Another history question. Through the 20th century does anyone know the situation with handgun licencing and registration? I was never much interested in them and so didn't pay attention to their specific laws but I was wondering in particular for pre-1996 ownership whether they were already a registered firearm? Or were they just licenced like long guns, with no registration required?

My first pistol license was in 1981 they were licensed well before then.

I used to go to Melbourne pistol club from the age of 10 years old with my Dad.
At that time you still had to go and choose a pistol and then put in your license for that pistol.
When your license arrived, you could go and buy it.
Having said that, I was always allowed to rummage through a box of club pistols and choose one to use with my Dad.

P.S. this was 50 years ago!!

I don’t know about the rest of Oz but in Vic pistols were effectively banned in 20’s or thereabouts I’m pretty sure. Prior to that I don’t think there was any sort of registration or licensing.

It was only in the 50’s in the lead up to the 1956 Olympic Games that pistol shooting as a sport emerged. Who knows had it not been for the Olympic Games in Melbourne we still might not have pistols. Even today the only real way to own a pistol is for competition purposes and as you are probably well aware, there are strict requirements to acquire them and maintain ownership. Since the 50’s at least, legal pistols have always been tightly controlled.

The only loophole that I can recall was black powder pistols. Back in the 70’s you could buy Ruger Old Army BP revolvers and other BP firearms at disposal stores with no licence or registration at all. That loophole has been closed long ago.

I think 1920s.

However, there were plenty around without licence and registration.

Also, at least up until 1973 (maybe later, just from my own experiece) those that had them with licence etc. took them out and used them where they would not be used today. In the early 1970s the SSAA Sydeny Silverdale range was effectively closed for a couple of years because they lost the use of the dirt road to the range. We found a place about 13 miles up from the Colo river and used as a range. About 1 or 2 miles in from the road. A couple of licenced pistol shooters had 357 magnum revolver and they would take them and we shot them. They also took them away on shooting trips.

My grandfather had one unlicenced.

A property I shot on near Coonamble had a couple of smaller ones, I think 32 calibre and I still remember trying to shoot galah parrots out of trees with them. They were not licenced.

A Sydney gunsmith, the late Don Black, took pistols quite often where we shot at Colo river.

Australia from the very early 1970s and of course earlier was a different country.

I don't think that it has ever been legal here to hunt with a handgun.

They're use has always (?) been restricted to club shooting.

A few Primary Producers were licensed to carry a handgun on their property...........but the Labour government here in Qld is rapidly trying to extinguish that use.

My grandfather took his own .32 revolver to France in WWI but, according to my father, pistol ownership here was drastically curtailed in the mid-1920s, perhaps as a reaction to the possibility of a sectarian war between the Catholics and Protestants.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I think 1920s.

However, there were plenty around without licence and registration.

Also, at least up until 1973 (maybe later, just from my own experiece) those that had them with licence etc. took them out and used them where they would not be used today. In the early 1970s the SSAA Sydeny Silverdale range was effectively closed for a couple of years because they lost the use of the dirt road to the range. We found a place about 13 miles up from the Colo river and used as a range. About 1 or 2 miles in from the road. A couple of licenced pistol shooters had 357 magnum revolver and they would take them and we shot them. They also took them away on shooting trips.

My grandfather had one unlicenced.

A property I shot on near Coonamble had a couple of smaller ones, I think 32 calibre and I still remember trying to shoot galah parrots out of trees with them. They were not licenced.

A Sydney gunsmith, the late Don Black, took pistols quite often where we shot at Colo river.

Australia from the very early 1970s and of course earlier was a different country.

Thanks All. Mike do you recall whether such pistols, whilst requiring licence to purchase and use, were registered to the owner? And if so how did they transfer ownership if they sold a pistol. This could also apply up until the 1996 gun law changes or whenever things changed for pistols

From my recollection, pistols were highly restricted from 1925.
Again, from vague memory, if you wanted to sell one, the purchaser had to get all the appropriate paperwork and when this was completed and a license granted, the owner would have to take the pistol to the gunshop where the transfer was completed.

Okay but again were they registered pre-1996? As in was the Seriel no linked to that owner and if so who maintained the register? Police?

Just curious as I am wondering if it was a similar situation to long arms, aka no one knew who had what prior to 1996.

I had pistols in the late 70’s and they were registered then. I believe they have been highly regulated since the 50’s. The main restriction with handguns post the Monash Uni incident was the loss of large bore pistols and barrel length restrictions. However large bore pistols seem to be making a bit of a comeback in in most states, albeit slowly.

The NT allowed hunting with handguns for a while back in the 90’s. These days handgun hunting is still allowed in the NT, but unless things have changed, you can only use a guide’s registered pistol.

There’s also plenty of illegal pistols in circulation. Prior to their effective ban in the 20’s my understanding is that there was no registration or licensing, so when pistols were banned it was up to the owners to hand them in. I expect most probably didn’t.

Plus there have always been illegal firearms imported over the years. You ban something and people work out how to import them. A case in point was the large number of Glocks that were imported via the postal system only a few years ago.

The main reason that people handed in the freshly banned long arms post 1996 was because they were registered. In states where there was no registration the number of firearms handed in was much lower. We’re seeing that in NZ now.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
I had pistols in the late 70’s and they were registered then. I believe they have been highly regulated since the 50’s.

Thanks but registered how mate. Were the police keeping a register and managing transfers of ownership back then and how was it done. Seems to be very difficult information to ascertain.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:

Thanks but registered how mate. Were the police keeping a register and managing transfers of ownership back then and how was it done. Seems to be very difficult information to ascertain.[/QUOTE]

The process in Vic was not very different to what we have to do now. Each pistol shooter had to be licensed and each pistol registered. Both processes were administered by the police. It was and still is a process that is tightly administered by the police.

Thanks interesting to know. I'll ask some older QLD friends what the go was here

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My grandfather took his own .32 revolver to France in WWI but, according to my father, pistol ownership here was drastically curtailed in the mid-1920s, perhaps as a reaction to the possibility of a sectarian war between the Catholics and Protestants.

Actually the 1920s legislation came in after 1918 - fear of godless communist leaning Great War veterans agitating for worldwide revolution.

On the topic of Catholics, there is a correlation between the state that took Irish political prisoner convicts right up to the 1860s being the one that has always had the most stringent gun laws - don’t want propertyless Irish peasants arming themselves....

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I think 1920s.

However, there were plenty around without licence and registration.

Also, at least up until 1973 (maybe later, just from my own experiece) those that had them with licence etc. took them out and used them where they would not be used today. In the early 1970s the SSAA Sydeny Silverdale range was effectively closed for a couple of years because they lost the use of the dirt road to the range. We found a place about 13 miles up from the Colo river and used as a range. About 1 or 2 miles in from the road. A couple of licenced pistol shooters had 357 magnum revolver and they would take them and we shot them. They also took them away on shooting trips.

My grandfather had one unlicenced.

A property I shot on near Coonamble had a couple of smaller ones, I think 32 calibre and I still remember trying to shoot galah parrots out of trees with them. They were not licenced.

A Sydney gunsmith, the late Don Black, took pistols quite often where we shot at Colo river.

Australia from the very early 1970s and of course earlier was a different country.

Thanks All. Mike do you recall whether such pistols, whilst requiring licence to purchase and use, were registered to the owner? And if so how did they transfer ownership if they sold a pistol. This could also apply up until the 1996 gun law changes or whenever things changed for pistols

Karl,

The blokes I mentioned with 357 Magnums we fucked about with up from the Colo river were licensed/registered and it was for range use only. In fact I still remember shooting some of their target loads at a tree I think I could have thrown the bullet harder
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One of the blokes use to take his 357 Magnum (a Ruger from memory) away with the full power loads and among other things would shoot roos being chased in either WWII Jeep or those first Suzuki 4WD with soft top off and windscreen down. However, that was not legal. In fact I think back then you could only take the revolver to a range or a gunsmith etc. I think legally it was probably not much different to today but I am not a pistol person so I could be wrong and there maybe some differences. However, as I said above Australia in the very early 1970s and earlier was totally different country and no one gave a fuck.

One interesting one the Sydney gunsmith Don Black took to the Colo river when we went was a Derringer and from memory it was 41 calibre. However, it was a valuable thing (which he would later resell) and he made a chamber/barrel insert for it that fired 22 magnums and it was a noisy little thing with the very short barrel. Again what he was not doing was not legal and not just from the point of view of shooting it in the bush above the Colo river but the fact he had set it up to use 22 Magnum ammo.

Different country then. A property owner mate of mine at Coonamble averaged just over a 100 mph from Coonamble to Dubbo. Imagine doing that today. I had an E49 Charger and once out of Sydney on the way to Coonamble would be sitting on a 100 mph. We even organised a drag race between the E49 and a big bike, from memory a Suzuki and I think 750 cc and 3 cylinder water cooled and on the road to Warren. We measured at a 1/4 mile and it was a Sunday and all the locals turned up. Do that today and you would be on the news all week and in jail.

As a side note the bike won. However, it was a very spiky road and I was careful taking off as we had to get home in the thing. Towards the end of the quarter the car was very quickly catching the bike and all the locals noticed that as well. I think if I could have really gunned the E49 at the start it would have been close to a dead heat.

Great days that are long gone.

By the way if you ever drive a Phase III HO and especially an E49 and look at the times for 0-60 mph and standing quarter, then drive a modern car with similar times your first reaction will be ,,,, there is something wrong here … as the E49 and HO will feel a whole lot more punchy. The difference is the tyres. If we had the same tyres back in 1970-71 those cars would have posted much quicker times and that has been done plenty of times, that is, putting them on modern tyres. Two or three years ago that crown Car/Driver or whatever it called that road tests all the cars tested the then new and last GT Falcon and also and old XYGT (not an HO) on modern rubber and the XYGT did 0-100 Klm in 5.3 seconds and the quarter was from memory about 13.5. Back in 1971 the XYGT was 7 seconds for 0-96 Klm and 15 seconds for the 1/4.

Thanks Mike, interesting about the cars. Yes I remember even in the 80's as a teen, adults cruising at 120-140 on open rounds which was not a big deal. My first couple years in the army in Brisbane, a mate of mine did Cairns to Brisbane in a nissan skyline in around somewhat over 12 hours. Thats a thousand miles. He was getting it up to 200km whenever he could. Hard to believe so much has changed.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
The process in Vic was not very different to what we have to do now. Each pistol shooter had to be licensed and each pistol registered. Both processes were administered by the police. It was and still is a process that is tightly administered by the police.

That's pretty much how it was, in Vic.

As far as I can determine, this happened in 1921, with the gazetting of the Firearms Act 1921. This Act introduced licences and registration for pistols, and also Gun Dealer Licences, for sellers of firearms other than shotguns, air guns and air rifles.
Available on austlii; https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi.../hist_act/fa1921102/

The only earlier Vic general legislative restrictions, on ownership of firearms, I can find were in the Police Offences Act 1915, which were concerned with prohibiting possession or use of 'pea-rifles and saloon guns' and their ammo, by under-18's. Except possibly as a customer in a shooting gallery. S205-212; https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi...hist_act/poa1915140/

There were also broad provisions in the 'Game Act' of that time, for seizure of 'swivel or punt guns' by Inspectors appointed under that Act. http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi...c/hist_act/ga191543/

The pistol restrictions applied to all pistols with a barrel length of 9" or less. Including muzzleloaders and cap and ball revolvers.

So as has been said above, quite a lot of them weren't registered by their owners at that time, just stashed away. Particularly in gold-mining areas. They still surface occasionally, usually during old building demolitions.

An old mate of mine [who died several years back] inherited three never-registered Colt cartridge revolvers when his old man died in 1939, that came into Oz with the old boy in around 1902. He never put them on the register either, though two of them did end up in the hands of collectors AFAIK, via amnesty transfers...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
Okay but again were they registered pre-1996? As in was the Seriel no linked to that owner and if so who maintained the register? Police?

Just curious as I am wondering if it was a similar situation to long arms, aka no one knew who had what prior to 1996.

Short answer: Yes. Since around 1925-26 in most states.