https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JStiCuq-ClY ...

1st shot at 16sec. mark.
2nd shot at 19 sec mark
..................23 sec mark, PH urges client to reload
3rd shot at 27 sec mark
4th shot at 35 sec mark

4 shots spread over 19 seconds , with gaps of 3,8,8, respectively.

at the 23 sec mark, we clearly hear the PH begin to strongly command the client to reload for the oncoming Buff.

ie; 4 seconds after his 2nd shot, the client had still not reloaded....

Lever gun is quicker, but would you trust it not to fail?

Makes a big difference if you have spare bullets positioned better for easy access, hold your ground if you can until loaded and a scope also makes it harder to load a double.

He made it hard on himself in a number of ways.

His set up for the first shot meant he had to
move the gun and come around the tree after the
first shot. The he was partially hindered by that bush to his left for the second shot and then he had to negotiate the bush to get into view of the Buff - and then of course reload.

So him having to think about trees / bushes etc
meant he wasn't thinking about reloading.

And as others have said, having ammo readily available.

Plus, maybe he didn't have the automatic sequence / muscle memory thing down pat yet ?

if that bull had kept coming it would have been
interesting.

I honestly didn't think it took him that long given the situation he was in. The thing that struck me was the PH coming in from the front to check if the buffalo was dead. What happens if the buffalo jumps up and comes when you stick the gun barrel in his eye? I was taught to always approach from the rear if possible and assume the buffalo is still alive.

Mark

Familiarity with your rifle.Before you go hunting.

Mike

Strange that there are now water buffalo in Africa? After all this is in African hunting correct?

Yes, not sure why it was placed on the Africa section.

The PH, Graham is an Australian PH.

I think it all goes back to what Bill Stewart has said and been excoriated on these forums for... no matter how quick you are on paper, everything changes when you are hunting game in the field. The animal simply doesn't play by "your" script! And everyone doesn't always handle those situations and their rifle the same... that is what makes us human.

Mark

Re approach, so was I, or at least try another part of the body before poking the eye.

Graham has been doing it a long time,
he might have seen how it went down or
seen something that we didn't that means
he approached from the front on this occasion.

What exactly is your question with this film and/or what are you trying to say about the time lapses between shots?

1st shot taking 16 seconds is not unusual with the only tree he has to rest against is swaying in the wind, and there are a lot of sticks between the shooter and the kill zone on the buff.

2nd shot takes 3 seconds because the buff moves immediately requiring the shooter to change positions to avoid the saplings to get a clean shot on the now moving buff.

The call for the reload that is already in progress is when the buff changes direction and decides to come. This also requires the shooter to move twice again to get a clean shots through the saplings to get off shots 3 and four.

The next reload is while moving to gain a space between the trees for the insurance finisher. The hunter is moving around I suspect to spine the downed buff, and is told to go the other way for a brain shot, requiring more seconds.

The time laps in getting off shots, and the re-loads, in this case, were justified mainly by the saplings that had to be taken into consideration, but the set-up could have been a bit better on the hunters part.


The first thing may be that the double the hunter was shooting, I assume, was a smaller chambering, not making enough impact of the buff with the first shot. Either that or he may have been using all solids instead of shooting a soft for the first shot, followed by all solids as is normal when hunting cape or water buffalo. I can’t get a good look at the client’s double, but I think it may be an early extractor Merkel chambered for 375 H&H magnum. The belted-rimless cartridge requiring the pulling out the empties with the fingers rather than simply dumping the empties if they had been flanged cartridges. The large scope also hindering this re-loading process.

But the second shot was at a moving buff that at that point was running away. The shouts to re-load came when the buff changed direction and was coming back. I doubt, at that point, the PH was looking at anything other than that buffalo, and shouting to re-load which was already in progress. The third shot stopped the buff in his tracks and turned him as he was going down, with the fourth shot putting him down, Then the re-load was in progress as the hunter was changing position to spine the downed buff, but was told by the PH to go the other way to get in position for a brainer.

The reloads were certainly slowed by having to dig ammo out of his left pocket, and the scope didn’t expedite the re-loading either. That being said I think the multiple saplings hindered getting off all the shots after the first one. I believe the shots were pretty well taken care of by the hunter, but his method of ammo access needs work. If you will notice he always kept his eyes on the target while negotiating some difficult footing.

All in all I think the client hunter handled himself pretty well, and as Mark said the PH’s approach to the downed buff could have been done safer by approaching from the buff’s back or from it’s butt, again as is the normal way for an experienced PH. One thing you can say in favor of this PH, he didn’t shoot the client’s buffalo!
......................................................................

The shooter def put the rounds on target
and for that at that range he did well
IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
The shooter def put the rounds on target
and for that at that range he did well
IMHO.

That was my first thought the first time I viewed this film. The shooter was dead on with every shot.

IMO, three things hindered the time factor, first and foremost the saplings, then the stowing the re-load ammo in a pocket, and finally I believe the scope was in the way. However the extractor rifle if chambered for a rimless, or belted/rimless cartridge was a factor as well.

Again IMO, if this had happened in the open, you would have seen the whole thing happen a lot faster.

.....................................................................

Mac

Def agree with your first two points.
They were critical.

I have a scoped Merkel extractor, yes, it is
a different sequence but you can still tip
the gun up and the shells mostly fall out.
But again, he would have found that a nightmare
with the saplings.

I hunt in very similar country and setting
one's self up is vital. The direction an
animal is facing is a good indication of
the direction he will run (if he doesn't turn
and run directly away) so the guy def hindered
himself by shooting from where he did.

Re the PH walking up from in front,
having looked at the video again it
was probably because of the final
brain shot the client put in and
how the animal reacted to that.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Re the PH walking up from in front,
having looked at the video again it
was probably because of the final
brain shot the client put in and
how the animal reacted to that.

It did seem it was brained, but IMO Mat should have let the client go ahead and spine the buff the way it seems he was headed. As it turned out every shot the client made was spot on, as you say!

I have two Merkels, one a 140E-1 9.3X74R with ejectors, and the other is a 140-2 .470NE extractor, On my 140E-1 ( the "E" for ejectors) and I can live with either rifle but in a dangerous game double, especially an extractor rifle I definitely prefer a flanged cartridge. I simply do not trust the pawl system for the ejector rifle needed for rimless or especially a BELTED rimless cartridge.

That is simply a personal thing with me, but I think one born of experience.

I would like to hunt with Mat Graeme some day. I hunted Australia for buffalo many years ago before Africa, likely before Mat was born. I have been thinking about another trip down under lately. They seem to have some very good buffalo in their hunting area.

I see in their website they recommend a scoped rifle, but I don't think my 470NE Merkel will be scoped any time soon. Though I have several scoped big bore bolt rifles I prefer to hunt buffalo with a double rifle. I might agree to one of the little Trijicon 1.1-5x24 scopes on my 470NE however.

......................................................good hunting! .........

Mac

The PH was a guy named Graham Williams.

I thought it was Matt Graham as well from the voice until I saw the PH in the video and then looked at the description below the video which confirmed it was Graham Williams.

Either way, you can't go wrong with Matt Graham.

quote:

It did seem it was brained, but IMO Mat should have let the client go ahead and spine the buff the way it seems he was headed.

Not sure what you mean by let the client go ahead and so spine the buff the way it was headed.

From my experience, I don't think you can be that precise on an animal that large that is running.


He got it on the ground which was good and then
finished it - with as we both think, a brain shot.

If he didn't have a scoped rifle, I would have got a bit closer.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Strange that there are now water buffalo in Africa? After all this is in African hunting correct?

The moderator did not feel the need to move the American soil located paper target demo [re: SxS vs Bolt Rifle speed],
out of the African hunting forum.

yet actual hunting footage of DG like Buff taken by SxS,that seems more relevant to most any DG hunters,.. gets moved...

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I think it all goes back to what Bill Stewart has said and been excoriated on these forums for... no matter how quick you are on paper, everything changes when you are hunting game in the field. The animal simply doesn't play by "your" script! And everyone doesn't always handle those situations and their rifle the same... that is what makes us human.

...

quote:

The time laps in getting off shots, and the re-loads, in this case, were justified mainly by the saplings that had to be taken into consideration,

Real world DG hunting can mean you have brush-foilage[and other interferences] in your way a lot of the times,
causing hunters to often be delaying/extending the time-sequence of shots.

Ones ideological time frame of getting off a sequence of shots as rapidly as one can,[proven in paper tiger'lab tests']
is often quite different to real world DG hunting situations and how shot time frames actually pan out
once faced with all the possible variables and unpredictability of a real DG hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

It did seem it was brained, but IMO Mat should have let the client go ahead and spine the buff the way it seems he was headed.

Not sure what you mean by let the client go ahead and so spine the buff the way it was headed.

From my experience, I don't think you can be that precise on an animal that large that is running.


He got it on the ground which was good and then
finished it - with as we both think, a brain shot.

If he didn't have a scoped rifle, I would have got a bit closer.

505G, what I was referring to was when the buff was already down. The client was moving while re-loading around where he could shoot the buff in the back just behind the shoulders into the spine.

This is often done in Africa on downed Cape buffalo, and rhino instead of approaching the downed animal from the front. At the point where the client was moving , while re-loading we hear the PH tell him to go the other way, and shoot him in the brain. That is OK, as long as you don’t get too close in a frontal approach. If the animal is only stunned and rises suddenly the brain will be very hard to hit, and if he is not stopped in his tracks he will likely hurt you. If approached from his back or from behind, and he rises he will give you far more time to sort him out.

Like Mark Young, I have always been told to approach a downed buffalo toward his back if lying on his side, or from the butt end if on his belly. It matters not in this case because he brained him very neatly.

I’d say this client did very well under the conditions he was operating with.

........................................................................

Mac

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I understand where you are coming from.

Yes, client did do well.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I think it all goes back to what Bill Stewart has said and been excoriated on these forums for... no matter how quick you are on paper, everything changes when you are hunting game in the field. The animal simply doesn't play by "your" script! And everyone doesn't always handle those situations and their rifle the same... that is what makes us human.

...

quote:

The time laps in getting off shots, and the re-loads, in this case, were justified mainly by the saplings that had to be taken into consideration,

Real world DG hunting can mean you have brush-foilage[and other interferences] in your way a lot of the times,
causing hunters to often be delaying/extending the time-sequence of shots.

Ones ideological time frame of getting off a sequence of shots as rapidly as one can,[proven in paper tiger'lab tests']
is often quite different to real world DG hunting situations and how shot time frames actually pan out
once faced with all the possible variables and unpredictability of a real DG hunt.

Bwana and Trax nobody, I know, said that conditions on the range and in the bush would be the same! It makes little difference to what you are implying which is, it would change the speed between the bolt and double. It wouldn’t because the same conditions would apply equally to both types of firearm shooters. The working of a bolt rifle would not be easier than a double under the same conditions as long as the conditions were the same for both.

That is the leaky bottom in your paper tiger theory that keeps it from holding water!
It makes no difference anyway because that was already hashed out, by the invitation to try it yourself!

We have done it so have the PH licensing bodies of several Africa countries.

The best way for you to make your point is not with words on the internet, it will be on the range. When to first shot pops, the time starts, and when the last shot pops the bull shit stops.

None of this has one thing to do with the film you posted, if the man had been using a bolt rifle the conditions would have been the same, but you knew that didn’t you? This was posted simply to start the pot stirring again, nothing more! Sorry you didn’t set the hook!

.................................................................... I wont!

"Real world DG hunting can mean you have brush-foilage[and other interferences] in your way a lot of the times, causing hunters to often be delaying/extending the time-sequence of shots."


Trax

Agree re brush / foilage but what I was saying is I don't think he set himself up well by choosing where he took the first shot.

If he had chosen a slightly different position,
he wouldn't have had the issues of ducking and weaving to get around branches / foilage / bushes.

I shoot / hunt in some pretty close country,
closer than that and set up before shooting
for the follow ups is important in making sure any wounded don't get away.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: posted 14 May 2013 07:46
Think what ever you want Trax I'm through with you!

........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37: posted 20 May 2013 06:57

[B]TRAX]/B] Anyone know who that is? Who ever he is it seems he's confused about the meaning of the words "I'm through with you!" If that wasn't plain enough let me say it again I'm through with him on any subject!

.................................................................Here! Let me wave goodbye!

either MacD37 did not understand himself,
or MacD37 honestly cannot remember what MacD37 said,............ most likely dementia-alzheimers.

Trax, I reckon you're being too hard on yourself. Fact is, you had a great hunt, a great adventure Down Under, and a few seconds either side of theoretical perfect can't detract from that. Here's to many more happy adventures for us all!

Mac,
I am not implying anything... I did not mention bolt or double, simply that no one knows exactly what an animal will do when the trigger is pulled. I find it interesting you call me a troll... I actually speak from my own experience as well and have racked up quite a few days in the bush after dangerous game.

In fact I find you an arrogant old know-it-all who chimes in on everything and always claims the high ground because of your "experience". Maybe you should do a bit of background on those you castigate... some of us have a few years under our belt and know of what we speak. Just because we don't agree doesn't make you right and someone else wrong.

I tend to remember you were going to run off from the boards a few years ago when everyone didn't agree with your "wisdom"... maybe you should reconsider.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
simply that no one knows exactly what an animal will do when the trigger is pulled.

But you can have a pretty fair idea ?

Collapse at the shot or more than likely
go for a run and more than likely run
in the direction it is facing.

BWANA, well I suppose that told me your opinion of me!

Bwana I certainly feel sorrow for the way you feel about me, but there is nothing I can do to change that opinion. I certainly do not expect everyone to agree with me, if they did this would be a real boring website. My main problem here is with the constant straw-man posts that are simply designed to cause fights among posters and bring back old threads to life that were not worth discussing in the first place. If you doubt that just go to the Hunting Africa forum and see the last thread started by Trax.

On the instance of me leaving the internet, that had nothing to do with people not agreeing with me. Disagreement is what makes a debate, and what I find is, There are very few DEBATES here, only cuss-fights and name calling!

The reason for my wanting to depart from the internet had only to do with the fact that I was tired, and was going through some grueling cancer surgery and treatment that was sapping what little energy I had left, with the outlook at the time not good.

It looked, at the time, that I needed to reconnect with far flung extended members of my family, who do not post on the internet, and close personal friends who are even older than me. After a little time when I started feeling better I came back, but basically only on AR, when I got sick I was posting on several websites.

The reason I returned was because I was getting 30 e-mails, and PMs a day asking me questions, about things being discussed on AR many with the same questions, and it became apparent that it would simply be easier to answer these questions on the open forums than one person at a time.

Trax brought back this by timing the re-loading of the double and making the snide remark of "PAPER TIGER CONTEST" from the bolt/double speed shooting, which was Trax’s whole reason to start this thread was to bring back the crap that went on there.
About this thread and your post I was just saying that the conditions apply equally to any shooter, no matter what type of firearm he is using. That was simply in reply to the “PAPER TIGER” comment, because we all know that the conditions in the field cannot be duplicated but the mechanics can, and that was all that exercise was about. The fact still remains that a double rifle shooter is at no disadvantage to a equal man with a bolt rifle, as long as the conditions are the same for them both.

On me reconsidering my position on leaving here you may very well be correct in that advice, but I’ve never been run off from a place I wanted to stay, and I don’t think your post will do it either!

I am truly sorry if I upset you, that was not my intention. And to be clear I did not call you a troll, nor do I consider you a troll,I'm well aware of your credentials. I said don't feed the troll.

Nobody needs to identify a troll, they know who they are, and so do others! There is only one on this thread, and it ain't me or you!!


.................................................................

I have watched it several times now,, I think the hunter did well and have no issues with shot separation times. The shots were well placed and the end goal was achieved. I have looked at some of my past video's of water buffalo and never really counted seconds between shots before now. Sometimes it sounded like a war zone and others a slow day at the range. Never paid attention to it before now. The important part to me was 15 shot at,, 15 dead in the salt. I enjoyed the video loop. thanks