Hi! First post on the forum even though I´ve been reading quite a lot lately.

Anyhow, I´m looking into doing my first guided hunt (in New Zealand, looking for a tahr. We´ll be there on vacation in November so stags are out of the question) and would need some advise. I´m not in the financially state that a lot of the other members on this forum. Doing the research everyone says "don´t let the price make the decision for you". For me it is easy, either I go with an outfitter I´ve found (that has a significantly lower price compared to other companies), or I wont go at all. My heart says GO but my brain holds me back a bit.

I´ve been emailing with this guy and he seems ok, but what do I know? He has a few testemonials on his homepage but so does everyone and really, they do not tell you that much. He has shared a few movies and his actions and skills there seems fine by me. Apart from that, I´ve found little to none info about this guy on the internet. Would it be appropriate to state the name of the guy/company here and ask for opinions on this guy?

I´m not a very experienced hunter, I´ve done quite some moose hunting in Sweden where I live but that has always been of the kind where I sit in a blind (sometimes just sitting there and sometimes with the use of dogs). On a few occations I have accompanied the guy with the dog (but without success). However I really do love the outdoors and hunting and have a lot of hours spent in the forest/mountains.

Is it a bad idea to spend (for me) quite a big amount of money on doing a spot and stalk hunt in the mountains as a "first"? I´m in a pretty good shape so sweat, tough days, bad weather etc does not make me scared, rather the opposite. I like to see the power of nature.

Now back to the price, he is offering a 4 day foot hunt (heli to camp and back, included in the price) for a tahr at an equivalent of just below 2700 USD all in. The cheapest I´ve found apart from this guy was a special of 4000 USD, which I cannot afford, so, it is this guy or nothing. The hunt will be performed on public land and he says I could expect a tahr of about 13". If we the tahr is <12" there is no trophy fee to be paid and nannies are for free. This seems to be rare but again, is this deal "to good to be true" or have I just found a gold mine?

All input apprechiated!

I'm confused...is it $2700 all in or $2700 + trophy fee for over 13" tahr?

A total of 2700 USD including trophy fee (which is about 1400 USD). If a bull of less than 12" is taken, then no trophy fee is charged and that animal is for free and I would be able to continue hunting for a 12"+ bull.

quote:

Originally posted by F S:
A total of 2700 USD including trophy fee (which is about 1400 USD). If a bull of less than 12" is taken, then no trophy fee is charged and that animal is for free and I would be able to continue hunting for a 12"+ bull.

So if no 12" tahr is taken you'd pay $1300 for a helicopter supported hunt. I'd say it sounds too good to be true. A 12" tahr is a mighty good tahr.

Yep, that is whad this guy states. Fly out in the morgning day one, hunt on foot and stay in a tent camp and fly out on day 4 (or when the desired tahr has been taken).

I agree, I would rate a 12" tahr as a very successful hunt. Do you think I should just turn away or are there any other ways to check this guy up? He has been helpful but he has not been chasing me to make the final decision (like some other companies have that charge a lot more). If it was a fraud I´d guess he would be more eager to make me send the deposit money. As I said, all input is helpful.

I'd talk to several hunters that have hunted with him. Maybe check with the outfitter association in NZ.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
I'd talk to several hunters that have hunted with him. Maybe check with the outfitter association in NZ.

sheephunterab is giving solid advice as my first thought was that you need to contact hunters who have had the same experience that you described in your hunt description. If he cannot give you any, I would be very cautious.

Mate its OK to post his name and ask for references/ recommendations. Some one here may know him or hunted with him before. Or you may find out he's a crook. You wont know until you ask.

Sounds very cheap,too cheap really

There was a guy who a friend of mine hunted with (on public land) who had a similar price to that, for a public land hunt and my friend had a very good hunt. There are few on-ground costs in that apart from the helo and food - which makes it possible - and there is much better value in the US$ at the moment. You should post his details here.

Welcome FS

Generally helicopter time to fly in and out of a hunting area is quite short, our South Island is not very wide from one side to the other, so providing you do not go sightseeing in the chopper, the short hop in and out can be quite cheap, most guides or even local hunters can negotiate good deals on choppers. Flying in and out lets you take in enough gear for a comfortable stay and you will be on the ground and hunting quickly.

Our Department of Conservation who administer all public land including National Parks, recreational hunting areas, etc. encourage the shooting of nannies and yearling animals but in working with hunters, discourage the shooting of young potential trophy buck chamois and bull tahr. Nevertheless all game animals of any age and sex and in any quantity can be taken at any time of year on public land.

There are maybe restrictions on animals on private land but only because of what the landowner sets and not because of any government or wildlife rules.

In the tahr and chamois areas, both on the Westcoast and East coast of the South Island there are plenty of animals, it is just a matter of coming across good trophies and a lot of that will depend on fitness although the East Coast is by far easier to hunt that the West. In November, coming into our summer, the hunting will be easier on either Coast.

There are always young guys starting out into the guiding business, most have good hunting experience on the animals in the areas they are familiar with, and prices can vary quite a lot, depending on whether guiding is their prime business or just an interest for them in addition to maybe some other work such as jet boat touring etc.

Some of our guiding outfitters cater for the high end, big tipping market while others will offer more down to earth Kiwi style hunting.

BTW the practice of tipping is regarded with distaste in NZ and is not practiced by most Kiwis but for some reason many of our outfitters have followed this abhorrent practice. As far as our wage and payment for service levels go in New Zealand, the practice of taking or expecting tips is just greed and bowing to unwanted foreign introduced practices.


Your choice and your hunt, but I wouldn't be too concerned about the cheap price. There are plenty of videos on tahr and chamois shooting on U tube, it is just a matter of getting into the area and the World's your oyster providing foul weather does not upset it.

Best of luck for your hunt, please post a report if you do get to go.

Thanks for all the input while I was asleep. The guy is Dave Campbell from Outback Hunting New Zealand and the package I´m looking at is the "wilderness tahr hunt" at 3280 NZD + 600 NZD for the chopper to take us there and back (short lift, just as eagle27 predicted).

link

FS,
Eagle27 spells out the NZ situation very well. I don't know Dave Campbell but ( in my opinion only ) judging from what I see on his website I think he appears genuine, and caters to the more wage earning type of fellow rather than the more affluent hunters catered to by some of the big name / high end lodge type outfitters here. From Geraldine where he is based I presume it more likely he hunts the East Coast which generally is more accessible but still contains a fair share of quite gnarly terrain to test your hunting skills.
One suggestion if I may is please ensure a drive in option is available if necessary to get to hunting country. Even though November is Spring here it can also be a very windy time. On one occasion during November I couldn't helicopter onto the hill from lake Pukaki due to huge winds. Most experienced helicopter operators cope well with severe conditions but also recognise their limits. Tahr populations are reasonably strong currently and in November the bulls should be found in bachelor groups. A lot of capes will be past their best but it's possible to happen upon a bull with a cape in somewhat fair condition.
I agree that you should feel under no obligation on tipping. I doubt that Dave Campbell would be offended with none offered. You may want to communicate your views on this this upfront before booking should you decide to go ahead.
Looking through his photo gallery I think he has guided clients to some very good Tahr trophies. Several of those would exceed 12 inches I think.
Good luck to you if you decide to book the hunt. I love hunting Tahr and I'm sure it's a hunt you would never regret experiencing.

If you can afford it, want a simple arrangement and don't expect to come back to NZ, this hunt may make some sense (with the qualifications mentioned by eagle27 and 30.06king).

I have made three trips after tahr, all thanks to generous Kiwis linked to this forum, who took me out gratis - but admit that if I had to fly across the world for a once-only hunt, I might go with a pro.

I do like this from his page.

Q: Every year Outback Hunting has shot at least 2 record book Tahr, we aim to get the client quality not quantity. Just read the testimonials. If you are after one of the best foot hunts in the world, look no further than Outback Hunting, our records show that.:EQ

I do note there are mostly "ranch" type red stags on there also...this raises a a bit of thinking about other species too.

Hi I hunted with Dave this year ,great hunt please Pm if you need information

gryphon1: Pleasea elaborate more. English is not my first language and I´m not sure what you are trying to say.

Sambarman338: Sounds great to go hunt "free". I´ve been to NZ 5 times before in 2007-2011 (never hunted there though)and it is not unlikely that I end up there again, but it will probably be some 5-10 years into the future until next time.

If i go on a hunt in NZ I´d like to have good odds of getting a shot opportunity so going with a guide seems like a good idea to me. Especially since I have very little experience from spot and stalk hunts as well as mountain hunts.

FS
You will get plenty of shot opportunities with Dave form Outback hunting ,my mate and I saw twenty or more Tahr that were trophy quality
mate shot 12,12.5&a 13inch I got a 10" and 12" no charge for the 10" one
Dave and his wife are great people ,Dave works hard to make sure you get a trophy
all frwee range no fences

quote:

If you are after one of the best foot hunts in the world

If you are after one of the best foot hunts in the world

Well are they foot hunts in a fenced area or are they free range,it depends on what you want yourself.

Chris McCarthy offers on foot free range hunting,he`s good at it.Thats if it is what you want

I dont have contact details i`m sorry.

BTW for information purposes, there are no trophy fees payable in NZ for game animals. As I mentioned in my earlier post any of our game animals can be recreationally hunted and taken at any time of year in any quantity and of any sex and age. We do not have game animal seasons, licences, tags, or animal fees, trophy or otherwise. What may be called trophy fees are only those fees that guides or private land owners may impose themselves as part of their business. They do not pay these on to any wildlife agency or as a government imposed tax.

I can understand why trophy fees are used by commercial operators as it does give some way of offering a range of pricing for those that just want a good representative trophy to those that want a record book model

Like what Eagle said, .... I think I have heard a lot of good things about this guy. Do you homework.

Also check out Highlander who posts here on AR. His name is Gerald Telford. Explain your circumstances and see if he can come up with a suitable deal. I have hunted with him 20 years ago & he is very well connected & a real pro. He can drive to properties, arrange average cost basic but comfortable lodging & keep costs down.

Most private properties charge $1000 to $2000 trophy fees but the large bulls cost a lot more - going to stupid figures like $10k for bulls in the 14" class.

Another option is to contact the Chopper operator Jamie Scott directly & see if he can help you set up with a local guide. This would be free range & a rough hunt by international standards & cheaper too. You would need to factor in your travel to the west coast - fly or bus from Christchurch or Queenstown.

Here is how the costs work roughly

* Trophy fees normally goes to the land owner
* Any outfitter charging trophy fee for free range bulls is spreading his bets - not a bad thing as long as the total cost is reasonable - a win win situation
* Lodging cost - most will charge for high end lodges over $250 per day but good lodging can be as low as $80 a night
* Guiding cost - average day rates in NZ can range from $200 to $450 - a BIG spread - again driven by the high end market and what people are prepared to pay
* Helicopter ride - standard cost - easy to get the info from the chopper operators

I would not pay a single cent in Tips - that is just greed and dishonesty in NZ. A 17 year old working in a supermarket or a restaurant earns $15.50 to $17 per hour. No justification for tips.

You might leave behind a gift as a show of appreciation.

Wish you all the best.

I wouldn't be taking guide advice from a chopper operator - not unless you want a 2 hour hunt. No offence meant to Jamie Scott- who I do not know.

That be correct " who I do not know."

His name is James.

Matt
FYI, I too would not bother with advice from most helicopter pilots, particularly ones I don't know. However James Scott is a notable exception. I might not take his advice either if offered, but would still weigh it up. James is a long term operator on the South Islands West Coast, earning an enviable reputation for sterling service to hunters over that time. He walks the walk & talks the talk. He is a total straight shooter and donates much gratis time and service to outdoors managers and participants of the West Coast area. I have never met anyone who spoke ill of James.

Thanks guys - now of course I HAVE heard of James Scott - but never met him!!

Thanks a lot for a lot of helpful information and tips. I feel like people are relly trying to help out and I really apprechiate it. I´ll keep the information provided in my mind and report back on how this works out!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Thanks guys - now of course I HAVE heard of James Scott - but never met him!!

Even I've flown with him, Matt - someone who never goes anywhere much . IIRC he bears a passing resemblance to Burke of the Backyard. I'm sorry to say I think he may have owned that chopper that crashed at Fox Glaxier last year.

James is one of the best and knows the South Westland and Southern Alps main divide area like the back of his hand. One of the top chopper pilots in the meat shooting era and now has built up a company with multiple machines serving the tourist and hunter trade.

Flown with him on numerous occasions and shot some chamois from his machine (for research purposes), looked for tahr too but the German professor who wanted the head glands from the animals got sick, don't know whether from fear or just air sickness, but we returned to base after picking up a couple of stags that James and his shooter has shot earlier in the day. The weather clagged in and James had to deftly drop into some step and shitty gullies to get under the clag. I think that's what finally turned the poor professors stomach. At least he held on till we landed and then let rip much too our amusement, not the sort of thing a well respecting German hunter would do but all in a days fun for us.

I put another German friend of mine onto James who dropped him into huts or bivvy sites in the Alps (summertime)and left him to do an evening and morning shoot, picking up around lunchtime next day and dropping him into another spot. From memory he did three days and got some good representative chamois and a smallish red stag and tahr.

My friend was a Doctor, had spent some time in the army and was quite confident on his own. He had had a few trips out here in NZ and had adapted well to our rough and ready style so being dropped off in the Alps on his own didn't phase him at all.
James will do this today for anyone too but you do need to have confidence in our remote and rugged country if on your own or even accompanied by others.

James Scott preparing animals to attach to his chopper, I had the honors of doing that and getting a static belt off the hook and then crawling out from under the hovering skid to get on board - initiating the professor into chopper hunting.


My German friends rewards for trusting James to drop him off to hunt and picking him up next day to go to a new area - photo taken on my back lawn after we boiled and cleaned all the heads ready for their journey back to Germany.



James about to lift off after dropping us in the Southern Alps for a weeks tahr hunting.

Caveat Emptor, and if that confuses your English please google it.

I'm obviously bais but if a guide is NOT a member of the NZ Professional Hunting Guides you need to ask yourself why.

Pay peanuts you get monkeys.

LOL - I'll bite - Why then?

And being a member of a totally unregulated and self-serving NZ Professional Hunting Guide association is a guarantee of...what exactly? By who?

This might be the place for you to explain hunting guide licensing in New Zealand.

I shall make a cup of tea.

Carlson is right. Being a member of the NZPHGA means nothing. It has no legal standing.
I had a flick through his Thar photos. plenty of good ones there, plenty of ordinary or small ones as well. A mix of public land and farm land in there too.
To be fair, a 12 inch Tahr is very realistic But also, its not the be all and end all. There are many tahr that are very old that dont reach 12. More important is that its not a young animal.
November means you will miss out on the other real trophy on a Tahr..... Its winter cape.
I have been in the position you are in, not having the money you need for a garantee of a good operator, and my situation turned out badly.. But if its what you have, then its what you have.
I would say take the risk, if its not up to standard, then stand your ground and if he takes you into the NZ mountains on a tent trip, it will be an adventure anyway.
Ask him what valley he will take you into. We should have some idea of numbers from that.

Thanks to eagle 27 for the post on James Scott. That is the kind of hunt I was thinking of. If you are lucky and have local contacts in NZ (you did say you have been here 5 times), you may be able to get a hunter from the local Deerstalkers club to accompany you.

Not sure what went with the first attempted post, cold tahr hunters fingers maybe.

Couple of points of fact, which will no doubt be mistaken by some.

If you are a hunting guide operating on public land ,member of NZPHGA or not you must have a concession from DoC to operate commercially.
Part of that concession is the paying of trophy fees to DoC for animals harvested, so how can there be no fee for a Tahr less than 12 inches!

I'd also challenge the doubters out there on the NZPHGA having no authority within our industry( tourism operators) whilst the NZPHGA may not be in a position to control all guides it most certainly has policy and regulatory support from DoC and Tourism NZ.

NZPHGA cannot demand membership from all guides operating legally or otherwise in NZ but it is certainly a much easy road to go down to being compliate and official sanctioned and endorsed by the managers of our public lands.
Again why would you not want to bea member( hiding something, not paying fees! Operating without a safety plan and emergency procedure, not trained. List goes on and on.
So do your self a favour and go with a registered guide and continue to do due diligence even then.

Excellent advice.