quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
Gun control isnt about guns - its simply about control. Once guns are gone they will move on to something else - chainsaws ? Motorcycles ? Kitchen knives ?

Gun control isnt about guns - its simply about control.

should be repeated over and over ....

The support for Karl and libertarian ideas is touching but is there anything wrong with a bit of intellectual rigour, the kind of argument Thomas Jefferson might respect?

My question as to whether we should be allowed to own Uzis, M60 machine guns, bazookas and ICBMs seems to have gone to the keeper.

Much as Jefferson was right to fear bad and tyrannical leaders, even his immense intelligence may not have foreseen weapons of mass destruction. And yet these weapons are mostly termed 'arms', entitled to be possessed by citizens under a literal reading of the US Constitution.

But the matter need not be and, arguably, is not a zero-sum game, despite the attitude of the NRA and some anti-gun campaigners. Expensive as they were, 'Chicago pianos' were once openly available but, with punitive taxes and other measures, legislators have removed them from general circulation. I don't recall the Supreme Court turning this around. ICBMs are even more expensive but I imagine the Koch brothers could afford a couple if they wanted - but it would seem such things are suppressed as 'Destructive devices'. (I'm glad to see that large-bore firearms with "legitimate sporting use" are exempt from this law.)

Mark Twain made an observation about lies, damned lies and statistics, and I concur with it. Perhaps the worst situation is when untruths are asserted to be statistics. An earlier post pulled me up for saying there had been about 17 'mass murders' in Australia in the late 20th Century, when according to his research the number was 14. I apologise most humbly for that error!

However, I now see that mchughcb claims there is deviant behaviour by less than 0.000001 per cent of the population. On reflection I see that this represents the cliched one-in-a-million chance and that on the Australian figures at least, may be a fair cop. I must contact Walter Mikac and remind him it was just the fickled finger of fate.

Sometimes, Muzza, putting words on bumper stickers doesn't necessarily make them true. Kitchen knives may be with us forever but you have to admit governments do regulate some kinds of knives judged to have no legitimate, legal purpose. Motorbikes are required to be registered for road use and some governments, rightly or wrongly, have targeted clubs that have them as their raison d'être. It might seem outrageous to you but I'm pretty sure a government would be applauded for regulating chainsaws if ever some maniac murders 35 people with one.

I won't side step anything. Should people be able to own Uzi, M60, bazookas and ICBM, umm yes and they actually do. Personal ownership of ICBM will be a pretty expensive affair so I hope you have deep pockets. Only the other month a gentleman was kind enough to come to the range with his browning Ma Deuce and fire it. Costs a fortune, eats a fortune and took three of us to carry it. Would I like a cannon as well? Hell yeah.

With regards to Walter. I know his cousin very well and I've met him a few times. The guy has moved. In another relationship. Why the hell would you call him to remind him of the obvious?

You've made your position clear, I hope I've made mine clear and haven't sidestepped any opinion you wanted to hear.

Mate , the firearms fraternity in New Zealand is under attack at present from our Police and specifically our Police Association - which is the Police Officers Union. Having just had an election and with a coalition Government full of liberal thinkers and other numpties we are in for a torrid time here.
Your referance to bumper stickers might amuse you but here in NZ it is starting to appear that control is the important word. I also ride motorcycles , own a chainsaw and use kitchen knives so my comments there are very relevant to me . Dont own a machine gun currently but have in the past , and still hold the appropriate licence to do so in the future. Why would I want to loose that ability?

'Dont own a machine gun currently but have in the past '

OMG Muzza,you are on the watch list for sure!

Gun laws explained?

The Government acknowledges the danger Golf Clubs pose to the community and wishes to reduce harm by these deadly weapons, therefore we will be bringing in new legislation to protect the public.

Starting next month we will be introducing a Golfers Licence and Golf Club registration system.

Members of the public who wish to apply for a Golfers Licence must join an approved Golf Club, after providing 2 character references from people who are not relatives and have known you for more than twelve months. The applicants must consent to a police background check and pay the annual fee nominated by your club.

Applicants must complete an approved Golfing Safety Course at their own cost $300, and be a member of a club for at least 6 months before applying for their Golfing Licence. During this time they are obviously not allowed to own their own clubs.

Applicants must also meet the required storage requirements for golf clubs, which is a solid steel container that is bolted to the structural framework of a building (good luck getting that one past your landlord) or a solid steel container weighing more than 150kg. If the licence application is successful this storage facility will be regularly inspected by police. Licensed Golfers must store all golf balls separate to their golf clubs. Any person caught storing golf balls with their golf clubs will be charged with an offence and have their licence revoked.

On submitting all the relevant documents to the licensing dept applicants must also provide fees of $79 for the application and $210 for the five year licence.

If the applicant is successful in their licence application they will be allowed to apply for a permit to acquire a Golf Club. As the new golf club registration system will cost money to administer there will be a fee of approximately $38 for each permit application. If the Golfer wishes to buy a club from another Golfer rather than a licensed golf club dealer they must have the sale brokered through a dealer and pay the dealer a $16 fee. These permits are expected to take approximately 6 weeks to process, this 6 weeks will not be included in the mandatory 28 day cooling off period, therefore Golfers can select a club they wish to purchase and be golfing with it within 3 months.

In the first 12 months of having a Golfers licence, the Golfer is permitted to own 1 putter (cat A) and 1 wedge (cat B) or 1 putter (cat A) and 1 iron (cat C). A wood will be considered a prohibited club and must be sold back to the government for a price the government has nominated.

In order to maintain their Golfers Licence, Golfers must complete a minimum of six club attendances per year, these attendances must all be competitions organised by your club. Golfers who hold more than 1 category of club must complete at least four club attendances per category of club they own, at least six attendances must be competitions organised by you club the remainder may be practice sessions. Golfers who fail to meet the required number of attendances per year will be asked to show cause why their licence should not be cancelled and their clubs confiscated by police.

The new legislation will also place a maximum on the number of balls that may be stored in a ball bucket at any 1 time. Ball buckets must be of a size so as not to allow more than 10 balls to be hit before refilling the bucket. Golfers are reminded that these changes are to make the community safer and not to inconvenience golfers.

Footnote;
If this all sounds a bit ridiculous to you, spare a thought for the farmers and recreational licensed shooters who jump through more hoops than a circus dog to enjoy their sport and only get a good headline when they win an Olympic Gold Medal. In Queensland we have a wild dog problem costing agriculture $64M, but successions of both state and federal governments continue to squeeze the shooters into oblivion.

Thanks mchughcb, my reference to contacting Walter was just an Aussie attempt at irony - I wouldn't even support his charity when asked.

Sorry to hear the wallopers are giving you a hard time, Muzza. I must say it annoys me, too, when the police and doctors run political campaigns like that. I guess they think their members have to face more of the horror of any laxity in the gun laws than most other sections of the community.

I'm interested to know you have a machine-gun licence. Obviously, you are considered a sane person of very good character. My interest in asking the question about those weapons in the first place was because any limitation on arms ownership suggests our legislators have a right to make laws in these areas. Mchughcb's answer did at least hold the line that no limitation on arms ownership should be tolerated. While I don't agree with it, I recognise that it does follow that NRA, zero-sum-game philosophy.

You may possibly be surprised to know that all sorts of self-loaders and, maybe, automatic weapons can still be licensed to civilians in Australia, but not without the owners jumping through lots of hoops. I am not against this, assuming it will weed out the Queen Street/Hoddle Street/Port Arthur-type maniacs.

Thanks Bad Ass, you've obviously put a lot of thought into the subject. I don't know that we need to go that far yet. In the event of some golfer having a bad day on the course and killing seven or 35 people with his clubs or irons, however, I will be the first to support you.