminated stocks as they are still 'solid' but better in the wet than normal wood. I like the non plastic feel too.
I like modern levers (like BLR, Win 88, sako) and think the old designs are quite limited.
I am very happy with my old model tikka 55.
Dont like the big 50mm scopes either. Your cheek is meant to hug the stock not float in mid air as you look through a ridiculously high scope. If its too dark to see the game then your too late (or too early). Try something else. Hunt for the game, dont buy a product to get the game.
Basically the world is a boring place if you dont try something new AND if you give up on the old too quick. I will take the interesting and best from both worlds.

It is great to see that I am not the only "weirdo" out there who prefers many of the older rifles and only like a few of the 'new fandangled' things.

To my mind, if it is a bolt action rifle it has to be a Mauser 98, or clone. My gunsafe is over-run with M98s and BrnoZKKs and I love 'em!

Lever actions? Only two choices - Savage 99s and Winchester 1895s. Have no time for the newer models and really lament that Winchester Australia won't bring in 1895s in .405 and Savage won't resurrect the 99.

WSMs and WSSMs? You will NEVER find one in my gunsafe - I am convinced they are just a gimmick to generate more sales and their disadvantages far outweigh their advantages.

Riflescopes? I like 'em compact and think that 30mm tubes and 50 and 56mm objectives might work optically but are cumbersome and awkward on a hunting rifle.

However, with optics, this is one area where I do lean towards some modern developments and I am totally sold on the Trijicon Accupoint scopes - I have a 1.25-4x which would have to be one of the best big game scopes ever made and the only problem I have is deciding what rifle to put it on!.... .358W, 9.3x74R, .375, .404 or .416?.... I can't decide..... I guess that I had better buy three more 1.25-4x!!!!

I am totally unimpressed with the trend towards longer range 'hunting' which, I think, is largely 'fuelled' by some our American friends. I firmly believe that hunting is done on foot and within the detection range of our quarry. If you are shooting from so far out that even the most alert game animal cannot detect you then it may be a magnificent case of marksmanship but it is not hunting. Don't get me wrong, I am not above the occasional bout of 'sniping' but let's not call it hunting.. Similarly, shooting off a vehicle is just that - shooting and not hunting.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box before Bakesy decides that the "old timers" have lost the plot!

I notice the current trend seems to be to shitcan everything that you don't happen to own yourself .
That's o.k. but don't start whining when your mate shoots all the game before you can get close enough with your .303 or because it's too dark to see your open sights .
Sorry guys but I'm quite happy with my Model 70 featherweight 7mm WSM , my 7 x 50 Meopta , my stainless synthetic Remington VSSF and my 6.5 - 20 X 50 Leupold . If you don't like 'em then don't buy one . I also have my father's Model 1 Brno (which I will never part with) and a .410 built on an SMLE .
Not everything new is crap and not everything old is golden .

quote:

I notice the current trend seems to be to shitcan everything that you don't happen to own yourself .

No, it is not about shitcanning stuff because we don't own it - but about not owning it because we shitcan it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushchook:
Not everything new is crap and not everything old is golden .

Well said.
I do believe that some of these products mentioned have a place in the shooting sports just not in the particular field some of us are interested in.

I forgot to mention GPSs before. The thing most people dont realise is that unless you have detailed maps stored electronically in your GPS then you still need to carry maps and a backup compass. They are interesting to play with and for marking tracks and locations to add to an existing map to make it more detailed. Having grown up in the hills I can navigate and find locations very easily but get me out in the flat mallee scrub and a GPS would be handy for finding stuff again.

I will take the interesting and best from both worlds.[/QUOTE from Alpine Hunter]

Me too AH .
The .220 Swift was once considered a gimmick and is now a modern classic .Wish I'd never sold my Sako.
I guess I'll just console myself that my model 70 7mm WSM IS a Mauser 98 derivative and shoots 5 into < MOA .
Can someone who has used a WSM calibre (not WSSM) explain to me what all these supposed disadvantages of the WSM's are anyway ? Other than the 3 shot magazine I haven't experienced them . If you need more than 3 + 1 it could be that you're a crap shot , using the wrong calibre / projectile or shooting somewhere (with heaps of game) that I haven't been lucky enough to go yet anyway .

quote:

Can someone who has used a WSM calibre (not WSSM) explain to me what all these supposed disadvantages of the WSM's are anyway ? Other than the 3 shot magazine I haven't experienced them .If you need more than 3 + 1 it could be that you're a crap shot , using the wrong calibre / projectile or shooting somewhere (with heaps of game) that I haven't been lucky enough to go yet anyway .

I dont know what the game popn is like in the West but it's not hard to empty a 5 round mag on pigs and skippies in central west NSW. Bloody frustrating when the targets are still in range and you're trying to jam more ammo into the mag.

I dont think anybody here thinks all new stuff is crap but does it really help get more game in the pot? GPSs are fantastic and you cant go past UHF for co-ordinating a stalk but is a fluted barrel of any practical benefit?

I dont have a WSM so I cannot answer your question but what does the WSM offer that cannot be relicated by a calibre already out there?

Scott

quote:

Can someone who has used a WSM calibre (not WSSM) explain to me what all these supposed disadvantages of the WSM's are anyway ?

You asked about the disadvantages of the WSMs well this is how I see the matter. First of all, there is the loss of magazine capacity. Now, for most hunters this is not a serious handicap but there are times when more rounds in the magazine can mean the difference between success and failure. While some hunters have been accepting reduced magazine capacities with the belted magnums for years but this is a tradeoff – less rounds in mag for more performance.

However, the WSMs don’t offer more performance they only promise similar performance to the belted magnums and do not always deliver on that promise. Let me recite one story. A friend of mine, who ran a professional reloading business, bought a .300WSM to replace his .30/06. However, after a lot of fruitless load development (and remember this guy reloaded for a living so he knew what he was about) he couldn’t find an accurate load that exceeded the performance of his .30/06. Sure he could achieve higher velocities, but this was accompanied by a marked reduction in accuracy. I believe that this is because most (you’ll notice I said most and not all) rifles will shoot best with loads developing moderate pressures. For the WSMs to achieve their advertised ballistics, they have to operate at higher pressures – because you cannot get something for nothing. Higher pressures often means poorer accuracy. To finish this story - my friend sold the .300WSM and stayed with his .30/06.

It is a similar story to the old .458 Winchester Magnum saga. Winchester introduced this cartridge to provide a bolt-action equivalent to the .470NE, but with a smaller caliber and with a markedly smaller case. As it turned out, the .458WM normally cannot equal the .470 and even Winchester were, eventually, forced to drop their advertised velocities back to around 1900f.p.s. from the originally advertised velocity of around 2150f.p.s. Now some handloaders, with individual rifles and careful selection of powder and primers, can achieve the required velocities with the .458WM - but MOST can’t.

And when you push pressures up to try and achieve higher performance with smaller cases you are introducing a whole lot of extra wear and tear to your firearm, your cases and your reloading dies. As an IPSC pistol shooter, I stuck with the .45ACP for years (until it was stolen by little Johnny Hitler) because I knew that, with just a modicum of maintenance and at the low pressures of that cartridge, that gun would outlast me – while many of the shooters running high-performance race-guns would wear out guns and cases at an accelerated and, to me, alarming rate. This is also one of the reasons I have hunting rifles chambered for cartridges such as 7x57, 9.3x74R, .416 Rigby and .470NE – they provide all the performance I could possibly want and at relatively LOW pressures.

Another serious problem, that I see with all of the short magnums, is that a short fat case will NEVER feed as smoothly, or as reliably, as a long slender case. And an action built, or modified, for a short, fat case can only be rechambered/re-barreled to another short, fat case so, down-track, should you wish to rebarrel then your choices of cartridges is now severely limited.

Overall, I cannot see the benefit in the WSMs over any of the existing cartridges. There is nothing wrong with wanting something different, or playing with something unique, but I do object to the concept that the big firearms manufacturers are 'inventing' a market with products that don't measure up.

I am sure that there are other dis-advantages to be found with the WSMs but I might also ask; what are the REAL advantages of the WSMs - and by that I mean advantages that stack up against reality and are not just the usual advertising nonsense like shorter bolt throw or lighter firearm weight.

Having just mentioned that point, I cannot resist having a go at that ridiculous creation of the firearms industry – the shorter bolt throw myth. How many times have you read some advertisement, or magazine article, where they argue that the shorter bolt throw is better because it prevents short-stroking or is quicker to cycle? Anyone who has had a problem short-stroking a magnum bolt action, or found it slower to cycle, simply hasn’t done enough practice with that rifle (or the stock dimensions are wrong for them) and rather than buy a whole new rifle, and reloading gear, they would be better just buying some ammo and getting down the range and learning how to use the gun or having the butt adjusted by their gunsmith.

Anyway, that’s my two cents worth on those subjects!

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:
..... simply hasn’t done enough practice with that rifle (or the stock dimensions are wrong for them) and rather than buy a whole new rifle, and reloading gear, they would be better just buying some ammo and getting down the range and learning how to use the gun or having the butt adjusted by their gunsmith.

Bob ,
Can't disagree with anything you say there although I'd have to say the feeding issue seems to be more theoretical than practical as far as the Winchester model 70 goes . Mine feeds 100% perfectly , in fact better than any other centrefire I've owned .
Sure there has been a lot of BS about the supposed advantages of the WSM's and you have made mention of the marketing hype . IMHO they are really no better than the belted magnums .
In reality if the particular rifle I bought had been a 7mm Rem. magnum or a .270 Win. I would still have bought it. It was a review rifle and available at the right time at a sigificantly reduced price .
My rifle also shoots most accurately with milder loads that duplicate current factory ballistics of the 7mm Remington . Barrel vibration is a very complex subject though and it is quite possible that the .300 WSM doesn't have the capacity to reach the next accurate velocity node over and above that which can be reached with the .30/06 .
At the end of the day I think the WSM's are no better and no worse than a whole lot of others out there . What I would say is that in my experience they aren't so bad that they should be written off as hopeless . Somebody did shoot a world record group at 1000 yds with the 7mm WSM about a year or so back .

Bushchook

I must say that I agree with you here.

I dont see any difference in the WSM's or any new product, be it a car or computer ect, the people who sell these products are going to try & dazzle us with brilliant maketing campaigns,highlighting the best features in the best possible way, whether they work on you or not is an individual thing but to have any success they have be based on a certain amount of fact.

Personally I think the introduction of the WSM's onto the shooting market is one of the best & most exciting things to happen to us in years.

Having owned a 300 win mag, 7mm rem mag & 264 win mag, these days if I wanted that sort of performance there is no way in hell that I would go back to those long belted cases when the shorter non belted WSM's are just as easially obtained & perform just as well, my choice would be easy.

I think it strange that anyone buying a new rifle would not consider one of the WSM's if its suitable for their hunting situation & find out the real facts before making a decision.

http://www.shortmags.org