Admin guru and all round good Guy, Don, asked me a question about another product on the Mods forum. I took the question to the gents over on AHN and in some of the replies, this link was posted. I think it looks pretty good so I thought I'd post it here. What do you guys think? As a guy with a 4X4 and no winch, it looks like a good thing.

http://www.bogout.com/about-us

Sounds good. My old Tirfor is really made for a vehicle two-thirds the weight of my present one, so maybe I should get some Bog Outs. Also, the Tirfor and cable is pretty heavy; power winches are even worse and get carted around town for weeks, sucking up juice.

How much do these things weigh? After reading the FAQs, can anyone think of a problem beyond salvaging trucks that won't start?

Fine for a bog where solid ground is achieved within 4.5M max.
how do you go about resetting the bog out to move more than 4.5M............its wrapped around your tyres.
jack up vehicle to unwrap???..........spin tyres in reverse on the spot (sand/mud) ??? ........if its not solid ground jacking is no fun.

Fighting an offcentre vehicle towpoint in slippery /soft ground is no fun.
two Bogouts makes sense theoretically , but are the fixture points in the scrub etc going to be aligned with the stars to keep bogouts on both wheels lined up ????

Sounds like a simple lightweight system that might work in quite a few situations ......smaller scale bogs ........but maybe not all situations...........or user friendly in larger scale situations.

Many moons ago with a series 1 Landy I made a 6" dia niggerhead drum to attach with wheelnuts (3) it was difficult to keep on track with one , but worked great with 2 niggerheads & a single rope with a yoke. the tyres themselves kept the angled yoke of rope aligned onto the drums . ended up a bulky system but worked when the chips were down .

6" dia niggerhead drums out of pipe fitted over the front hubs.
I dunno , 2bogouts might be more bulky & heavier than 2 wheelnut niggerheads in Aluminium & some rope.......need the same rope to anchor the bogouts anyway.
methinks niggerheads are more userfriendly than bogouts in larger scale & certainly multiplies engine torque x factor of around 5 compared to bogouts

The clutch limit is the clutch limit irrespective of the number of bogouts. niggerheads enable a genuine torque increase in real pulling power.
the example in the bogout advertising re- increased power is an increase in bogout strength.........not any increase in real pulling power .........the clutch limit is the clutch limit etc etc.
the downside with wheelnut niggerheads is that you spin the tyres pulling them thru the soft stuff rather than pulling them over it with bogouts.
In this world everything has a compromise somewhere , nothing is perfect in every aspect.

FWIW

http://www.bushwinch.com/

Are you talking about something like this Denis?

Yes
those in the link are quite stylish
mine were DIY & smaller diameter.
same concept.

Man, that's slick, now I've got something else to build in the shop. Never run out of great ideas for "Toys for big Boys".

Denis, ever break off the lugs?

Thanks,
George

Thanks guys, yes, those politically incorrect heads look as though they might have some advantages. The BO FAQs do tackle the problem of needing to go longer distances: either link two together ahead of one wheel or undo the rope-end anchor and peel a loop of the ladder sideways off the wheel and re-anchor.

If I were using two (on separate wheels) in bush country, I'd use a long rope for the RH(?) wheel and tie it to a tree farther up the track, hoping to keep the ladders parallel.

The Bush Winch would cost at least twice as much, though, and with the front wheel guide attachment, probably weighs as much again, too.

I wonder about the difference between the BW hub and tyre speeds as well - as soon as the wheel gains any traction the hub windlass will fail to keep up, losing tension and leaving rope lying around in inconvenient places. This probably doesn't matter much in bogs but could give trouble on steep, rocky tracks.

Changing the wheel nuts sounds like a pain, too.

Thinking of the Bog Out again, it's a wonder they haven't offered chains as the first few cross linkages. These would add weight, of course, but would act like ... chains.

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:

Denis, ever break off the lugs?

No George, no breakages.
I used just 3 of the wheelnuts & simply drilled out a hole in the base plate to fit over the others.

If worried you can obviously use all of the wheelnuts , just takes longer to fit when needed.

these types of winching solutions are not meant for situations of regular driving in extreme locations, in those situations a good electric or power takeoff winch are far more suitable.
The demountable types are a very good solution where the driving in risky offroad situations is occasional & the equipment is packed along with the camping/hunting gear, just in case its needed, & not carted around as a permanent fixture

No comment on the cost of either the Bush Winch or BogOut as I'm a DIY 'tragic' & would make either solution I preferred, neither is particularly technically difficult.

He He
Ive used the wheelhub system on a rearhub with wheel removed to coldbend 12mm & 16mm 316 Stainless rod into rings, making a spiral on the 6" 'hub' running the rod over a hardwood slab with a groove in it.
I got the feeling that the 16mm was close to clutch limit

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:

Denis, ever break off the lugs?

No comment on the cost of either the Bush Winch or BogOut as I'm a DIY 'tragic' & would make either solution I preferred, neither is particularly technically difficult.

I've thought about whether one could make his own Bog Out set-up cheaper. Apart from violating their patent, I'm inclined to think it not such a great idea because splicing the ropes and underestimating the stress requirements might get me into trouble. On the BW concept an idea has occurred to me, however: get a bare rim and fix a strong rope inside somehow. Then, if you get stuck, replace a wheel with the spare rim and tie the rope to a tree ...

Re patents.
I believe they apply to commercial applications. where similar concepts are used to create equipment for own use an infringement situation does not exist. Make it for someone else (financial transaction or not) & the situation becomes riskier.

yes, possession of the required skillset is a strong determinant of the success of DIY projects.

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Re patents.
I believe they apply to commercial applications. where similar concepts are used to create equipment for own use an infringement situation does not exist. Make it for someone else (financial transaction or not) & the situation becomes riskier.

yes, possession of the required skillset is a strong determinant of the success of DIY projects.

That's interesting, Denis, and with Big Pharma trying to horn in on God's inventions , it surprises me there is any limit on mercantile greed. Certainly, an inventor would think twice about suing some man of straw who copied the product for his own use, even if knowledge of it did get out.

As a sometime inventor, I have so far resisted patenting anything that the punters could make easily for themselves at home.

I moderate a fishing website based in the US on luremaking & rodbuilding , whilst contributing in other areas.
the legalities of 'cloning' commercial lure designs has been heavily discussed, both DIY & commercial, as has the issues of personal designs being copied & marketed commercially.
As someone who has undertaken extensive research into the physical parameters influencing the dynamic of lure action & the engineering parameters & their relationship in fishing rod design, having published works on both subjects.............patent law is actually not much help & is limited to basically 16 yrs "protection"..........where applicable its much more protection to achieve registered design protection for the item, as registered designs can be renewed after the initial registration period.
Its an interesting subject , but beyond the intent of the thread content.

Thanks again, Denis,
I'm inclined to think patents only make sense for big companies who invent some widget in-house and intend to and do make it themselves. This works practically and egotistically for them but rarely for the private inventor. If a company invents and patents something itself, it has a greater incentive to make the product - to get its money back.

As to the Bog Out, if one of my mates is interested in buying a double kit, I might give it a try. Each of us could keep half of it, combining them if needed on trips.

As suggested, I bought a double kit and split it with a mate. It looks good so far and they even sent me some free straps because I suggested a complementary idea that could make it even more useful. That's still in the experimental stage, so I won't go into it at the moment.

Let us know how it goes in the slippery stuff.
Interested how diff types influences the effectiveness of a single bogout.
ie
limited slip vs unlimited epicyclic .
Would not expect significant problems if used with diff lockers.

Most serious OEM 4WD these days are limited slip rear & unlimited front ( a/c significant difference in turning radius of front wheels in corners etc ).
In that situation getting power to the wheel with the bogout is likely less of a problem rearwards than forwards methinks.

Thanks Denis,
with luck I'll never need to use it, in which case the only gain will be fuel saved not carrying around the turfer and its heavy cable.

I notice in the booklet that because the Bog Out ropes locate down the sides of the tyres, it shares with the Bushwinch the problem of losing tension as soon as the wheels gain traction. Were I the maker, I would consider adding a rung-material tape down the centre to counteract this.

My Suzuki has diff locks. I would prefer to drive forward, not only because that's where I wanted to go but following line of the ladder should be easier.

You have it covered with diff locks.

what is your mate's situation diff wise ..........with the other half of the pair. ??

Turfer or winch should sort you out. I once had to use the car seat belts in a similar way to the Bog Out. It worked fine as long as you could keep the belt on the tire. An inch is a mile in the mud.

Well, Denis, my mate has a 15-year-old Landcruiser, which I imagine has diff locks, too.

I will still carry the old Tirfor, fairgame, if I see something tricky coming up - but hope to save the weight of it otherwise. Also, it is only the 750 (indicating Kgs?). I bought it 35 years ago to use with my humble Subaru 1800, which only weighed a tonne. The Suzuki weighs 1600 kg unloaded, so, even if used with a snatchblock, my winch would be marginal on any slope.