Hi folks!

I have been out few times in the bush (DOC reserves) and had a great time scambling, crawling and falling down slipery slopes and generally getting very wet! I find my full length 303-25 rather difficult to keep off the ground and keeping my hands free at the same time. What short, handy and affordable rifles would you guys suggest? I have put a thread under Wildcatting to this effect - refering to a 303 carbine or 303-35/303/41 carbine. What do you guys use?

Cheers!

I use a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 with an 18.5" barrel.

I find it to be a handy and very compact rifle to tote around and packs a hefty wallop out to 200 yards or so when using handloads.

Certainly don't feel outgunnned by my mates with their bolt guns at all when hunting goats in steep country. In fact, more often than not, I collect more than they do due to the faster reloading sequence of the lever gun.

Last time I looked they were going for about $1000 AU for blued and $1150 or so for stainless steel.

In my experince rifle size/barrel length is not important. I've carried rifles with barrel lengths frorm 18 to 25 inches in calibres from 6mm to 9.3mm without difficulty. What I find useful is to carry my rifle in my left hand, leaving my right hand free to grab hold of support when needed, particularly when climbng down and then up guts. Don't be frightend to use you rifle as a walking stick, all my rifles, Tikka to Blaser have been so used.
Spend some time inspecting boots and pay particular attention to tread patterns.
My two main pairs of hunting footware were both bought form THE BIG RED SHED, one boots the others trainers, both have great grip. Where ever you buy boots from you must put some effort into sellecting a suitable pair. After 50 yeras of mountaineering and stalking I know a good pair when I see them, but I pass over far more badly designed ones. I realise this might not be much help to you, it's the old story there's no substitute for experience. It's also the case that some people have a better balance than others, my deer wife slips down far more than me, and she is fitter than I am.
The one recommendation I'll make for light stalking footware is a pair of touch football trainers, the ones with all those little studs, they can be very good, with great grip they are nice and light for pussy-footing about at this time of year.

As for getting wet, it's just part of the fun Mate

we talking shots at under 100 metres ?

any of the lever-action rifles from Winchester / Marlin / Rossi / Browning in 30-30 Win or 44 Rem Mag or even 38 spl/357 at a pinch.Or a Savage M99 in 250 Savage or 300 Savage or 308 win

If you are a 303 fanatic then a jungle carbine would be the only answer....

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As for getting wet, it's just part of the fun Mate

Hell yeah!
So is slipping down those slopes! I was thinking of those old fancy styled rifle butts with a shoulder hook arrangement .... you know exactly what I'm thinking!
Yep - I got me a decent pair of good gripping, soft souled boots from the THE BIG RED SHED too! I should get a spare pair while they still have them. Handsome price too - all of $32!
Of course, it would help a great deal if I was younger!

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If you are a 303 fanatic then a jungle carbine would be the only answer....

That is what I was hoping to hear! I dang just missed an SMLE on Trade Me I thought I could cut down. There are one or two MkI's with their dust covers coming up. That's what I really want, but the SMLE's have lighter barrels. If I have to lapp the bore and load with custom bullets, that would be fine. My 'Jungle Carbine' is going to have a few purpose specific modifications. Like that 'hooked' butt. It will also have a fat 'quiet muzzle break' for three purposes - keeping mud and rain out the muzzle, reducing recoil and reducing muzzle blast.

If your hunting in real tight shit hard to go past a 44mag ruger deer carbin lite, short, fast pointing with quick follow up shots


This is my main bush rifle for the moment, Sako AV with a 20 1/2" Hawkines s/s match barrel

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If your hunting in real tight shit hard to go past a 44mag ruger deer carbin lite

How well does the 44mag do at longer ranges? Having once owned a mini-14, I do not desire another semi. I never fired mine rapidly. The only benefit I found was that the noisy recycling took place during the noise of the shot. But that was a real handy bush rifle! I loved it. Short barrel, short stock, high scope mount, magic safety arrangement, total reliability and just plain cool. I had worked out a strategy for dealing with a charging bush pig - volume fire until it stopped! I never practiced it but I'm sure I would have pulled if off if the shit hit the fan.

I haven't seen too many pump actions around!?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
How well does the 44mag do at longer ranges?

I limit my shots with the 44mag to around 100m

Tight country demands a Carbine IMHO.
I have used two lever action pistol caliber Carbines,both in 44/40.Both with good results on Pigs and Deer at under 100 meters.
Each to their own at the end of the day.

I have a Marlin 336 and love it to bits - cheap as chips, you can scope it or use with aperture sights, or just the ones provided. Not light but pretty bomb-proof.

But loads of people use those 44 Rossi Puma levers. Dead light too. Pretty cool in stainless. Not first choice for a sniper, I'm picking.

But it's a 308 Tikka T3 I always take out...!

I like my Blaser Tracker for compactness and ease of handling.

Now that is one good looking fella - I mean rifle! Great picture! Now, about that short sight radius ..... There must be a good reason for it? And of course its' a Blaser - that barrel is not quite as short as it looks!

So, if the 44mags and 44-40's work on deer and pig at close range, it would follow that a 303-375 or 303-41 with short case (longer than the 44mag) would be quite 'adequate'.

I have an Excel file from bartsche waiting to be opened and I can't and that's frustrating me! Gotta get my flippin' computer sorted!

quote:

I have been out few times in the bush (DOC reserves) and had a great time scambling, crawling and falling down slipery slopes and generally getting very wet!

It sounds like my sort of sambar hunting and thus its what you can handle,i run a full barreled winchester magnum length barrel and I dont give a tinkers cuss for cutting perfectly good steel off a barrel and thus if you can handle long or short use it as you like.

Just remember a bloke that can handle a long `un can handle a short `un too ...maybe not the other way round!

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... dont give a tinkers cuss for cutting perfectly good steel off a barrel ...

This why I don't want to cut down my No4! It's perfectly good! (Although it was the original idea!) What I find is that the barrel iether pokes into the ground or if over shoulder, hooks up on every branch or vine in the country!

I tried something new (to me). I have attatched a clip thing to the top of my long rifle that clips into a loop on my backpack shoulder strap. The rifle hangs comfortably, barrel down and off the ground, under my arm. I give it a little support from my righ hand on the front of the strap but otherwise I am both hands free with the rifle on the ready. All I do is release the clip with my left hand and bring the rifle up. It's brilliant! Of course, I am relying on the muzzle device to keep crud out the muzzle!

My 'new' rifle has arrived! It is not exactly new, being a No.1 MkI LE - it's over a hundred years old. The bore was said to be dark and it was. But rifling was still visible and after a bit of lapping and fire-lapping, shows promise of being able to spin the bullet. This is going to become my bush rifle or carbine. The worst part of the barrel will be chopped off, making it about 500mm (maybe as short as 450mm). I shall be making a short stock and minimal fore-end and mounting the scope high and far forward (so that the bolt misses my face on recoil). It will also sport a fat and ugly muzzle break like on my No.4. It will also have a carry cord and clip like on my 303-25. Now to get on with the porject and see how it turns out in a few months time!

just dont go loading ammo to more thn factory pressures or your new toy may self destruct...

It is , as you say , over a hundred years old and needs to be treated accordingly...

Yup! But then again, the old cartridge and rifle (which is the same as my good Lee Enfield) is plenty powerful at its normal moderate pressures. But, FWIW, those old actions are pretty strong. Just not very rigid and overloads do set the headspace back! (I once fired nearly 500 rounds of MkVIII machine gun ammo through my 1902 MkI. There was a slight headspace increase but not enough to need attention! MkIII machine gun ammo is almost equivalent to 308 Nato! It was a military sponsored shoot and at that time I did not know such a thing existed and these were marked R2M2 - meant nothing to me!)

303guy, your addicted to 303s and everything based around 303. you need to seek help!

Ive always wanted to try one of those 300murmurs out..nice on the ears and shoulder.

Yeah, I know! But I gotta live up to my name.
But they're fun. Full of faults and great features that make them interesting and as a cartridge, caliber and rifle they're actually hard to beat - even after a 120 years! and now they have a new feature - check this out.






My carry cord arrangement! I found a neat use for the rear pee-sight of the No4. I had to improvise on the MkIII. This is the best thing since sliced bread! The carry cord is actually marine shock cord and if need be the rifle can be brought to the shoulder without unclipping it but it is actually simple enough and quick and quite to unclip with the left hand. I did try take some pics of it in the carry mode but for the love of money, I just could not aim the camera! Nor could I stand far enough back - it kept following me!

I use a Baikal.308,single shot, bought it brand new for $299, i quickly sold my Sako 75 after that, the baikal can take some knocks and you dont feel bad about it and shoots like a demon.
only prob is you have to get a rail mounted to mount your scope, trust me worth the trouble.

Shukaree welcome to AR.
Bloody Hell are all your mates faceless bureaucrats?

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Shukaree welcome to AR.
Bloody Hell are all your mates faceless bureaucrats?

Naaa, probably just the local chapter of the SAS
Welcome too, Shukaree, I like your reasoning.
Steve

I have just discovered what that little hole I enlarged and used for my carry cord attachment was for;

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Historical Note: A small hole was drilled in the left side of the bridge and served an interesting purpose. The hole is just the diameter of the firing pin or striker. If a rifle was about to be captured by the enemy, the soldier could remove the breechbolt and unscrew the bolthead to expose about 3/4-inch of the striker. He could then insert the exposed tip of the striker into the hole in the bridge and snap off the end of the striker, thus rendering the rifle unserviceable.

Ruger Model 77 RSI. The full length stock puts the sling toward the muzzle so it doesn't catch on branches, etc. The 18.5" barrel makes it incredible handy and quick. I have it in .308 Win. so it has plenty of punch up close and decent reach. I use a NECG peep sight instead of a scope. It is quick, light, and makes holding the rifle in one hand easier.

I vaguely remember a full stocked Ruger carbine. Would you happen to have any pictures?

Yesterday, I took my No.4 out for a 'walk'. It really is handy the way I have it hanging from my shoulder strap but it does still touch the ground on steep inclines if I am not careful. the 'shock cord' needs to be a bit stiffer and shorter. It's not as short as a carbine could be but I can get by with it. The muzzle 'device' is doing it's job! With ten shots fired, I was able to watch the bullets strike and did not once notice the recoil. So I just don't know yet what the recoil is doing. I did re-adjust the device position and increase the powder charge. Anyway, if the scope had smacked me on the nut I would have noticed!

quote:

Originally posted by citori:
Ruger Model 77 RSI. The full length stock puts the sling toward the muzzle so it doesn't catch on branches, etc. The 18.5" barrel makes it incredible handy and quick. I have it in .308 Win. so it has plenty of punch up close and decent reach. I use a NECG peep sight instead of a scope. It is quick, light, and makes holding the rifle in one hand easier.

citori,
Add a second-hand boat-paddle stock (assuming its a MkII) and they make BRILLIANT steep country rifles, cheaper than a Frontier as well!!
Cheers...
Con

Two of my work-mates are getting their gun licences and are in the market for their first rifles. Of course they talk to me a lot (although I suspect they think I migh be a bit biased towards Lee Enfields - can't imagine why, just because I have four of them and am trying to persuade them it really is the best choice!)

The 30-30 lever action seems to be a pretty neat pig gun but why are there no 375 Winchester lever actions out there?

How would the 6.5 Swede hold out for our conditions? Or course, I will not actually admit to liking that caliber! (Just because it is ballistically superior to the 303 Brit).

Gidday 303guy,

The 6.5x55 would be the top choice for NZ conditions.

In the bush with 120 to 140gr projectiles it will do the job without the slightest problem.

Down this way when loaded properly it makes a 270 look silly past 300m.

It boots less and is more economical to load and just plain works. I couldn't think of a better 1st centrefire (except the 260 which I gave my son for his birthday).

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Thanks, Hamish. That has been my suspicion! (Well, belief, actually). I'll show these two fellows your post, if I may.

They wouldn't go wrong with a 6.5, it really is about the perfect NZ calibre. I started with one and have now gone full circle, a 260which is just the short case. Another 6.5X55 will be back in the cuboard sometime soon. And those ex-mil ones a normally very accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
The 30-30 lever action seems to be a pretty neat pig gun but why are there no 375 Winchester lever actions out there?

I have quite a few compact rifles and they get some use here in SE Alaska. Some of our terrain I'm sure you would find familiar. We usually go with XTraTuf neoprene boots when the going gets slippery. Some of my hunting buddies even wear loggers calks for deer hunting.

For rifles, my 18.5" barrel Remington M600 in 308 probably sees as much use as any. I also hunt 2 stainless Marlin leverguns in 30/30 and 35 Remington and a 20" M700 Remington in 358.

The 30-30 has taken a nice leap forward with the new Hornady ammo (if you can get it there). Not every rifle shoots it well of course, but it makes a serious 150 yd. big game (e.g., elk) cartridge. My Marlin 336SS doesn't shoot the Hornady ammo well at all and I limit most of my 30/30 hunts to black bear or smaller game.

375s are pretty much relics these days. Closest thing recently was the 38-55 cowboy gun Marlin made a couple of years ago. Hornady is coming out with a 338 cartridge for leverguns that is supposed to have close to 30-06 ballistics out to 200 yards. I'll be taking a close look at that one.

There are quite a few compact bolt guns out there too. The new Ruger Hawkeye has both a 300 and 338 Compact Magnum cartridge designed for it. Savage makes a compact as does Browning (Micro Hunter) and there is always the venerable Remington Model 7. Some of those have barrels as short as 18.5" but most are 20 or 22.

For cartridges I've always liked the 308 and the short 35s. The 35s are real big game cartridges inside of 100 yds. I'll be taking a hard look at some of the short 338 offerings that seem to be the current rage.

I don't know how many of those show up in your part of the world, but good luck.

Thanks Guys! That is real interesting. I still think the 375 would make a good lever gun. I have mentioned before that my Dad hunted Cape Buffalo with a 35 Remington and once shot two with one shot. Killed the first with a heart shot and broke the shoulder of the of the second which was out of side behind the first, requiring a finishing shot. It was a short pump action. Make and model not known to me. (Cape buffalo are a tad bigger than moose - at least similar to Bison). Those are low pressure rounds, too. Mmmmm....