quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
one thing I found out it is hard to make a one shot kill to the head

Sounds like you found

1. The horns ?

2. That hollow cavity / honeycomb type structure above the brain that seems to be superb at catching bullets if the angle is right as well !

George

the bullet use was represented in the original offer

Barry [the outfitter ] stated that I would need a minimum of 3 rounds per head taken

that was upfront before I purchased the hunt

I planed on takning 75 head so that would be an ammunition requirment of 225 rounds right there

I took 100 rounds of 375 ruger loaded with 375 tsw barnes bullets the 11 pounds max was the limiting factor there 11 # is the airline rule

Berry offered me enough .338 rounds to make up the balance so I purchased one box of 375 H&H bullets
4 boxes of .338 win mag bullets and 2 boxes of .308 bullets this was all sold to me at there cost with that count of an additional 140 rounds I was 7 bullets long end of day Friday but Tony had scraped up 11 out of the Toyota

so I consumed 245 rounds having all that fun

next year I will arrange for an even 300 rounds

being short ammo was way to much stress

505 that's right

head shots are tricky for sure

by day 3 I was a little better at finding
the sweet spot but that was in the 30-50 yard range and still iff ie as heck

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Trax just one started a charge

most of the bulls shot had a broken front leg/shoulder

some a hip down as well and to make the finishing shot I would be 40 to 50 yds out

the bull that started a charged had been shot center mass in the chest

one thing I found out it is hard to make a one shot kill to the head

dont think I would plan on them not charging

one got on top of Tony last year and dam near killed him it had been shot by a 300 win mag

and was just laying there like dead he walked up and it jumped to its feet

got on top of him in a second

we had one do just that

but there were 3 of us shooting at him when he stood up like he was not even hit a wake up call when they do that a real wake up

when they have structural damage [hips and shoulders ] they are not quite as moble


the big body bulls shot were in ones or twos so not in a big group so much

in a mob of 15-20 the cows and calf's heeled up-- and the bulls ran off fast and first-- so not many big bulls in the large groups culled

Yes head shots from the ground are not easy - and you must beware the animal that drops to the shot with a CNS hit. They are the ones that get up again when you poke them in the butt.

Sounds like Tony worked that out!!

it would not be a good idea to approach a downed Asian buffalo with an empty tube or even just one gun

best to re kill em a time or two before you wander over for a photo

Stradling

Matt's comment re CNS shot and your comment re a Buffalo stomping on Tony reminds me of someone I know who shot a Big Bull, had a look it but no one had a camera so off they went back to camp to get one, had lunch, went back and Bull was nowhere to be found.

The bullet had "clipped" the spine, knocked it out cold and it had woken up later.

Which is why that same person now says to make sure they are down and dead before moving !!!

Firstly,

Stradling,
thankyou for the detailed response on the question of buff charges relating to the cull...

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
Now now Trax are you suggesting that our water buff aren't as hard core as cape buff?

No, not at all.
But I do believe a lot of the incidences of buff charges both Asiatic and African, are exaggerated and hyped -up,
and no where near as common as some might like to people to believe.
Stradling shot some 84 bovine and faced only one charge, despite at times having several wounded buffalo around him
at the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Trax
...Not just Bulls charge.

Yes, I am well aware of that fact.
I asked Stradling if he was genuinely charged by Buffalo, not if he was genuinely charged by a bull specifically.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
He was obviously killing them quite efficiently. Dead buffalo dont charge...

Stradlings response indicates that he was not killing them efficiently, but immobilising buffalo quite effectively,
If he was killing them efficiently, he would not need to go back along the line of immoblilized animals, to administer 'Coupe de grace'.

If you don't agree, then your idea of what constitutes 'efficient killing', is conveniently contorted.

This belief is based on what personal field experience Trax?

"Stradlings response indicates that he was not killing them efficiently, but immobilising buffalo quite effectively,
If he was killing them efficiently, he would not have had to go back along the line of downed animals to administer 'Coupe de grace'.

If you don't agree, then your idea of what constitutes 'efficient killing', is conveniently contorted."


Trax

When you are killing a few animals all at once,
ie a cull, then I have noticed a couple of factors.

1. If you re new at it (as in not used to fast and furious firing or offhand shooting or shooting animals on the run), your accuracy isn't as good. It definitely improves the more you do it.

2. Looking at the photos, these are not big bulls. Unless you hit the heart or break the spine, a Buffalo may go down hard but might not be dead. They are (or can be) tough animals.
(I don't recommend brain shots as a first shot).

3. Take out the leg, it can make it hard for an animal to get up again so alive but immobilised.

Pro hunters who shot for a living from horseback spined animals. These were very much alive but with a broken back, couldn't get up.

Lastly, you can put the same shot on two animals, one will die, the other won't. Have sen it numerous times.

trax just takes one to kill you


buy the hunt from Barry

8.5 k gets you 75 head 1 or 2 will try to kill you more if you can not shoot fast and straight


hell of a good chance to make and demonstrate your point

505G,

I understand the concept of rapid shooting groups of running game, did it for good number of years on different crop raiding ferals.
My hunting companion can testify, that I cleaned up small groups of fast moving Emus at like 200yd, with my 300weatherby.
Yes we would 'down' pest animals and continue shooting the rest of the mob, then finish off whats still kicking on the ground.
Even the large boars I took while recreational hunting in Cape york, were properly drilled while fast on the move at 350yd.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
trax just takes one to kill you

Stradling,...indeed,I don't doubt that at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
This belief is based on what personal field experience Trax?

Fortunately, its not based on hunt accounts by people with very limited experience with wild bovine.
Sorry, but if someone has shot 6 buff in their lifetime-and was charged by 2 or 3 of them,
I don't foolishly assume that something like 33-50% of all buff will charge a hunter, while pursuing buffalo.
Instead,
I prefer to base it [in part] on what sober minded-highly credible people on AR have reported about their own broad & extensive experiences.
- Saeed has shot a few hundred Cape buff[without big bore] and has never been charged, be it close-in,far-off, open ground or thicket.
>>I don't believe it to be mere co-incidence, that his broad experience base findings on Cape buff hunting exactly mirrors that of WDM Bell
with some 700 to his own personal tally...Both men with much more buff experience than most [both independently & collectively],
- both state that they have never been charged......and Stradling with 84 Asiatic buff, one charge.

Overall: something like one thousand Buff kills [from three men]...and only one buff charge.

I would attribute such low incidence of buff charges over some 1000 animals, to good/proper shot placement by the three men.

Saeed or Bell is/was not a PH earning an income by taking recreational hunters on intentional 'close-in' thrill or [stunt?] hunts.
On the other hand, its NO doubt that people who choose the Mark Sullivan style/type approach to DG, are more likely
to encounter charges and safari operators will sell hunts by marketing/encouraging those type experiences.

Personally, I feel it is PHs duty & responsibility to help clients and trackers avoid as much risk as possible while DG hunting,
rather than encouraging or assisting the client, to put more lives at higher risk.

I read that Stradling on his 84 kill buff shooting excursion, took animals at various ranges up to 180yd.
He has the sensibility and contentment to take hunting just as it comes, be it 20 yd or anywhere out 180yd, as was the case.
and I truelly believe that Stradling had an utterly fantastic time, regardless of the shot distances and gross lack of charges.

However Matt, if you and your clients are experiencing an unusually high number of Buff charges,
why do you think that might be....
1./Bad shooting?
2./inadequate cartridge?
3./getting very close more/too often, that charges are more likely?
4./ any or all of the above?
5./ other?

quote:

On the other hand, its NO doubt that people who choose the Mark Sullivan style/type approach to DG, are more likely
to encounter charges and safari operators will sell hunts by marketing/encouraging those type experiences.

Trax

My answer
4./ any or all of the above?


Without a doubt.

You can certainly "instigate" a charge by pissing off animals, if you happen to wound
one walking up instead of putting another shot into it / keeping shooting until it is down even if it is not dead. - so 1, 2 and 3 !!!

So part of it would be how you shoot / hunt.

I think Scrub Bulls are more dangerous than Water Buffalo !


BTW, Good shooting on Emu, they are not easy
when running flat out.

I have had plenty of Asiatic buffalo want to, try to kill me - obviously they failed in some way!! Most of them are not able to because they have been badly wounded - or we just kill them before they get a chance. The object is to kill them and we do it well.

It is very difficult to explain such things to people who have no first hand experience. Yes people like you Trax!!

Matt,

quite the hype if you can, its actually not difficult at all!....

Just out of interest,
how many genuine buff charges have you witnessed[or encountered] over say,the last 1000 or so buff kills
that you were present at?
curious to see how much it differs from the total of charges experienced by Saeed,Bell and Stradling combined.
After their 1000 or so kills , the average rate is about 0.1% charges per 1000 buff killed.
..and not to forget the several more thousands of non-targeted/non-charging buff in the herds, that were also in close
proximity to the hunters, when the targeted ones were approached and shot.

1000 buff[kills] withy hunters being equally close to several more thousand buff over the same period that 1000 were taken,
is a good base to work/draw sound sensible conclusions from, and the empirical based findings certainly do not support
the commercial recreational hunting industries promotional hype-impression that surrounds buff hunting and its sensationalisation-
- exaggeration of the likelyhood of genuine iminent danger & charges.

If your buff charge rate happens to be abnormally much higher than 0.1%, can you explain or attempt to educate the forum
as to why that would be?

I can detail all of them for you if you really like.

1 bull, unknown reasons, possibly a previous wounding.
1 bull, unwounded, challenge during mating season. We were caught between him and his cow herd.
1 bull, unwounded but we inadvertedly pushed him out of thick cover 1 too many times.
1 bull, badly wounded with an arrow (shit happens on big jobs.

These are just the proper charges, not the bulls that just generally get really upset and start carrying on a treat and then we have to GTFO. Had quite a few chase me out of their patch.

Not also to mention the maybe a dozen or more buffalo (bulls and cows) that tried to have a shot ...but couldnt because they had too many broken bones already.

Matt

That's a fair summary which I think gives a good cross section of what occurs.

I'll add one that was a cow, we had snotted her mate, then chased her round a paddock for 2 days
with the two calves and then she just decided enough was enough and started coming at us on the Quad. She was shot there and then because she would have come at us without a doubt.

And a big bull that did what everyone says Cape Buff do, backed up into a thicket of saplings against a Burnt black stump and was waiting for us to walk past. Without a doubt he would have charged.

hit it with 2 us ton 4000 # it will get it



hit with 1 to 1/2 ton s slap that's
1000 # more risk

at 200 yds well that is about a 1/2 ton with a 375



shoot to make em stand up on thier back leg's toes the front and well that one is done


this is with a hard bullet that braKES THE SHOLDER THEN GETS IN THE PUMP HOUSE


saw that about 50 times last week

quote:

I think Scrub Bulls are more dangerous than Water Buffalo !

Nigel - I really appreciate your honesty and factual comment. I for one always thought that a scrub bull is a real DG.

I have had my opinions about Water buffalo & a few stir ups here with Aussie guys - but this hunt sounds absolutely awesome. I wish I could shoot 75 water buffalo as a practice hunt before going top Africa next year!

Naki

One of the reasons is

The Scrub Bull horns mostly stick forward,
Buffal sweep back and although they will
horn you as they go past, I don't like the
look of the Scrub Bull horns when they are
coming at you at very close range.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Nigel - I really appreciate your honesty and factual comment. I for one always thought that a scrub bull is a real DG.

Real dangerous 'game'??? Are you serious?? .... surely it is just a feral domestic animal.

That just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about... you contradict yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

I have had my opinions about Water buffalo & a few stir ups here with Aussie guys - but this hunt sounds absolutely awesome. I wish I could shoot 75 water buffalo as a practice hunt before going top Africa next year!

You wouldnt lower yourself to shoot/hunt 'domestic ferals', surely?

'Practice' on our buffalo before you go to Africa... ........ you really are a turkey!!!

Hey - Maybe you AND Trax could both go and get some real life hunting experience together?

When I was a teen Dad and a buddy bought 20 head of brahmas to raise. Some would eat cake out of a bucket with us holding it against our leg. Others we had to carry a club or they'd start being aggresive. Re: walking slowly toward us in a threatening manner. A few times we even had to whack 'em with the clubs. One was black bitch with a lightning steak across her face: Old Slash was a nasty one. Laid with her ass under a gate and had a calf. then wouldn't accept it. We roped and stretched her out twice a day for months and reached over her back to milk her out to feed the calf.
Don't think that would be possible with these "wild cattle in oz", nor Selous either.

Funniest thing that ever happened. Dad was driving the herd and a huge charlais bull wouldn't go. He stayed standing in a patch of downed brush and timber. I waded in after him. Face to face @ 6 feet he lowered his head and growled at me. Don't know why or how but, I reacted by throwing my ball cap and hitting him between the eyes hard enough my wife heard it pop from 50yds away. He reared up and whirled away running right past the herd and down to the corral a mile away. When Dad and I got there to let them in. He told me: "Watch that white bull he'll take you!". "now you tell me!"
Fun times on the ranch.

Yes I've shot a bunch of 'em too. All but one to eat. Never had to shoot any twice and that was with a .22 to the brain. Man they drop quick that way. Shot one with my .30 carbine Blackhawk. I swear his feet hit him in the belly before he dropped. Didn't bleed out either. Stopped his heart too. Butcher gave me hell for shooting with that damned cannon pistol. Oh well,
George

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:


'Practice' on our buffalo before you go to Africa... ........ you really are a turkey!!!

Naki-Hunter wanting to first shoot 75 water buff in Australia would not at all help him with gaining some helpful experience
for when he shoots other DG,...like Cape Buff In Africa?

Please Matt, tell the forum why such experience would not help someone in some way,
for when they later go to Africa after Cape buff.


Matt,
were you required to first pass a proper PH course, before ever being permitted to guide client onto DG in Northern Australia?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:


'Practice' on our buffalo before you go to Africa... ........ you really are a turkey!!!

Naki-Hunter wanting to first shoot 75 water buff in Australia would not at all help him with gaining some helpful experience
for when he shoots other DG,...like Cape Buff In Africa?

Please Matt, tell the forum why such experience would not help someone in some way,
for when they later go to Africa after Cape buff.

I was laughing that he presumed he should come and 'practice' on our animals before the 'real deal' ... he thinks they are inferior you see!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Matt,
were you required to first pass a proper PH course, before ever being permitted to guide client onto DG in Northern Australia?

Now, now - lets not ask rhetorical questions. You know that in the NT the only requirements is the firearms course. Outfitters must qualify for the corporate licence and beyond that we survive on our own experience and resources. No need for more regulation beyond that. No different to many other countries and provinces.

I think Stradling has shot his share of capes as well, but is obviously having fun with a different hunt in a different place.

Hunts are what they are; and you can't hunt Africa in Australia or Australia in Africa. Canada isn't Europe either. This century isn't Bell's, and he couldn't do what he did today. On the other hand, in a little corner of a big island it is at least conceivable that a non professional could take Bell's life buffalo total in 7 weeks and still retain his amateur status. That's mind boggling when you think about it.

Dogleg:
You've got that much right.

Talking about charges. Back in 2000 I shot a cow elk at 200yds up a real steep slope. Hit her perfect but, the 180gr C/L blew up on the ribs right where it was supposed to hit, it knocked her down and she slid about 100yds downhill toward me. When she stopped sliding she got up and ran. By then I was started up the hill in 16" of snow and slick rocks. I made a bad offhand shot hitting her on top the hips sure not expecting her to get up. But, it knocked her down and paralized her. When I got within 50 feet or so, pulled the pistol out as I don't like to blow up eating game with the rifle up close and the pistol is a lot quicker to get into action anyway. When about ten feet in front of her, back downhill etc. I slipped on a rock and looked down at my footing. Then I heard a racket from her and looked. She had her head up pawing hard with the front feet trying to get me. I just blasted her head apart with the pistol. Even a .30 carbine in a Blackhawk will destroy a cow elks head. I doubt very much it would be enough for one of these bulls we're talking about here, I wouldn't use that one anyway on them. Just goes to show you it don't have to be a big bad bull to try to get even for being shot.

Another time way back in the mid 60's Dad shot a bull elk that spotted him from too far away. A hill between them, he took an offhand shot from some over 250yds hitting in the small of the back spining him. When he got close the bull dragging his back end tried charging him from under 50yds. I was 1/4 mile or more away watching it all happen. Dad finished the deal with another shot. Don't know where that one hit. He used an '06 w/180s. Until that bullet exploded on the ribs of that cow I used the same 180gr C/L's. Now I've gone to Sierra's 200gr Game King in the .300Win/m.

Anyway, back to the bulls of nasty reps.
George

If you "spine" a Buffalo at the middle or back end
it will sit on it's arse and try to get you when you come close. Like your story, it can't get up
but tries anyway !

And the other thing is, you never know if they
could get up and one day, one might !!!

I have taken out the odd cantankerous bull that
has been known for chasing vehicles, chasing people up trees etc and every time I have been warned to expect a charge. Some of them are just like that when they live or come into contact with people.

Just got this email

Old Craig B and someone? Is that you Matt?


http://member.scifirstforhunte...tonhnt4evr102413.jpg

ah ha its not you


http://huntforever.wordpress.c.../really-big-buffalo/

Matt

Any recent clients who bought your DANGEROUS WILD buffalo hunts? Or any Ibex hunts? Or was it markhor? Any caracal or Wild cats in your neck of the woods?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt

Any recent clients who bought your DANGEROUS WILD buffalo hunts? Or any Ibex hunts? Or was it markhor? Any caracal or Wild cats in your neck of the woods?

You and Trax should team up as hunting buddies... clueless....

Naki

How many Buffalo have you shot ?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
If you "spine" a Buffalo at the middle or back end
it will sit on it's arse and try to get you when you come close. Like your story, it can't get up
but tries anyway !

And the other thing is, you never know if they
could get up and one day, one might !!!

I have taken out the odd cantankerous bull that
has been known for chasing vehicles, chasing people up trees etc and every time I have been warned to expect a charge. Some of them are just like that when they live or come into contact with people.

This Bull draged his back end trying to get us !

Water Buffalo are more dangerous than Scrub Bulls in my opinion, Scrub Bulls are more likely to charge as they are always flighty & scared, so run over & horn what they are scared of before any thing happens to them, most of them any way, also charge with the head in a good position to be shot & the body being of much lighter construction is easier to break down .

When a Water Buff does charge he can take a lot of punishment & repels a lot of the projectiles .

Bantang are the worst & if they had the body structure of the Water Buff we would be in Shit Street a lot more

I'm thinking like a Gaur, but I have never shot one or more to find out !!

That's a management Bull in the pic by the way !

Sure takes away from the good story when these 'writers' start talking 'scores".
Fk the scores imo.
George

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
This century isn't Bell's, and he couldn't do what he did today. On the other hand, in a little corner of a big island it is at least conceivable that a non professional could take Bell's life buffalo total in 7 weeks and still retain his amateur status. That's mind boggling when you think about it.

its just not about meeting the total,
that current day ametuer not only needs to proficiently shoot like 700 buffalo, but if he wants to emulate/simulate Bell in any way similar,
he needs to do it with a 6.5mm and 7mm bore, and without having anyone back him up through it all. Thats where Bell learnt value of being highly
proficient at head shots, but he also cleaned cape Buff up very successfully, with body shots from 7x57 with solids.
note: Bell advised that DG hunting with small bores was not recommended for novices not proficient at critical shot placement.

The Oz water buff culler of the 1970s, like Bell, relied on well disciplined -precise brain shot placement, to proficiently kill their
numerous count of DG.
However as Matt Graham has pointed out, very selective-precision/acccurate shot placement is of much less importance when he is guiding
recreational hunters onto water buffalo, hence accurate brain shots are apparently, not encouraged.

Why would a 7mm be necessary? Bell did his thing his way, the Aussie culler or market hunter his, and I as a tourist will do mine.

The pressure that a client has is that his shot selection isn't just based on efficiency or regulation but on the fact that his trigger squeeze is going to cost him his plane ticket, day-rate and trophy fee whether its successful or not. If he is going to bet, say, $12,000 on a shot why wouldn't he want to go with the best odds of pulling it off? Why wouldn't his guide encourage him to do the same? Why would he risk hitting the horns? It just makes common and economic sense to take the biggest and easiest target available which is usually the heart/lung/shoulder shot and he might as well use the biggest thing he can shoot well. On the other hand, I've seldom been accused of having any sense, common or otherwise and have taken a few head shots on buffalo. My water buffalo this year got brained, partly because I was carrying a .30 caliber, partly because that was the best/only clear shot through the bush, and partly because I knew I could make it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
My water buffalo this year got brained, partly because I was carrying a .30 caliber, partly because that was the best/only clear shot through the bush, and partly because I knew I could make it.

A smart choice at the time!!

You know the answer Nige - zero.

But then I will never claim the Feral Aussie Water buffalo is as wild and dangerous as the true Wild Buffalo (Bubalis arni).

I find it really amusing when people make such claims and then get touchy when corrected!

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Naki

How many Buffalo have you shot ?

Although I have not hunted the Water Buffalo, I would have to consider them "wild" and it certainly reads that way in the English dictionary.

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:





That's a management Bull in the pic by the way !

I like that management bull. Bulky, old and busted

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
You know the answer Nige - zero.

But then I will never claim the Feral Aussie Water buffalo is as wild and dangerous as the true Wild Buffalo (Bubalis arni).

I find it really amusing when people make such claims and then get touchy when corrected!

Well how do youknow any different to the next person? What's so funny?