These used to be relatively plentiful at good prices here in the States. Do you fellas still care for and shoot these warhorses down your way? A lot of history in these rifles, and I have found all of the SMLE family to be very nicely accurate when the barrel is still good.

Not from down under but the first (maybe second) military rifle I got was a Lithgow #1; back then you could just order them right through the mail; $24. I still have it. Very fast; I have a bet I make with people at the range; you take your M1 and I take my #1Mk3 (or #4). Whoever fires ten shots first wins. They always say; no way; I have an automatic. They are forgetting they only have 8 shots and I have 10, and they are very fast. And an M1 is hard to load single shot! Don't take your fingers off the bolt handle; old Scottish Highlander trick. Pull the trigger with your middle finger.

Just don't really see these around much now. With young kids seemingly able to spend a few thousand on Japanese imported second hand cars and NZ new used cars, the price of new rifle packages (scope, bag, etc) at around $700 to $1500 sees a lot of new Marlin XL or S rifles, Remington SPS's, Ruger's, Thompson Contenders, you name it they are all readily available. New Tikka's and Weatherby Vanguard's are great buys around the $1200 mark too and very popular.

Many of the old timers like me have also taken to these light and accurate plastic fantastics so we are not role models to the younger set when it comes to the old firearms of the past such as the SMLE's. Even the old military ammo that used to be so cheap and readily available is no longer and no self respecting young guy getting into hunting would ever be seen toting a 303 with hard ball ammo. Got to be the black or camo plastic stock, good scope, and nearly 100% a bipod hanging off their rifles. It seems almost every second rifle I see in use now has a suppressor fitted too or certainly a good percentage of them.

I'm afraid apart from a few enthusiasts the SMLE is on the way to extinction as far as a hunting rifle is concerned.

There are tens of thousands of Lithgow SMLE's in Australia - many still in use by sportsmen and property owners, mainly sporterised but the original versions are popular with collectors too. Lithgow factory of course is in Australia, still in use to some extent (now owned by French company Thales) and the local SMLE was the standard issue to Australian troops through two World Wars.

I like that story, dpcd.
Someone told me that the SMLE was also highly regarded by your countrymen in WWII and that American soldiers often offered to swap rifles with the Aussies in Pacific because of reliability considerations. How that would work in practice beats me, though, as there's nothing more unreliable than a rifle you haven't got ammo for.

As to whether they are still used and valued here, yes, there are aficionados and clubs and we don't cut them down for sporters much any more. This probably began earlier here than in places where the military disposals were front-locking designs that could be turned into more-powerful or flatter-shooting sporters.

My hunting mate bought one from the son of an aged neighbour recently for $300. The old man had supposedly used it in Borneo, though I'm not sure whether soldiers were allowed to keep their issued rifles after the war. Anyway, the barrel is so good that it is probably worth $600 at least.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Very fast; I have a bet I make with people at the range; you take your M1 and I take my #1Mk3 (or #4). Whoever fires ten shots first wins. They always say; no way; I have an automatic. They are forgetting they only have 8 shots and I have 10, and they are very fast. And an M1 is hard to load single shot! Don't take your fingers off the bolt handle; old Scottish Highlander trick. Pull the trigger with your middle finger.

I like that story, dpcd.
Someone told me that the SMLE was also highly regarded by your countrymen in WWII and that American soldiers often offered to swap rifles with the Aussies in Pacific because of reliability considerations. How that would work in practice beats me, though, as there's nothing more unreliable than a rifle you haven't got ammo for.

As to whether they are still used and valued here, yes, there are aficionados and clubs and we don't cut them down for sporters much any more. This probably began earlier here than in places where the military disposals were front-locking designs that could be turned into more-powerful or flatter-shooting sporters.

My hunting mate bought one from the son of an aged neighbour recently for $300. The old man had supposedly used it in Borneo, though I'm not sure whether soldiers were allowed to keep their issued rifles after the war. Anyway, the barrel is so good that it is probably worth $600 at least.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Very fast; I have a bet I make with people at the range; you take your M1 and I take my #1Mk3 (or #4). Whoever fires ten shots first wins. They always say; no way; I have an automatic. They are forgetting they only have 8 shots and I have 10, and they are very fast. And an M1 is hard to load single shot! Don't take your fingers off the bolt handle; old Scottish Highlander trick. Pull the trigger with your middle finger.

I like that story, dpcd.
Someone told me that the SMLE was also highly regarded by your countrymen in WWII and that American soldiers often offered to swap rifles with the Aussies in Pacific because of reliability considerations. How that would work in practice beats me, though, as there's nothing more unreliable than a rifle you haven't got ammo for.

As to whether they are still used and valued here, yes, there are aficionados and clubs and we don't cut them down for sporters much any more. This probably began earlier here than in places where the military disposals were front-locking designs that could be turned into more-powerful or flatter-shooting sporters.

My hunting mate bought one from the son of an aged neighbour recently for $300. The old man had supposedly used it in Borneo, though I'm not sure whether soldiers were allowed to keep their issued rifles after the war. Anyway, the barrel is so good that it is probably worth $600 at least.

That story about offering to swap sounded highly sus .... but you mentioned a few objections yourself, so ... I mean, I wasn't there.

A mint SMLE or No 4 of any type nowadays would be worth quite a bit as a Service shooter or a collector, I can't really see many people cutting them down.

On the other hand having one that had been stuck behind the driver's seat of a ute for pig shooting and continuing to use it - I can see that.

BTW - when I was still in RSA, for a while there was a craze for rebarreling the No4 to 6mm Musgrave (basically 303-243). Oz had a number of those wildcats. How popular are they in the rest of Oz? I know the 303-25 is fairly popular in WA (not the 303-270 0or 303-243).

Bren

Post WWII there were a whole series of .303-based calibres popular in Oz, from .303/.22 (shortened versions and full-length), through .303/.243,.303/.25 to .303/270. There was also the 7.7x54, a shortened cartridge based on the chamber you get when you cut one turn off the breech end of a .303 barrel. The SMLE actions were also converted to .22 Hornet and .410.

The reasons were these: for a while post-war there were very few sporter rifles imported, but there were hundreds of thousands of surplus .303s, especially after we changed over to the L1A1 in the fifties. At the same time there were restrictions on the ownership of military calibre rifles (hence the 7.7x54 in particular).

Some of these calibres were even produced as factory ammo by local manufacturers such as Riverbrand. I think the .303/25 would have been most popular.

There's still plenty of these rifles around in Oz, but their heyday is long past. They do tend to be very cheap, so can make a utilitarian ute rifle. Unmolested SMLEs on the other hand - which might have fetched $30 or so in the late 70s, are now going for several hundred.

In my parts, unmolested Lee Enfield's, particularly the older ones (pre-SMLE). I have a 303-25 Lithgow - a superb cartridge in my opinion but one I think would be better suited to the No.4 but only by a fraction.

I'd like to know more about the 7.7x54.

Between about 1948 and the early 70s ownership of rifles in military calibres was restricted in NSW, Australia's most populous state. There were exemptions: members of rifle clubs for example (covered at the time under the Commonwealth Defence Act).

There were still truckloads of .303 rifles on hand, and demand for them, so a Sydney gunsmith named Jack Pollard came up with the idea of simply taking the barrel off, cutting a thread from the breech end and refitting it. The shorter chamber would (in theory though not always in practice) be too small for .303 cartridges to chamber, thus beating the restriction. Ammunition could be produced by taking .303 rounds, pulling the bullet, sizing down and trimming to suit the shorter chamber and reseating the bullet. Once the idea took hold local ammunition makers such as Riverbrand and Super produced ammunition in this calibre too, whose ballistics matched the standard .303.



HTH

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Not from down under but the first (maybe second) military rifle I got was a Lithgow #1; back then you could just order them right through the mail; $24. I still have it. Very fast; I have a bet I make with people at the range; you take your M1 and I take my #1Mk3 (or #4). Whoever fires ten shots first wins. They always say; no way; I have an automatic. They are forgetting they only have 8 shots and I have 10, and they are very fast. And an M1 is hard to load single shot! Don't take your fingers off the bolt handle; old Scottish Highlander trick. Pull the trigger with your middle finger.

The old Scottish Highlander trick was to my knowledge developed by the ANZACs at Gallipolli. Hold the rifle into the shoulder with the left hand, work bolt with Thumb and forefinger, fire with middle finger. They could get off more than 60 rounds a minute reloading with charger clips. Worked well when used against mass frontal assault charges.

I dont have any Lithy's but have a couple of No5 Jungle carbines. Excellent hunting rifle.

More than sixty rounds a minute?? I'd like to see that....

Maybe it was a rate of 60 rounds a minute: ie that you could could fire 10 shots in 10 seconds with a fully loaded magazine - still not bad.

The actual fastest rate as in number of rounds fired was quoted as 90 rounds fired in the minute. That I would like to see.

However most of the diggers could fire 60+ rounds a minute. Took a bit of practice but they had the incentive and the shots are not at long ranges with minimal sighting. The reloading with the charger clips was the slowdown as with practice you can get more than 1 shot a second away.

Matt if you want to see it, grab a SMLE and practice.

I'm pretty familiar with the SMLE, trained with one, own one and a supply of chargers too. I'm also familiar with the technique described. Once you factor in time to reload, to achieve 60 rounds in a minute you are closer to a sustained two rounds a second between reloads, and I have to say I have serious doubts about that, let alone 90 rpm, even shooting without aiming at all. Maybe the story grew better in the telling

Do you have a source for these figures?

dan_oz the figures were published in an article in Guns Australia back in the 90's and scources quoted. from memory they named an English Army firearms instructor who managed the 90 a minute. If this was the case I would say the guy was a freak. Bit like some of the quick draw blokes who draw empty the cylinder and holster in bloody quick time.

No offence but training wise would you have trained as frequently and as hard as those actualy using the rifle in combat.

Having used the charger clips and watched others use them some are way quicker than I was and a couple of blokes I watched did not remove the rifle from the shoulder while charging the magazine.

As far as I am aware not all would of been this quick.

The only rapid fire record I am aware of set by a British Instructor with the SMLE was that set by Sergeant (Instructor) Snoxall of the Small Arms Training School, set at Hythe in 1914, who made 38 in a minute to beat the previous record of 37 set by Sgt Maj. Wallingford. These were admittedly aimed shots, all within the 36" inner at 300 yards - but that isn't a particularly high degree of accuracy though, and AFAIK this was shot from a "parapet, supported" position, rested on sandbags. It is nonetheless an impressive performance.

The Anzacs fought well, no doubt about that, but I continue to think that this account of 60, let alone 90 in a minute is a story which grew better in the telling.

quote:

Originally posted by dan_oz:
The only rapid fire record I am aware of set by a British Instructor with the SMLE was that set by Sergeant (Instructor) Snoxall of the Small Arms Training School, set at Hythe in 1914, who made 38 in a minute to beat the previous record of 37 set by Sgt Maj. Wallingford. These were admittedly aimed shots, all within the 36" inner at 300 yards - but that isn't a particularly high degree of accuracy though, and AFAIK this was shot from a "parapet, supported" position, rested on sandbags. It is nonetheless an impressive performance.

The Anzacs fought well, no doubt about that, but I continue to think that this account of 60, let alone 90 in a minute is a story which grew better in the telling.

I believe you are right about Sgt Snoxall.

The rest, well just going off what I have read.

Time seems to slow down when the adrenaline runs and doubtless some fast strings have been fired with bolt actions.

A clean self-loader is less likely to suffer African short-stroke, for all that.

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:
The actual fastest rate as in number of rounds fired was quoted as 90 rounds fired in the minute. That I would like to see.

However most of the diggers could fire 60+ rounds a minute. Took a bit of practice but they had the incentive and the shots are not at long ranges with minimal sighting. The reloading with the charger clips was the slowdown as with practice you can get more than 1 shot a second away.

Matt if you want to see it, grab a SMLE and practice.

How about you try and fire 6 clips in 60 seconds?? Would make an interesting Youtube clip!!

I seriously doubt any fighting force could achieve that rate of fire, with that equipment.

That rate of fire does sound incredible. I realise the ANZACS had all the motivation in the world, but to get 60 rounds out, you'd have to work the bolt 60 times as well as pull the trigger AND load 10 stripper clips all in 60 seconds. I don't see it. I really don't, with the best will in the world.

I'd like to see it if it could be done, it'd sound like someone shooting 10 round bursts out of a Bren gun

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rule 303:
The actual fastest rate as in number of rounds fired was quoted as 90 rounds fired in the minute. That I would like to see.

However most of the diggers could fire 60+ rounds a minute. Took a bit of practice but they had the incentive and the shots are not at long ranges with minimal sighting. The reloading with the charger clips was the slowdown as with practice you can get more than 1 shot a second away.

Matt if you want to see it, grab a SMLE and practice.

How about you try and fire 6 clips in 60 seconds?? Would make an interesting Youtube clip!!

I seriously doubt any fighting force could achieve that rate of fire, with that equipment.[/QUOT

Matt do you mean Clips or Magazines. Like I said I couldn't do it if you want you can try.

You are all free to do you own research. As I sad just going off an article that was published.

Wildcatting the .303 was also very popular in Canada.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rule 303:

I seriously doubt any fighting force could achieve that rate of fire, with that equipment.[/QUOT

Thinking of the austerity required back then, I doubt whether any fighting force would want you to fire that fast, either. That ammo would be a large proportion of what a soldier carried - and pity help him if he was ahead of supply and the fight went on for any time.

I believe it was the British standing army that had the training to rapid fire the Lee Enfield at the outset of the Great War and while the actual general rate of fire might have varied, the Germans in the oposing trenches were convinced they were facing many semiautomatic rifles. As these men were replaced or suplemented by freshly trained troops who hadn't had the prolonged training the ability gradually lapsed. Rapid firing was not a general way of using the rifle but the training was there for when it was needed, as in facing charging enemy, and in those circumstances using ammo against being overrun makes the decision simple.

I think this is a job for mythbusters...

Someone has been exaggerating.

But rapid fire was still part of the .303 training and for (school) cadets in NZ right up until they got rid of it, and you had to qualify with 20 rounds in 30 secs I think, which meant you had to reload at speed with the chargers and pull that off.

I think 30 rounds per minute was standard for a mad minute, and is not really too difficult to do at all.

(Sgt Snoxhall, set his record for rapid fire in 1928 from memory, but it was for aimed fire at a target 300 yards away, from the prone position.)

As for the shooting with the middle finger while holding the bolt handle in the fingers, I don't know if that was ever used for real. I have talked to WW2 and NZ Malaya veterans who used the 'jungle' carbine, and they told me they would shoot the .303 as quick as they could and try and make the enemy think they had a semi auto. They never mentioned any special technique. I mean its a .303, its easy enough already to shoot fast. First I ever heard of it was on the interweb....
They would have much rather have had the semi auto is what I take from that...

I met a meat shooter who went to using the .303 again from choppers in the sixties before they all got FNs and Sigs and they did it for the large magazine and the speed you could work the action. He said it as not uncommon until the boys could get their hands on automatic rifles.

Using several mag fulls quickly and regularly stuffed the barrels quite quickly. I still have heavy Lithgow barrelled SMLE in the safe. Hasn't been fired since about 1970. Think I'll bequeath it to Carlsen Highway.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Someone has been exaggerating.

But rapid fire was still part of the .303 training and for (school) cadets in NZ right up until they got rid of it, and you had to qualify with 20 rounds in 30 secs I think, which meant you had to reload at speed with the chargers and pull that off.

I think 30 rounds per minute was standard for a mad minute, and is not really too difficult to do at all. . .

Now you mention it, my father told me about doing the 'mad minute' for practice in WWII, so they can't have been that short of ammo.