.375 350 gr. PP Weldcore Woodleigh Bullets - Are they good for buffalo? Can you shoot them at starting velocities of 2700 fps and still get good results on buffalo? AIU

They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet.

I posed essentially the same question to Nosler Bullets regarding their 300 ACCUBOND bullet - that is, I asked do you foresee any problems using the ACCUBOND bullet for Cape buffalo even when fired at 2900 fps. 200 fps more than what I propose firing the Woodleigh. They answered..."it would be fine, except the buffalo would not like it." Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

I'd like to call Woodleigh, but they don't repond to email or phone calls. Any ideas how to contact them? AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

They do; see quote from their website below. Keep in mind that these are impact velocities; 2700fps muzzle velocity would be fine.

quote:

Woodleigh now have recommended impact velocities for all our soft nose bullets. These are listed on our website and printed on the new bullet boxes. We recommend a range of impact velocities for each bullet which will give reliable expansion and optimum retained weight.

These recommended impact velocities were arrived at after exhaustive field testing on various game. If loading to higher than the recommended velocity you may still get excellent results but it is our experience that driving the bullet within our ranges will give a more predictable result.

Contact details are as on their website; http://www.woodleighbullets.co...ce/contact-woodleigh

Keep in mind that their phone will only be attended during local business hours, not 24/7.
Time zone here is UTC+10.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet.

I posed essentially the same question to Nosler Bullets regarding their 300 ACCUBOND bullet - that is, I asked do you foresee any problems using the ACCUBOND bullet for Cape buffalo even when fired at 2900 fps. 200 fps more than what I propose firing the Woodleigh. They answered..."it would be fine, except the buffalo would not like it." Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

That may be the case but I would NOT use an Accubond let alone a Partition on Buffalo.
Swift A Frames, Norfork and Barnes X even at the mild velocity's of a 9.3x62 let alone a 375Mag. Jmo though.

Iwould leave the accubond at home for buff, but would not hesitate to use the Parition...the "new" N P have had the partitions moved foward as have the 416 partitions
If you run the Woodleighs at to high a velocity they will just pancake out...i dont know if you will gain anything by useing the 350 gn over the 300...

M98, have you actually had either of these bullets (WL or AB) PANCAKE on you? Please tell the story. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
Iwould leave the accubond at home for buff, but would not hesitate to use the Parition...the "new" N P have had the partitions moved foward as have the 416 partitions
If you run the Woodleighs at to high a velocity they will just pancake out...i dont know if you will gain anything by useing the 350 gn over the 300...

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet.

I posed essentially the same question to Nosler Bullets regarding their 300 ACCUBOND bullet - that is, I asked do you foresee any problems using the ACCUBOND bullet for Cape buffalo even when fired at 2900 fps. 200 fps more than what I propose firing the Woodleigh. They answered..."it would be fine, except the buffalo would not like it." Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

The 350gn were designed for Buffalo.


Woodleigh have absolute confidence in the bullets to work as designed within the parameters they were designed for.

The Recommended Impact Velocities are determined by pumping heaps of bullets at a range of velocities
to determine where the cut off points are.

That is not to say they don't work outside that, but you have to be able to tell people where to work with them.

And as for pancaking, never had one pancake and I did the testing on the 9.3 PP's out of a 9.3x64 (so we could get the high velocities) which was probably 40 shots into Buffalo and have probably put 100 375H&H into buffalo at various speeds.

Their is a shooter in the US who shoots them at longer range way over the RIV and they work for him. But he knows that what he is doing is outside the RIV.

.

AIU
i have shot the woodleigh s in my 06, but i was playing around with them more then anything else, but i think you would have seen ample woodleghs on AR that have expanded to much, ....right down to there bases....a few in 50 cal, and down through to the 375 cal...i think thats enough evedence to tell one there are issues if there driven to fast
What im saying is that the woodleighs do over expand, when fired outside there velocity window....

500N, could you give us some more detail, for example how fast did you shoot those PPs into buffalo and what happened? Which PPs did you shoot? Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
500N, could you give us some more detail, for example how fast did you shoot those PPs into buffalo and what happened? Which PPs did you shoot? Regards, AIU

I'll have to pull out the load data sheet - which is somewhere else.
I did the initial load development at the range to work out what the absolute maximum I could safely get (velocity wise) without pressure signs.

286 gn and 320gn PP's - and compared to the RN's which I also had
with me as a direct comparison.

The Heavy bullets sure do penetrate - getting recoveries at one stage was
becoming a problem as the 320gns would exit on a lot of shots. I became very selective in bullet placement - to the extent of making sure one missed the leg bone while one hit it so we could see what happened.

IMHO, one thing with the PP's is they do need some velocity to open up unless they hit something solid or a good mass of muscle etc.

500N, it great to be talking to somebody with actual experience with these specific bullets. I love the 350 gr. PPs. I can't believe they're going to fail at the following velocities with a starting muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. The average Cape buffalo is shot at ~60 yds (I've read), and by that time the bullet has slowed to 2567 fps and at a 100 yds it's only traveling 2481 fps. Your thoughts? Regards, AIU

yds.- fps
00 -2700
10 -2678
20 -2655
30 -2633
40 -2611
50 -2589
60 -2567
70 -2545
80 -2524
90 -2502
100 -2481

Velocity sure does drop off the 350gns quickly - which is known but it was never intended to be a long range bullet !!!


I just had a look at the Woodleigh Web site to check the RIV. Their must be a reason Geoff put 2400fps as nearly all the bullets have been tested on game.

I wouldn't like to speculate as it's easy to get the answer from the horses mouth.

I would suggest you fire off a quick email to them and ask. I might give him a call today myself and ask as I would be interested to know, not that I have anything that would be able to launch a 350gn at that speed.

BTW - What calibre are you using ?


I have had some pretty ugly bullets come out at various times but can't remember having them pancake to the base at all in any calibre. Very open, large diameter yes, but the guilding metal is pretty thick after the cannelure / at the base of the bullets.

I also don't count firing bullets into sand banks / clay as a viable or reliable test medium. I destroyed a 600gn PP 505 Bullet firing into a bank at 20 feet but considering I had just spent a week killing quite a few buffalo and saw them work perfectly, it was a non issue.

500N, I'm using a 375 H&H Ackley Improved (aka., 375 Weatherby) with a 26.5" barrel, 93 grs. of Norma MRP, 2705 fps at the muzzle with the 350 gr. PP Weldcore, 1 MOA accuracy. AIU.

If you ask Geoff re the 350gns and the 375Wby, I know at one stage he was looking for a 375 Wby for testing - due of course to it's ability to push the bullets faster than we ever could out of our 375H&H's.

Now whether he actually got to use one or had to go to a 378Wby, not sure.

.

AIU

Geoff will be sending you an email reply in the next day or so.


I can't see the need to push them at 2700fps. I never noticed a difference in the 9.3 bullets at full speed or slow speed and a lot of Buffalo died that week. I found Bullet placement was the more critical factor.

I also found the kick from the gun harder, recovery and reload longer to do at the higher velocities. Now part of this is due to my 9.3 being a very light gun but it fits me well and
is still comfortable to shoot even at higher velocities but for others this may not be so.

The other thing is at over speeds, the bullets open up more and in some cases penetrate LESS.

In addition, what happens if you get a shot at 20 yards instead of 60 or 100 yards ?

Anyway, hope that helps and look forward to continuing the discussion.

.

500N,

I look forward to hearing from Geoff again. I've already exchanged one email, but had some follow-up questions, to which he has not yet responded. I look forward to his response.

Of interest, today I had a 2 hour phone conversation with William D. Steigers, the founder of Bitter Root bullets. He's retired and Bitter Root bullets are no longer made. But, what a fascinating fellow, very knowledgable. He also used to be the chief ballistician for Speer bullets and put together the first 6 editions of the Speer reloading manual. We talked bullets, bullets, bullets...I learned a ton. His design is very similar to the Woodleigh PP, but with thicker all copper jackets. He tested his bullets extensively and, like Nosler, he had no upper velocity limit. In fact, the Weatherby crowd load'im hot and shoot dangerous game without failures, so far as he knew. Deep penetration, perfect mushrooms, no pancaking, etc.

Regards, AIU

I THINK Bitter root were the first bonded core bullets ?

One company in the US was anyway as I asked geoff how he came up with bonded core but he said someone had already done bonding earlier in the US and I think it was him.

I think some of these bullet compaies do more testing now than they did previously as they have expanded into higher peformance bullets. That's just my HO.

We are lucky here in Aust as we have heaps of game to shoot and test bullets on - Pigs, Buffalo, Scrub Bulls, Horses, Donkey's (and deer to an extent although not in Quantity) and of course Kangaroos under cull license (upper and lower bodies are vastly different - the top half is like a light deer, bottom half solid muscle and a big bone).

Anyway, look forward to continuing the discussion.

500N, Bill may have been the first to produce commercially available "modern" bonded hunting bullets, but he said the process was developed back in the 1880's - maybe a German. He said he did not invent the process. Bill is from Lewiston, Idaho - home of Jack O'Conner, whom he knew very well. Bill is 84 y/o. Regards, AIU

Yes, I am pretty sure that's him then.


Anyway, slow your bullets down a bit and you'll be fine !!! LOL

.

500N, IMO Geoff should correct the design flaw in his PP bullets. They should be able to function at these velocities. The 350 gr. 375 PP Weldcore is a beautiful bullet. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
500N, IMO Geoff should correct the design flaw in his PP bullets. They should be able to function at these velocities. The 350 gr. 375 PP Weldcore is a beautiful bullet. Regards, AIU

I THINK his thoughts are - and you might ask him why he has them at this RIV to get it from him - is that it is the preferred speed for Buffalo and what most are shot at.


Their are people out there that shoot Woodleigh's way over the top in terms of velocity - one guy in the US in particular i have met a number of times - and they work for him but he knows what he is doing is outside the norm. Admittedly, his shots are longer range but he has taken closer shots as well.


Did you get the email reply you were expecting from Geoff ?

.

500N, Geoff did respond to my emails and he was very polite and informative, although he stuck to the party line and didn't get into much detail. He must get hundreds of emails - I'm surprised he gets to respond at all.

I can't emphasize how much I love the design of that 350 grain PP Weldcore bullet - it's accurate and perfect in the protected point design and ogive. But, apparently it's jacket in the lower half could be thicker. Both Nosler and Steigers mentioned this, as the likely cause of the restricted velocity impact envelope.

I wish I could go out and shoot 10 Cape buffalo with the 350 PP. I'd enjoy returning to the forum with a report. I bet it would be a positive report.

On another note I did manage to acquire one hundred 300 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws - another good looking bullet. I hope it shoots in my gun. It has no upper limit on impact velocity. Also, I have 60 275 gr. Bitter Roots to test. If I like them, I think I have a way to get some 300 grainers.

I've extensively tested the 300 Swift A-frame. I find it stiff and erratic in performance and PSI generation - even unsafe in warm to hot loads. The 300 Nosler partition, although acceptable, is not very accurate in my gun.

Velocity is important, because I believe in maximizing penetration and hydroshock for quick humane kills.

Regards, AIU

Re "although he stuck to the party line", I would since they are really tested in the field otherwise no point in having a RIV.

What I have notied is that with bigger, heavier bullets (for calibre), they have no problem penetrating. I think the 350gn would just go on and on.

In regards to velocity, sometimes it can work against you - opening up faster, more frontal area etc. However I can't remember even 300gn 375's not penetrating a long way.


Interesting what you say re the Swift A Frame.
It used to be the standard that people judged against - opened up, bulge in the middle but lately have seen a few reports like yours where people not that fond of them.

Have not used them myself although we fired a few 416's into a Buffalo (I think the guy picked neck shots so as to hit the hard spine) at about 20 metres to test against the exact same shot using some Woodleigh 416's when Geoff toughened up the jackets on the 416's.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
500N, it great to be talking to somebody with actual experience with these specific bullets. I love the 350 gr. PPs. I can't believe they're going to fail at the following velocities with a starting muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. The average Cape buffalo is shot at ~60 yds (I've read), and by that time the bullet has slowed to 2567 fps and at a 100 yds it's only traveling 2481 fps. Your thoughts? Regards, AIU

yds.- fps
00 -2700
10 -2678
20 -2655
30 -2633
40 -2611
50 -2589
60 -2567
70 -2545
80 -2524
90 -2502
100 -2481

500N, I'm going to go ahead and use the 350 PP Weldcore at a starting velocity of 2700 fps, if the shot is right. I believe they will work. I'm not that far over the RIV.

AIU

Are you able to test them on something else before you go ?

I know it can be hard but not sure of your location since it isn't shown.

Anyway, good luck with your hunt.

500N, nobody has come forth in our discussion (here or in the Africa Hunting forum) with ACTUAL DATA, wherein the 350 gr. PP was fired into a buffalo or other game animal having a impact velocity of ~2600 fps. Has this been done specifically with this bullet? AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
500N, nobody has come forth in our discussion (here or in the Africa Hunting forum) with ACTUAL DATA, wherein the 350 gr. PP was fired into a buffalo or other game animal having a impact velocity of ~2600 fps. Has this been done specifically with this bullet? AIU

I don't know.

Considering the RIV is up to 2500 fps, I think you'll be OK. You are not that much over at the muzzle and by the time it goes out a bit ....... you know what I mean.

When I've fired Woodleigh's "over speed" or very close up to animals, then you get a bit more opening up ? over expansion ? but never had any drastic failures.

And that includes the 9.3 bullets which I really did pump in at higher speeds.


You mentioned the jacket "it's jacket in the lower half could be thicker", Geoff would have designed the bullet to do XYZ, of course it could be designed with a thicker jacket for a higher RIV but in reality, how many people out there are really going to push it that fast.

Not many I think.

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500N, below is a perloined article about bullets for Africa by Pierre Van Der Walt. Read what he has to say about Woodleigh bullets - kind of insulting.

Bullets For Africa
'Bullets For Africa' by Pierre Van Der Walt
The easiest way for me to structure bullet application is to divide bullets into a number of classes. Insofar as it concerns the modern hunting bullet I categorize bullets in three groups, namely:

4th Generation Bullets:
Traditional bullets with a lead, nickel and antimony alloy core wrapped in a gilding metal or zinc jacket. These can be soft points or solids. Typical examples are Hornady, Sierra and Speer.

5th Generation Bullets:
Essentially 4th Generation bullets but with some features to improve terminal performance. This improvement feature can be a partition, a solid base or core bonding and these are often referred to as ‘premium’ bullets. Typical examples are North Fork, Swift-A Frame and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. There also is the excellent South African Rhino bullet.

6th Generation Bullets:
Bullets made from a single metal or alloy such as copper or marine brass. Quality examples are those manufactured by Barnes (X-Bullet) and the South African GS Custom versions.

4TH GENERATION BULLETS
These bullets have worked for generations and are quite suited to smaller African plains game hunting. By smaller I refer to species lighter than kudu. It does not mean that these bullets suddenly fail when you shoot something bigger, but large animals like giraffe have surprizingly thick skins and I am simply erring on the safe side here.

The advantage of 4th Generation bullets are that they are relatively affordable and therefore excellent for initial load development, sighting and practice. They also perform satisfactory at moderate, or so-called Green Band impact velocities. The Green-Band is an impact velocity range between 2,600 fps and 2,200 fps and if a 4th Generation bullet impacts a soft skinned plains game animal within this velocity spectrum, it generally performs quite well. The faster impact velocities go above 2,600 fps, the more the 4th Generation bullets tend to fragment or lose weight upon impact and the sturdier the animal is, the more likely it becomes. The slower they go below 2,200 fps, the poorer the expansion.

5TH GENERATION BULLETS
As the velocity and kinetic energy crazes took hold, hunters found that 4th Generation bullets did not hold up at high impact velocity. They did however feel the need to dispense high doses of kinetic energy in the belief that it equates to killing power and they wanted high velocity for the convenience of flat trajectories. Africa lags behind in this as our shooting ranges generally are surprisingly short on most species. There are a few exceptions of course. The only way to counter bullet fragmentation at high impact velocities was to make sturdier bullets. Initially this was only done by making the jackets thicker and it worked to some extent, but then men like Bill Steigers (Bitterroot) popularized the fusing of core and jacket through core bonding. Other designers like Fred Barnes and John Nosler tinkered with the solid base concept. The latter eventually settled on the partition. Other designers went further and incorporated several features such as partitions, solid bases and the like with core bonding. The results were bullets that perform best at considerably higher impact velocities than 4th Generation bullets. They have to a large extent become the state of the art and the norm for high velocity cartridges in the African game fields.

A word of caution here. A bullet is not a quality bullet or a premium bullet simply because it sports any or several of these features. A bullet is only a quality bullet if it is designed and manufactured to be a quality bullet without these additional features. Core bonding for example only helps to hold an otherwise quality bullet together.

There also are misconceptions in that once a bullet contains a premium feature such as core bonding, it can automatically withstand high impact velocity.

Nothing is further from the truth.

A great example is the excellent Australian-made Woodleigh. These are bonded core bullets, but their design is purpose specific. In most instances they are shaped to duplicate regulation in double rifles and the jacket designed to offer maximum expansion at old express rifle velocities. The bonded core is just a great bonus preventing core and jacket separation. Woodleigh clearly states the recommended impact velocities for its bullets on its website and it is a fact of life that those bullets perform marvelously when applied accordingly. You will be disappointed if you apply them differently.

American bonded core bullets such as the Bitterroots, North Forks and Swift A-Frames generally are designed for use in American high velocity bolt action cartridges and consequently to only expand optimally at much higher velocity. If you put them into animals at snail’s pace, you may be disappointed with expansion and target trauma. The South African made Rhino bullets are generally made more carridge specific and because they are not only bonded core, but also of solid base configuration, expansion is halted at a given level. They can therefore be made to expand at moderate impact velocity without over expanding at very high velocities. Their bonded core component also prevents fragmentation and weight loss. They are excellent terminal performers.

Bullets in this class generally perform best at impact velocities in excess of 2,600 fps and often even in excess of 3,000 fps. These bullets are very well suited to the larger soft skinned plains game species such as eland, zebra, giraffe, sable and roan. These softs also perform very well on all dangerous game bar elephant for which only solids are recommended.

One important difference to take note of is that some of these bullets are made to expand into petals. An example is the Rhino, while the others mentioned expand into a solid mushroom. It is a matter of personal preference as I can honestly not say a difference is measurable, but I apply them differently. The petal type offers deep penetration and the solid type massive trauma and tissue displacement. For that reason I like the petal type for animals such as buffalo and eland where penetration can be an issue of secondary shots are required, whereas I prefer the solid mushroom type for maximum effect on the sensitive nervous systems of the cats.

6TH GENERATION BULLETS
Although they are a higher numbered generation it is a consequence of their introduction time line rather than superiority over earlier designs.

I was not impressed with the early monometal solids as I found the reloading disadvantages disproportionate to any other benefits. I disliked the excessive barrel fouling. In my experience they also shed their petals at velocities in excess of 2,700 fps. Very often, due to the limited expansion they remained very long during the terminal phase and therefore prone to flipping over and traveling base first. Flipping over or tumbling of any bullet very often results in crooked penetration. It is not all that important in a small animal as it has generally passed the vitals and done the damage by then, but on big animals that may not be the case and it can result in wounding despite proper shot placement.

The leader in resolving the shortcomings of monometal expanders undoubtedly is GS Custom in South Africa. This firm overcame the propensity to pressure spiking upon the bullet hitting the rifling by making the bullet shank approximately bore size, leaving artillery style narrow driving bands of near groove size on the shank to seal the barrel. This approach required very little engraving and material displacement and ‘softened’ the engagement between bullet and rifling – largely eliminating the monometal bullet propensity to give pressure spikes. Since it also created a lot of space for the bullet metal dispplaced by the rifling to flow into, barrel fouling was considerably reduced.

Other makers such as Barnes adopted a similar concept, but simply cut grooves into the bullet shank to provide space for displaced material. The result effectively is the same and today expanding monometal bullets are excellent and can be used with confidence on any African game bar elephant.

Some double rifle manufacturers apparently warn against the use of monometal bullets in double rifles. I would go with heeding that as far as old style, smooth shank monometal bullets are concerned. I am not convinced that it should be the case with the more modern driving band or grooved shank bullets are concerned, but I have to add an important rider. A lot of dimensional variation exists in the barrels of older doubles in particular. Some are larger in bore and groove diameter than one expects them to be, while others are smaller. If full sized monometal bullets are fired in an undersize barrel, disaster is sure to follow. So, before you fire any such bullets in your beloved double, make sure you have the barrels slugged. If they are undersize – stay away from monometal bullets.

About Pierre van der Walt:

An ex Captain in the SA military, a qualified professional hunter, conservation lawyer, firearm and hunting lobbyist, rifle handgun shotgun and assault rifle instructor, one of the most accoladed gunwriters in Africa, ad hoc lecturer at Professional Hunting academies and post-graduate wildlife management schools. Conceiver and organiser of the official South African firearm and hunting expo. Founding editor of Safari Times Africa, PHASA News and the Big Bore Journal publications. Leading big bore reloading expert. Author of 'International Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection' and 'African Dangerous Game Cartridges'.

Interesting article, thanks for posting.

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Sorry for the late reply, but...

Hell, yes! They are good for buffalo! A mate of mine runs these out of his .375H&H for everything, including buffalo.