Hey I understand all this - I just dont see why guides would be knocking back cash tips from visiting hunters??? The HUNTERS themselves most often see it as the norm, so why shouldnt they?? Most good outfitters make it clear about tipping while traveling through the South Pacific.

In the African forum the tipping topic comes up time and again and it seems in the African hunting scene its fairly well expected. My problem is should I be lucky enough to hunt in Africa I just wouldn't be able to afford any extra cash, every dollar counts with me. I have no doubt that most guides work their arse off and if I feel they went above and beyond then I would try to tip something. I don't think it should be discussed before hand however.

Matt, I would politely disagree that tipping is the norm in NZ hunting circles. It might be a norm for US clients to offer a tip because of their cultural values of etiquette etc. and they may not want to offend. It is a sad day when Kiwi guides say that a tip is the norm for them.

My reference earlier to a law was tongue in cheek. But seriously, why do NZ outfitter not say straight out that we do not have a practice of tipping in NZ and that the rates include a fair wage to the guides? I can understand a guide accepting a tip when it is offered, but it can become a habit where it becomes an expectation from the next client...and so on.

I hunted with Highlander 15 years ago and remember that he did not NEED or expect tips. He used to ski in Europe in the off season & hunt in NZ during our autumn / winter. Now he is a family man & a reputed guide / outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt, I would politely disagree that tipping is the norm in NZ hunting circles. It might be a norm for US clients to offer a tip because of their cultural values of etiquette etc. and they may not want to offend. It is a sad day when Kiwi guides say that a tip is the norm for them.


My reference earlier to a law was tongue in cheek. But seriously, why do NZ outfitter not say straight out that we do not have a practice of tipping in NZ and that the rates include a fair wage to the guides? I can understand a guide accepting a tip when it is offered, but it can become a habit where it becomes an expectation from the next client...and so on.

I hunted with Highlander 15 years ago and remember that he did not NEED or expect tips. He used to ski in Europe in the off season & hunt in NZ during our autumn / winter. Now he is a family man & a reputed guide / outfitter.

Naki you beat me to it, and you have put this very well. As you say, we all have the option of turning down any offer of a tip or better still making it quite plain to any overseas visitor that it is not in our culture to tip. In fact I for one find it insulting to my own nature if I am offered money for something I have done for someone, like a favour etc.

Anyone accepting tips in NZ or OZ is only helping to spread the practice. We should have the fortitude of character to politely say NO!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt, I would politely disagree that tipping is the norm in NZ hunting circles. It might be a norm for US clients to offer a tip because of their cultural values of etiquette etc. and they may not want to offend. It is a sad day when Kiwi guides say that a tip is the norm for them.

My reference earlier to a law was tongue in cheek. But seriously, why do NZ outfitter not say straight out that we do not have a practice of tipping in NZ and that the rates include a fair wage to the guides? I can understand a guide accepting a tip when it is offered, but it can become a habit where it becomes an expectation from the next client...and so on.

I hunted with Highlander 15 years ago and remember that he did not NEED or expect tips. He used to ski in Europe in the off season & hunt in NZ during our autumn / winter. Now he is a family man & a reputed guide / outfitter.

I didnt indicate all NZ hunting circles at all, just the ones in the international market, hiring professional contractors.

Why would an outfitter tell an international client NOT to tip staff?? That would be dumb and the staff would quit if they found out!! But its Ok for them to accept a tip if its offered eh??? Im confused!!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We should have the fortitude of character to politely say NO!

Most guides I know will generally say something like 'that isnt really neccessary', especially outfitter but clients will insist and who the fuck wants to stand around arguing about money???

Are you a professional guide??

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
We should have the fortitude of character to politely say NO!

Most guides I know will generally say something like 'that isnt really neccessary', especially outfitter but clients will insist and who the fuck wants to stand around arguing about money???

Are you a professional guide??

No Matt I am not a professional guide although I have taken many visitors from overseas out successfully hunting in the Alps for chamois, tahr and red deer without payment. Obviously we do not have to pay for access to our hunting areas or any fees for animals so other than transport and food there are no other costs involved.

Although tips are supposedly an expression of gratitude for a service well done which I'm sure in many cases is true, this practice has originated and been spread from a country that has another reputation for a practice that is only a step away from tipping, and that is graft (backhanders). The wallet speaks louder than words.

Many of us work in positions where tipping and backhanders would be almost indistinguishable. In many countries both these practices are just an accepted way of life but is does not make them morally right.

Thankfully both NZ and OZ have to a large extent avoided these practices in business and pleasure. Perhaps I am being a little naive but I'm disappointed to hear you say they are common place in your industry both in your own country and mine. I hoped the hunting fraternity might have been above that.

As for your comment on "who the fuck wants to stand around arguing about money" that's just my point. It's easy to just accept it, and thats exactly the excuse we usually hear from those caught taking backhanders. The flashing of the wallet buys anything.

The very reason we see in NZ where certain entities want to lock away some of our wilderness areas for their own personal gain.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:



Anyone accepting tips in NZ or OZ is only helping to spread the practice. We should have the fortitude of character to politely say NO!

That fortitude of character could at times be undermined by the size of the tip proffered by some of the very wealthy visitors.

I would suggest a backhander/bride is generally paid before the service is provided but a tip is paid afterward - very different.

Gryphon - those type of clients may well be extra demanding too!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

Gryphon - those type of clients may well be extra demanding too!!

Tell us about a few of them Matty!

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

Gryphon - those type of clients may well be extra demanding too!!

Tell us about a few of them Matty!

Nothing too silly... One of my good clients made my brother drive into town (4 hr round trip to Katherine) to buy crumpets and double thick cream. HAD to be King Island double cream.... Just lots of silly stuff like that... Spend a lot of time on the sat phone trying to change peoples flights (rolls eyes). They like to change everything at the last minute!!!

When I took a shoestring NZ hunt in '78, the guide's son took me on the South Island part of it. This son was kind of indigent, only got to go hunting when someone gave him a lift and may not have been paid by dad. He admired my humble binoculars, saying they weren't available there, and asked if I would sell them to him - he would send the money as soon as he could. I never did see the money, so I guess he got a fair tip.

Since going to America I've tended to tip in cafes and taxis, despite an aggressive demand from a NY waiter who had served me burnt food and had the hide to defend it. If nothing else, leaving money on tables is one way an old man can get smiles from young ladies.

BTW Matt, if the customer is always right and AR
readers were my market, I'd take it easy.

Well Matty you have just been chided old son haha

As im only a peasant trying to get as much hunting mileage out of a dollar as possible it is a pain in the arse when you have to start factoring in "gratuities" to the cost of things

Where in hell did you get King Island double cream in KATHERINE

Thank you Matt , keep up the good work !!

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
Where in hell did you get King Island double cream in KATHERINE

God knows... but he got it.. and the crumpets + I think it was boysenberry jam, if my memory is correct.

You musta had a good sheila in the camp to go and do that cobber!

Hid he eat a scrumpet with cream & boysonberry jam?

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Never not appreciated a tip. True it may not be part of our culture(which only grows in a petre dish by the way)BUT it is very much part of our clients culture and if I'm asked I always instructed my clients to tip my guides. The outfitter not so much, as we are making our mark up. Guides aren't paid big money for the effort and hours they put in and 10-15% tips on $200 -250 a day are always appreciated, and make sure you give it to your guide in person.
Welcome to the global economy.
enjoy your hunt and visit to our beautiful country.

I would love to earn $200 - $250 a day, there are a lot of New Zealanders who don't earn that much a day and dont get tips either.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

The hunting industry is not alone - we see tipping creeping into the hospitality industry in the South Pacific, simply by osmosis and the desire to reward extra good service. You especially see it in the hotel and restaurant industry now and especially in the big cities. Hell I gave an (anglo-Saxon) bell-hop a few bucks the other day in Sydney for humping all my heavy bags up to my room ... I didnt see the problem with it and he certainly didnt have his hand out. On the other hand I didnt give the taxi driver an cent extra, even though he was complaining about the short fare - fuck him he could hardly speak English and wouldnt help me with my shit!!

Matt the thing is that in the hospitality industry in NZ and Aus the pay is bloody good compared to what someone doing the same job in the US. I talked to a waiter in a resturaunt in the US last year he gets paid $2 an hour plus tips.......taking that into account I can understand tipping in the US. Would I tip someone earning a minimum wage in NZ or Aus NO BLOODY WAY....I've only ever intentionally NOT tipped once in the US and the service was atrocious and got justly rewarded with a complaint and no tip........JMO

For those that want to tip in NZ and Aus and especially those that recieve and solicit tips in NZ or Aus, if you think this practice is warranted in NZ and Aus then I think you should tip EVERYONE.
It doesn't matter if its the salesperson at the supermarket, the mechanic, the hairdresser, the waiter, the petrol station attendant, the hotel staff or whatever the occupation if you solicit tips then you should pay tips for everything you pay money for. If you are visiting and you give tips to one person while in NZ or Aus then you should tip everyone...afterall someone on the minimum wage in NZ is on approx 600% more than most waiters in the US and a lot of people earning wages are on a bit more than minimum wage.

If I knew of any of my customers that worked somewhere that had a tip jar out or solicited tips I'd add a tip charge to there invoice and charge GST on top....Kiwi