Hello all. Thought I’d post this in the Australian section as what I’m looking for is an article about culling water Buffalo in the Northern Territory. I’ve been a big fan of the TKO (Taylor knockout system) for determining effectiveness of various hunting rounds. It uses a mathematical formula using Bullet weight, velocity and diameter to determine its knockout power. I’ve used this formula since 1974 when I first read about it. 46 years later I read an article that threw it all into question. The article was about a water Buffalo cull that was carried out by veterinarians. They noticed that some animals died instantly while others did not. All shots were into the heart area. When they performed necropsys on the animals they found that the ones that died instantly had ruptured blood vessels in their brains, while those that didn’t die instantly, did not have ruptured vessels. Their hypothesis was that if the Bullet and its shockwave pass through or near the heart just as the valves were opening up leading to the brain, the shock wave would travel through the artery and burst the blood vessels. It made a lot of sense and threw into doubt the TKO system. The problem is I can’t find the article and I don’t remember where I read it, but I would like to read it again. If anyone knows of the article I would appreciate a link to it. Thanks.

Don't know much about the TKO (I'm more a "Just get a good bullet in the right place" kinda guy). Interesting hypothesis about the open heart valves however.

The TKO has been misquoted a lot since the internet came about. Originally Taylor quoted it for comparing knockdown power on elephants, particulary after missed brain shots. He contended near misses would still knock the animal out for a certain length of time, I think it was 10 mins for 470, half hour for 600 nitro. These days people use TKO for everything from body shooting brown bear with 338 win to marketing the latest revolver cartridge.

Even in its original guise I think it has been pretty much debunked. When the folks on this forum started connecting 15-20 years ago we had more field data and personal experiences to compare on African game than probably any time in history. And I dont think Taylors observations on ''near brain elephant knockouts'' have been borne out with any regularity. I am not sure what effect Taylor was reporting on. Its almost sacrilege to call him a liar or bullshitter so the only other option is to give him the benefit of the doubt that something he was seeing back then....just aint happening very often now.

The Australian ivory hunter, John Dawkins, hunting in the 1950's/1960's was mentored by Pondoro Taylor. Dawkins was a strong advocate of using the stunning shot just missing the brain on charging cow elephants. It doesn't seem to have always worked for him using a 450/400. Does anyone know what happened to him? His son Victor would be about 70 now.

No hunter deliberately uses a miss brain shot or advocates its use. Its more a case of hoping it works if you do miss. And its been pretty much born out its not reliable

That youtube video documenting the fella that started the buff abattoir in the NT has him shooting 25,000 buffalo with head shots.
With a .308 too.

I don't care for it anymore. I go by bullet construction and design. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
That youtube video documenting the fella that started the buff abattoir in the NT has him shooting 25,000 buffalo with head shots.
With a .308 too.

Head shots are fine. I meant relying on taylors stun factor for missed brain shots on elephant.

From what I have seen, there is no good answer as to what is going to happen. You don't know until after you pull the trigger. I've seen animals fall dead with what appeared to be a small wound, one you would think would maybe cripple. I've seen animals go a fair distance with heart and liver pulverized. So, my theory is you don't know until you pull the trigger.

Biggest factor in my opinion, as to how quickly an animal drops, is has it seen you before you shoot?

I dont know about that, when the bullet hits the sweet spot above his eyes into his brain he has no choice.

Oh thats a given. its the non brain or spine shots im talking about.

Some times its the only option.

Yep, see the recent post of mine with the 22 and doe. though on that one id still probable consider I can see enough of shoulder to take a chest shot. That fern isn't hiding much.

Chest? Yes....some blokes will tell you that a 22.250 is enuff gun...retards.

With a .22-250 I would give him one in the neck.

I think just about every formula is just rubbish after I had shot enough stags with a .44-40 and a .222.

The TKO thing I thought was rubbish when I read it, and the old footpounds of energy measurement I thought was at the best, misleading.

You can't measure killing effect and put it on a graph.

It is total Kangaroo shit mate!

Animals cannot read.

They cannot understand energy tables.

They cannot tell one caliber from the other.

Get the right bullet in the right place and that is the end of it.

For culling anything from a 308 Winchester up is going to work.

Shoot them in the head, and that will be the end of them.

I shot my water buff with a .308 shooting 150gr hollow points and it was laying in a wallow. Must of did something right as it didn't get up

I have to agree that it doesn’t make much sense. Just another way to try to determine caliber efficiency. Like some of the posters above, I agree that Bullet construction and shot placement are the most important along with adequate velocity.