For those that don't know, the Minister of conservation in NZ has decreed that the Tahr herd is to be Majorly reduced.
The result will be that much of the best hunting country is to have a tahr density of 0%

The figures being used to justify this are extrapolations and not based on science. The Thar management plan being used to justify it is being used as lip service where useful to the powers, and ignored where required. It specifically states no Bull tahr to be culled yet they are going to remove 3000 male Tahr> A number that may not exist.

The requirement to consult with user groups has also been ignored.

While some control measures are justified, what is about to happen is out of proportion and will impact tahr and hunting for generations.
The way it has been gone about has been an attack on hunters as well with major marginisation been shown. The disregard for sections of the Tahr management plan makes me suspect that when the current figures are reached, this minister might well go for total eradication.

Sorry to hear that Shankspony! Bad news for all kiwi mountain hunters!

Zee

What is the purpose of all of this?

NZ has no native mammals except bats.

Wild and feral game do impact the environment - native trees with 600 year cycle etc.

In the alps, the soil is thin and high density of tahr does affect the environment.

Tahr in the high steep rugged country can be tough to hunt, primarily due to the terrain.

I think they had a target figure of 6000 animals in their range. At times they do spread their range 100 km up north. At peak their estimate was over 12,000 animals.

The Indonesian dictator's son had a big station with over 2000 animals on it. I have seen small stations with over 200 animals in 2 or 3 fenced paddocks.

In some areas they used to capture one female and fit a radio collar to track it - they called it the Judas Tahr. They just shot the rest of the mob and let this animal join with a new mob and so on. They would wipe out hundreds of animals from helicopter.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
What is the purpose of all of this?

In our present, new, government, the Conservation Minister, Eugenie Sage, who oversees wild animal control actions has a background of office in Royal Forest & Bird Society ( anti introduced animal ) and is an MP in the Green Party ( also anti introduced animal ) which is a coalition partner in the current goverment. Historically Eugenie Sage has made no secret of her rabid anti introduced animal views and now that she holds a position of authority seems bent on unleashing her unmitigated hatred of Tahr by ordering the destruction of as many as possible. I'm pretty sure she had been quoted as saying if she had her way there would be no Tahr at all in NZ. From what I see all this seems mostly her personal agenda and I haven't heard much publicly stated support of her intentions from fellow politicians, although there could be background support. As Shankspony says she seems willing to disregard any attempt at prior user group consultation or acknowledgement of the control measures outlined in the Tahr Plan ( a Tahr management document ). She needs to be reined in. I think the way she is behaving could eventually become a source of political embarrassment which hopefully occurs before she causes any major damage.
Naki is correct in that some areas are presently overpopulated by Tahr and control in these areas is certainly justified. Some of these overpopulated areas are private property. But the majority of Kiwis are happy with some Tahr roaming our mountains. We can maintian sufficient numbers to satisfy both Kiwi hunters and the guided hunting industry while ensuring their presence is not degrading our wilderness.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
What is the purpose of all of this?

Simply for the first time we have the NZ Green party sharing power in government. They are anti introduced animals, and anti recreational hunting/Firearms.
The green party minister of conservation has expressed her desire to rid NZ of hunter advocacy and introduced animals since before she was a minister. Now she has the power, and Thar are the first and easiest target.

Got it. About what I figured.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
What is the purpose of all of this?

Simply for the first time we have the NZ Green party sharing power in government. They are anti introduced animals, and anti recreational hunting/Firearms.
The green party minister of conservation has expressed her desire to rid NZ of hunter advocacy and introduced animals since before she was a minister. Now she has the power, and Thar are the first and easiest target.

There you have it.

The bloody GREEN PARTY!

They want to see the whole earth GREEN!

With no animal or human life on it!

They wish to come back to life as a cabbage in their next lives!

The horror ... the horror, as Colonal Kurz would see it.

Hey, kill off all the animals, then there's no reason for hunters having guns. So: Guns are the real goal.

Same shit everywhere it seems.

Good luck on getting that one booted out and run off down the road sooner than later.

George

Been there done that with deer, chamois and tahr with helicopter gunships having free range to shoot everything that moved for the meat industry in earlier times but it didn't decimate the animals. Can't shoot em from a chopper when in dense scrub and bush.

I had a friend who was in the NZ Forest service (the forerunner of DOC) when choppers (the old slow MASH Bell 47G chopper) were first employed to cull tahr and he told me that the tahr just poured off the mountain tops as though someone had emptied a big a bag of ball bearings over the mountain.

We did our annual tahr hunt earlier this year and there were hundreds of the animals around our small hunting area but most in the thick dense mountain scrub, or very quick to get into it if disturbed from their lofty open mountain cliffs and peaks.
I have been in a chopper shooting chamois and tahr for research and observed tahr coming down a mountain quicker than the Huey 500 can back down and that is frighteningly quick with your A-hole left up the mountain and the rest of your body crutched into the seat as the chopper flares out at the bottom.

Check out the diary returns for the ballot block tahr hunts for this year that are published on DOC's website, not many shot for the hunting hours in the field and numbers seen.
We are our own worst enemy too as DOC encourages trophy hunters to shoot 5-6 nannies and yearlings for every bull shot and to reduce herds to less than 10 animals, who does that in their hunting area and try doing it in winter.

The tahr culls done by foot hunters are done in summer and even then I don't think any big tallies are racked up.

NZ is quite unique in that we have a moderate climate in a small country, stuff all people thank god, large tracts of land with no roads, tracks or people and no natural enemies and virtually zilch parasites and diseases for any of our game animals.

Among others I've shot a 14 year old chamois only about 10mins flying time from one of our most prolific chopper meat hunters base. These animals soon learn the sound of choppers and can disappear like magic.

Getting ready to enter the ballot (1st October) for a tahr block next year, bet there will be plenty of animals around.

Things have changed a bit now. the country that kept tahr safe in the past is now not safe. hers the technology they are using to destroy them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtBoa4WewBs

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Things have changed a bit now. the country that kept tahr safe in the past is now not safe. hers the technology they are using to destroy them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtBoa4WewBs

Yes but bullets haven't changed, they still don't go through scrub and trees.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


They wish to come back to life as a cabbage in their next lives!

They are already cabbages.

But they are dangerous cabbages.

There is now a give a little page being set up to donate to the legal challenge that the NZ hunting community will have to proceed with if we want to stop this.

https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/nz-tahr-foundation

How much money do you think you need?

quote:

How much money do you think you need?

Larry,
I had a quick word to Kaylyn ( fund coordinator ) today. Estimates only as legal costs can tend to be open ended but an initial injunction could be in the region of NZD $10,000 and if it needs to go to the High Court, another NZD $50,000
Personally, I don't know if an injunction would stop this particular government minister but hopefully, as there is a groundswell of opposition building to oppose this ministers plans. My guess it it will go to the High Court as the minister will fight all the way.

Awesome 30.06, Have just been trying to find that info out myself.

quote:

My guess it it will go to the High Court as the minister will fight all the way.

And the minister will use public funds to fight with.

There has been an ongoing battle on a number of fronts. Recently the same dept opened up large areas of the country to aerial commercial meat hunters. Areas that had always been protected from such.
Hunters won that battle and got it stopped but the dept has largely ignored the courts recommendations and as you say Gryph, with public funds, can keep on returning to court and bleeding hunters dry until they get their way.

Before going all out on politics how about going to the DOC website, select hunting then type in tahr ballots in the search box. Just have a read through the information there.

Better still get your backside down into the tahr areas and sit and glass for awhile around your hunting block, get into the bush and scrub and observe the copious piles of tahr droppings and foraging they are doing in the bush areas let alone up in the alpine grasses area. Our countryside just can't sustain that sort of pressure.

Have a look at the condition of the tahr, they're in better nick than our domestic beef cattle would ever be. If you are all so concerned about culling with helicopters then get your bums down to the areas and do some culling yourself. Our game animals were all declared noxious animals from not too long after they were introduced in the early part of last century with our NZ Forest Service then Department of Conservation (DOC) regulated to exterminate them. Never worked despite probably millions of helicopter hours and many prangs and deaths of good men, some were my friends. The deer, chamois and tahr are still laughing and will continue to do so.

If you expect there to be enough tahr to shoot from the state highway then sorry that ain't going to happen you just gotta go and get them in their environment.

I'm not a greenie but do support culling, poisoning of possums etc. We just can't keep up doing it on foot. Animals are like trees, if you don't prune you get poor fruit.
Seeing is believing.

.

My 2 cents

1/ email eugenic.sage@parliament.govt.nz and tell her your thinking. I did.

2/ what about if kiwi operators put out a special on thar hunts and reduce the cost to the international crowd - a 2 for 1 on bull thar!! May see a few more being taken !!!!!!

.

Eagle,
It's the attitude and behaviour of Eugenie Sage, Conservation Minister, that has got hunters' backs up. As a major user group of backcountry NZ I believe she should be consulting Kiwi hunters in matters of game animal control but it seems she is prepared to snub hunters as she launches her personal agenda for Tahr reduction. In recent years the solid progress made in the relationship between hunters and DOC is now threatening to be undone by a maverick minister. She needs to be reminded, by court order if necessary, that her deliberately unilateral actions are unacceptable in this modern era and she needs to involve and bring on board those groups most affected by her intentions.
Another aspect of her behaviour that concerns me is what I perceive as raging hatred of Tahr. I think she is somewhat blinded by this hate. It seems she wants to scorch the earth clean of Tahr, the sooner the better, and damn the consequences. Trophy bulls will not be spared which understandably has hunters alarmed. For one, I agree Tahr numbers are high in some localities ( I'm thinking mainly of Tahr I have seen on private lands ) where culling is both justified and necessary and you are correct, recreational hunters alone cannot keep the populations balanced. The minister could have decided to follow the population control measures outlined in the Tahr Management Plan ( which DOC generally has not ) and would probably have hunters support for targeting mainly female Tahr to achieve lower populations and reduced habitat impact. But she is defiant in her belief and needs to be brought to heel. Her conduct is unbecoming for a person in her position.
I don't care for having Tahr that can be shot from the roadside. As you say, the right way is to get on the hill and hunt them where you will be challenged and be grateful for what you honestly earn. And I would like to know there is real possibility of locating a ripper trophy bull while I'm there and not on a fool's errand because Eugenie has ordered the destruction of all and any Tahr the choppers can find. A sensible, measured approach to Tahr control ( i.e. management ) is capable of both holding populations at acceptable levels and allowing bulls to reach trophy size. Again, due to her personal agenda, Eugenie is prepared to ignore this. I don't think she will achieve elimination of Tahr but she could make a major mess of things before she runs out of steam, or budget money, or both.

I just sent off an email to an assortment of NZ politicians opposing the proposed cull.

In my mind, its a given that some form of culling is be required , but in this case, to remove some 30,000 animals within 12 months is an over reaction by the Minister. At best its likely to ruin Tahr hunting for a generation, at best, or possibly make the herd unviable in the long-term.

Conducting the cull now, and later consulting with stakeholders, is bloody minded.

The Fiordland Wapiti Foundation has successfully demonstrated that hunters can play a significant and active role in managing a prized game herd and protecting its environment.

The Minister now has the chance to use her executive power to achieve what she failed to do as an activist before entering politics.

I'll be contributing to help the NZ Tahr Foundation fight this through the courts, because anything less, under this Minister, be futile, I believe.

The request to the Government is simple, stop the proposed cull to allow all stakeholders to develop a proper management plan.

Totally agree Grant.

The issue is not is control needed, its the lack of consultation. Consultation required under the relevant acts of parliament. Its the way the figures to estimate the tahr herd have been gathered, and the consequences of the cull if (Most likely) tose figures are incorrect. Its the disregard for the recommendations of the Tahr management plan.
Also there is and has been from DOC for a long time, a stacking of the playing feild against REC hunters being able to do the required job. The tahr ballot blocks are nearly impossible to reach on foot, yet we are only given 3 months of the year to fly in there. The landing sites in the Westland national park is restricted to three sites in 800 square kilometres roughly.
All this makes control impossible and puts guides against hunters.
What is needed is management that works to make control by hunters feasible.

The response so far has been amazing. 34000 raised in 10 hours or less yesterday, money coming from all sectors and many overseas hunters from Australia, Europe, And America!
Personally I was thrilled to see some young guys from Switzerland that I took hunting this year in NZ and who have a large internet following get straight out and start fundraising in Europe.
makes doing that kind of thing worthwhile.

This Non Genie sheila is she really a Green because if she is she will fight with every NZ dollar she has at her disposal and that will be considerable.

The Aussie Government brumby chopped cull was stopped in NSW on 'cruelty grounds'

Your own NZ Greens are your enemies but if its laid out that the Gov way is going to kill 30,000 Tahr they would be better helping you NZ hunters in stopping the cull as you mob will only knock 3000

Make sense?

They will do it without us Gryph. The technology is there to do it now and they dont want us part of it.

https://www.facebook.com/theds...eos/937650256421815/

Bit of a bugger with the 'ranch tahr' included but its spreading the love anyway.

Great and timely support from Dallas Safari Club.
Thankyou Dallas Safari Club !

https://www.facebook.com/theds...Dg0MjAwOTg0OTIzNTcy/

110,000 donated in 3 days, the minister has had to lock down her twitter and instagram accounts, the dept has been flooded with Official information act requests.
Television and radio interviews where the reporters have been fair and reasonable, on occasion supportive.
This has been an unprecedented response that i guarantee the Dept of Conservation never expected.

That is great news mate,I`m only a two trip bloke myself but for those hunters (real hunters) that get into that back country hunting Tahr every year it will be devastating to them if that ***** ****** ***T gets the cull underway.

There are more than enough in "ranch style" places to keep the other lot happy.

Shanks,
A fantastic public response for sure and I'm sure DOC is stunned.
Any word on whether the slaughter might be more tempered now, or even halted until some genuine consultation occurs ?

30.06, you probably have better knowledge than I do. I suspect no, this will go down to the line.
The National party is beeing more supportive of hunting than it has in a long time and the official questions they have asked in parliament seem designed to prove the minister hasn't followed proper procedure.

Gryph, the cull is to included ranch tahr on private land too.

Well the prices will skyrocket now!

quote:

but in this case, to remove some 30,000 animals within 12 months

Where does this number come from.

I doubt if there are more than 15,000 tahr in NZ. Possibly a lot less.

Shanks

Good work my friend. Wish you all the best.

Other than being one of the thousands of concerned hunters who's contributing what I can, Im not involved in the active fight on this, Just relaying here what is being done by those who are on our behalf.

So it seems the dept commissioned an Aussie company to research tahr numbers and they came back with a 95% confidence that the herd was between 17,000 and 52,000. They settled on an average of 37,000 and decided they would remove 25,000.
It sux! the number to be removed could well be more than exist and they dont know for sure.

Have the idiots given much thought about 30,000 animals shot and left to rot and what the remains will do to the waterways etc?

The National Party (Main political opposition) has organised a petition against this.

Please sign.

https://www.national.org.nz/st...?recruiter_id=737944