WHY SOME LOADS PLAY UP.


I have decided to post something a fair bit more serious than my previous posts. I really love reloading all our centre fires, but mostly our 22-250.

Anyway, I was going to ask some questions about my loads but I had better explain my reloading steps first to see if others can see things I am doing that could be modified.

I don’t separate shells in any calibre into make or weight or whatever. I first deprime them all on a Lee O press set up just for that purpose.

I clean the primer pockets with the Redding tool and trim the same to the necks. I normally take off about enough brass so that the inside lips at the top are very thin, but the process takes off no more than .050†down inside the throat of the shell. I do just enough to make sure trhe new projectile doesn’t hang up.

I check with a micrometer the length of the shell.

I reprime using a Lee Hand tool with different seats.

I dip the load of powder using Lee dippers but check about every fifth load with my Redding or Lyman scales and if there is an inconsistency, I dump the load out of the previous (5) shells and try again.

BTW, I always now use dry graphite powder I get from our local car mechanic. I haven’t had one shell stick in a die with graphite. I was having a few shells stick, particularly in the Redding dies, when using different wet lubes. I use a Redding stuck case remover but it’s a pain.

Once charged with powder, I place the projectile and seat it in our Redding Boss Press.

Once I have say, 50 loaded rounds, I tumble them in a Lyman tumbler until they look clean.

Nearly all our dies are either Lee or Redding, on both ends of the cost scale. We have some RCBS dies, one for our 30-30, the other for a .308 and I think they arte the bees knees as far as quality for cost. The next dies I buy will be RCBS for whatever the calibre.

OK. Now accuracy in the different calibres vary but some of my loads----

204 Ruger always BM 2 26 gn Projectile 32 gn

.222 Rem BM2 24 gn 50 gn

.22-250 BM2 32gn 55 gn

6.5 X 55 Swede AR2209 40 gn 120 gn



I won’t keep on going with loads. I reload for 14 calibres over all in many different weight projectiles with different powders, but always ADI as it only costs us about $32 a kg.

Now why will the .222 Rem load always be so consistant that I can group well under an inch with my Model 70. The 204 groups consistently well. The Swede the same.

Yet the 22-250 (nearly all shot through a Ruger target model) will shoot them all under 1 minute then occasionally through a wild one up to two inches away from the group. If it was seldom act, I would say me or my son Drew. But, I get that odd weird flier, probably once in every 250 rounds, and often in shots we were confident of.

And sometimes two within a short run then not for another say 80 reloads.

The tumbler breaking up the powder (But would be unusual with BM2)?

And we use a lot of ADI powders in many calibres but this odd weird one in the 22-250 really has me.

It cannot be the scope as I have swapped them around. I have shot off a fair few factory loads (PMC and Winchester) but have never had the strange flier. So it must be in my reloading technique?

Cannot be the bedding as its free floated.

Any ideas?



Ross

Too muchJack daniels the night before???

Nope.

I wish it was just that simple.

Ross

A Ruger VT I had in .223 used to do the same thing, but particularly with factory ammunition. My solution was the Sierra 52gr HPBT, that's the only thing I changed and instant grouping ability. Even used to pull Norinco 55gr FMJs and replace them with the Sierra for easy MOA groups using Lee RGB dies.
Cheers...
Con

Some one near here also suggested the projectile could be the fault as I bought a bulk lot very cheaply that may have been no bargain after all. I'll try that with some 52 gn HPBT's and see.

thanks
Ross

Ross,
Yeah, give a better projectile a try, I had all sorts of trouble (above MOA accuracy) with the bulk packed Winchester stuff and oddly the 50gr Sierra Blitzking also did nothing spectacular. Sierra HPBT was an instant accuracy hit, and then just before I sold it I tried some cheap ADI ammunition... went sub-MOA... damn rifle!
Cheers...
Con

You didn't mention if you full length sized your cases at all.
Personally I don't. I just size about half of the neck length with my 222 and leave the rest of the case at its fired size. Nice snuggy fit in the chamber then.
Also, I wouldn't be tumbling loaded rounds. Too much chance of a dinted proj point or misaligned proj, the dust and crap from the tumbling media will stick to the cases too and go into your rifle chamber. Tumble 'em and then clean them up before you reload.

Tried deburring the inside of the flasholes? Can be some pretty big dags in there sometimes.

Try not to chamfer the case mouth too much, you shouldn't need a knife edge there. And if you do chamfer, try polishing the case mouth afterwards with some steel wool held in a drill to give it a nice polish and scrub the inside of the necks with a bronze brush a couple of times.
This will allow the bullets to slip into the cases very smoothly and results in less damage to the flanks of the proj when you seat them. Are your bullets going in straight? Roll them acroos a glass table to check.

Also, clean the primer pockets before repriming.

Have you played with the proj seating depths? Seat the bullet out far enough to keep it just clear of the rifling lands, say .02"-.04". Make sure they still go thru the magazine at this length though. I have trouble with my Sako 222 if I make them too long.

Cheers

I only full length resize when the cases start show "resistance" (?) when closing the bolt, otherwise its neck size.
Valid point about the dust in the tumbler. i will start to tumble before i reload. I only started doing it after as some cases discolored through fingure prints after the reloading process and being handled. I'll do that.

yep, I deburr inside the flash holes. never thought that I was excessively neck reaming but that makes sense. I just found that the Redding die was less inclined to get a case stuck if the case necks were reamed out a fair bit.I think they are going in straight. they look visually straight but I'll try them on glass when i get home form work (school)

I try different seating depths and it doesn't make any difference to the flier. I have my dies set so the seated bullet just kisses the start of the rifling lands. In most of my other rifles, thus seated gives the tighest groups, specially my .243 for some reason.

But I must check out whether the bullets are straight in the case. Good point at cleaning inside the case neck.

Thanks.

I'll be back later.

A couple of very good points that I'll check.

quote:

I dip the load of powder using Lee dippers but check about every fifth load with my Redding or Lyman scales and if there is an inconsistency, I dump the load out of the previous (5) shells and try again.

I'd be interested in the level of consistency you are able to achieve by dipping. A good test would be to weigh, say 10 dipped loads and record the results. Alternatively weigh and loads five rounds shoot them and check the results.

Your current powder charge may be on the top or bottom end of a charge that is close to a barrel harmonic node. The variation in powder may be pushing the barrel off this node.

With my rifles I'm able to achieve MOA or better with a 0.6 of grain load variation (plus or minus .3 of grain) which IMHO is good enough for hunting rifles .

I'm able to achieve this because I look for the node when developing loads.

Some time back I came across an article that tied "flyers" to defects in the projectile. The writer even referred to a machine (invented by another bloke) that would spin the bullet and measure variations in weight and density that would upset a bullet along it's flight path. Tests in the article indicted that just simply dropping a box of bullets to the floor would significantly increase the rate of flyers. If I remember the article right--it would lead me to suspect that newer designed bullets that are Bonded together, ie; lead bonded tigher to the copper covering of the bullet, should have less flyers than older designs that just extrude the lead and copper into a slug without additional bonding.

Your reloading steps seemed within reason until you started tumbling "loaded rounds", I wouldn't even vibrate clean loaded rounds. I deprime, resize and then tumble clean. This helps me find split case necks and other defects in the shells before reloading.

Good Shooting

Ross
First of all as the others have said don't tumble live rounds, there have been reports of rounds going off while being tumbled.

If I read right you use a primer pocket tool to ream inside necks only part way down? If there is a step in the neck this could result in a misaligned bullet

I think as the others also said try a different bullet. Which if the ones you have are seconds I would try first.

Also you said you didn't sort cases by manufacturer this coupled with dipped loads could lead to flyers - with say a small case with slightly heavier charge. In fact I would go as far to say that using different manufacturers brass with the one load could be potentionly dangerous, even brass from different lots could give you different pressures.

Personally I weigh every powder charge except for pistol and shotgun ammo.

To get the best accuracy one should not mix brands or even lots of components.

I took most of your ideas on board so I went through the cupboard where I store reloading components when I am in a buying mood and near a decent gun shop. I got out 100 unprimed new Winchester cases, primed them all after visually checking them.

I never use max loads as I have found I get better accuracy in most cases closer to the starting loads listed in all manuals, but particularly with the current ADI manual that I have (4th ed., published in 2004)

I loaded fifty cases with BM 2 with 33.5 gns weighed then toped with 50 gn Sierra Spitzers (No. 1330) and fifty with BM 2 (32.5 gn) and 52 gn HPBT Sierra Match (No. 1410)

Had some boxes of Speer 52 gn HPBT but not enough projectiles all up to load 50. I should really finish one box of projectiles before I move onto the next. I was hoping I had some Speer’s as I used to get good accuracy from my first 22-250, a Mark 10 Mauser with a heavy barrel.

Took them out the Bush after school and shot them all off, in five shot groups, through the Ruger Mk II Varmint that was causing me the head ache flyer. Not one. I grouped a coup down to about .8 while Drew did a fraction better, with the 52 gn loading.

The 50 gn loads were all .8 to one of 1.8†but I know that two of the rounds in the worst group were my fault.

Ideal shooting light about 4 today.

So I guess the problem was the bulk projectiles I bought. I guess getting 500 projectiles so cheap (two boxes of them) should have rang alarm bells.

I hope it keeps up. I have had an ocassion or two before when I have shot a heap of groups without a flyer but it looks really good at present.

So thanks to you all out there.

BTW, I quoted a way too low price for what we are buying ADI powders for (Its $32 a can, of half a kilo, not a kilo). I only buy BM 1 and 2, plus AS 30, 50 and 70 in bigger containers but all other ADI’s in the half kilo can.

My stuff up. Sorry.

And as a joke (still cannot get smileys to work) I love my Victoria Bitter and then Wild Turkey (not Jack).

I am so happy with our 22-250, it needs a really good clean with Hoppes No. 9. I think it the best for our centre fires.

Thanks to all again

Rossd
Aka GreybeardBushman

Oh yeah. I weighed all the new cases and there was only a negligible difference in weight. Out of interest I weighed a few other empties I had.

An IMI case was 2 gns heavier, a PMC case lighter by a couple of gn. I wonder if I can convince my son or daughter or both to sort them into brand after fired.

We have probably 2,500 reloaded rounds.

Our dealer has PMC at $49 a hundred if bought by the case so I just ordered a case with maybe another case coming in a month.

Our gun related stuff is so cheap at present. Its great when our $ is so strong against other currencies. I guess others around here (ie., farmers) aren’t so happy.
Anyway, thanks to all.

If it happens again, and who knows, I'll let you know.

My spelling and no smiles yet

quote:

I love my Victoria Bitter and then Wild Turkey.

Jeez...only a Victorian could like that stuff. Mate, do yourself a favour and throw that VB in the shit tin.
Then go get yourself a few sixes of James Squire's Strong Ale and learn what real beer is all about.....

(The Turkey is acceptable though..... )

Greybeardbushman ,
You are SERIOUSLY endangering your safety with your current reloading technique .
Never and I mean NEVER tumble loaded rounds . Smokeless powder granules are coated with a deterrent that controls the speed at which they burn . Tumbling loaded rounds results in this deterrent being rubbed off and thus the "speed" of combustion becoming more rapid . In effect you can take a safe load of slow burning powder and turn it into a highly dangerous load of fast burning powder .
There was a number of rifle blow ups in the U.S.A. caused by somebody tumbling old surplus .50 BMG rounds and selling them off .
If you have loaded rounds on hand you should pull the bullets and discard the powder . Ignore this at your own risk .
It is possible that this could also be the source of your accuracy problem .

Glad all is going well so far Greybeard.

I must admit I do like VB but much prefer Coopers Sparkling Ale - yes the cloudy one.
Any Bourbon will do as well with coke of course.

What Bushchook said! That bit is a real No-No.

Keep well.

Ian

Greybeardbushman

For mine that flier sounds like a pressure issue. I suggest you use the same components for all rounds and if possible from the same batch. I have been caught like this swapping brands of brass without backing off the load. You can check the variance b/t brands by filling a case with water then weighing the water.

As others have said by tumbling loaded rounds you can degrade the deterrent coating on the powder which will affect burn rate and thus pressure.

And I'll second Avatar. VB is only good for beer batter and cleaning the barbie.

Scott

I have made a contract with myself never to tumble another loaded round! We also loaded a batch with new brass, other projectiles etc and there were no fliers.

I posted about it above.

Are there no other sane beer drinkers in the world! VB or maybe Melbourne Bitter. The best of the best.
Groltsch (sic) is OK ocassionally as are a few beers from other Aus states but for "a hard earned thirst, you need a big cold beer, and the best cold beer is Vic"

Still having problems with getting the right smiley!

Wonder what the kids are learning here to-day?

Ross

Missed the bit about using different brands of brass Good thing some of the other posters are on the ball.

FWIW I load bulk Sierras (2nds) in most of my rifles and have no problems with maintaining MOA.

.243 75gn Sierra HPs (ignore the one on the right 1 out of 500)

Richard,

I am really impressed by the depth of knowledge on this site. I have taken your points into consideration and am acting on them.

I also like the fact that you know how to include pics of projectiles!

But I'II learn.

I know how now to use smileys (which is said seeing as what my son can do with this G4 laptop).

BTW, I seldom mention my 20 year old daighter who really loves going out shooting as she has Downs Syndrome and therefore, of course, cannot shoot.

A more loving person ever lived.

Ross