quote:

. But I have seen an awful lot of guys buy a 300 or 338 mag as their first CF, screw on a scope, and go hunting. And then wonder why they devlope a flinch.

Yeah, I once took a so called experienced sambar hunter red deer hunting in S.E. Qld some years back, the only 2 rifles this guy had ever owned was a 338 win mag and a 375 H&H, my regular hunting partner and I were both carrying 243's which this guy thought was a joke however after watching us both cleanly take animals with one shot, his attude changed, his effort with the 338 however was very dismal, firing his entire mag at quickly departing rumps through thickening lantana, luckily he didn't hit any of them.

His rifle was over scoped, didn't have enough eye releif, he flinched badly and it wasn't sighted in well enough.

Suffice to say we were not impressed with Vic deer hunters at the time and this bloke never went shooting with us again.

Hi Guys,
My Sambhur rifle is an old Husqvarna model 146 in 9.3x57. It's still has open sights. Loaded with Norma 286 grain Alaska bullets at a tad over 2,000fps it's a dandy close range rifle, it's accurate too
Other than a Red hind I shot earlier this year, I can't remember when I last shot an animal past 75 yards ( Mind you, there are lots of things I can't remember
).
At 30 to 100yards the x57 has plenty of power to do the job, providing and it's the eternal caveat, the placement is good. Penetration is great at the low velocity.
The other calibre I'd use, if I felt the need, is the x57's younger brother the 9.3x62. I have considered using the 7x57 but I just like the 9.3x57.

I just could not be doing with all that roaring and grunting from anything with the Magnum suffix.

Speaking with someone who lives in sambar country and has hunted them for around 30yrs, has found that he has never needed anything more than his 308NormaMagnum.I suppose with the quality bullets avail today,it only gets better.
Have also heard that the failsafes have given great penetration on brumbies and scrub bull, so should be sufficient for SAmbar. A 200gn NorthFork would more than enough missile to do the job.

when it comes to sambar, bigger is better....as long as you can handle the recoil. For me, recoil does not even come into it when it come to putting the cross hairs on a Sambar, the rifle range is not the perfect place to test ones tollerance to recoil.

duggaboybuff, you are absolutely right with that comment. However, the range is where most flinches develope.
The only time tested answer, is practice, practice, and then practice some more.
It's O.K, for me, I can afford to pass up shots, I can always go out next week. For the once a year guy, who is faced with a 'shoot at it or lose it for another year' proposition, bigger surely gives you more options.
But they need to practice, so that they CAN make the shot. I keep running into too many guys who either don't or can't put in the time to gain the proficency they need to do it.
For the guy who gets away once a year, but can find the time to practice, use the biggest caliber you feel confident with and can shoot accurately.
There is a reason the 300's and 338's are popular rounds in the VIC Alps, they do a good job, and can be mastered by most people, with practice.
If you don't have or cannot find the time (lots of people cannot!) perhaps stick with the 270 or 30-06, (tip, if you can shoot a 30-06, you can probably manage a 7mmRM)and pick your shots. You may have to go home empty handed, but then again, you may not!

Cheers, Dave.

when ones sees the size and bulk of a sambar stag, the tendencey to run even after WELL placed shots, and then to top it of , you never know which pose the animal will give you ,due to getting a drop on the hunter, or the thick country there in, distance is not really an issue, penetration, bullet weight and cal, and shot placement, thats why the 375, &458 s are not out of place , in fact they are close to ideal.
if you hunt sambar in open paddocks/fringe country thats a diffrent story , 22/250 with a 55 gn x is quite effective...but this type of hunting is an exception rather than a rule
daniel

If you consider that a sambar often lives in close forested or bushed country, is often a moving or running target, it is a very similar target to the running or driven game hunts in Europe (ie running shots in often thick forest) . The larger calibres especially the 9.3 mm cartridges have become very popular with this sort of driven hunting. And a large wild boar or a red stag is still a smaller animal than a mature sambar stag.

Makes some sense that similar calibres have become popular here (.338, .358, 9.3mm, .375).

Guys,
If I can play devil's advocate for a moment. With todays great projectiles, penetration is almost a guarantee. Given equal bullet placement why does it really matter whether it came from a .270 or .458? A marginal hit is a marginal hit. Moving vs standing... again with correct placement why does it matter what the projectile came from? My favourite is a 375H&H because its a light rifle, I shoot it well, and I really like the caliber. For various reasons I feel that the old traditional woods cartridges of .35plus where as a result of inferior projectiles compared to what we have today. On soft skinned game its pretty hard to get a 300gr to "fail", much easier to get a 130gr to "fail", and by fail I mean inadequate penetration.
Just my thoughts...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
Given equal bullet placement why does it really matter whether it came from a .270 or .458?

Well wouldnt a bullet that has greater diameter make a wider wound chanel meaning more damage, more blood loss and a better blood trail to follow if an animal was to run after being hit?
Thus making a larger calibre more desirable.

But if you were to shoot a sambar at say 100meters with equal bullet placement with a 308win and a 300win mag with the same weight projectiles, What do you fellas think the diference would be?
They would both penetrate so what is the need for the extra velocity and powder?

cheers Nathan

Wow! Another 'piece of string' question! 350 Rem Mag, in the scenario you mentioned , the differences would be only marginal. But take the same scenario and shift the range to a 300m shot across a gully, and the higher remaining velocity and energy in the 300 Mag will make a big difference.
The extra 450fps at the muzzle means bugger all up close, if you are using the same projectiles, except to increase the chances of the magnum projectile breaking up, which is a common, but seldom mentioned side effect of very high velocities. That Corelockt or PowerPoint will work fine at 308 or 30-06 velocities. Try running them through a 300 RUM, or a 300/378 Weatherby, at 600 - 800 fps faster and you may get erratic projectile perfomance at close ranges.
Which is one of the reasons for stuff like the 'Failsafe' or Barnes 'X' projectiles.
Yes, a bullet that makes a bigger hole, and lets more blood out, and more air in, will work better in the scenario you decribe.
Wound channel? Are we talking temporary or permanent wound channel? For instance, a 300 Weatherby 180gr partition gold @ 3500fps will have a much larger temporary wound channel (temporary cavitation) than say a 458win 500gr@ 1800fps. But the 458 will have the larger permanent one. One will deliver more 'shock' than the other, which will just keep on going until it exits.
Con, only at the really extreme 'going away' type angles will it make much difference. For a shot at a standing, undisturbed critter, where the projectile can be placed cleanly into the shoulder area, it doesn't really make much difference what you use 270Win or 375H&H.
But if the only shot offered is a going away shot at a running animal, the 375 offers more options than the 270.
JMHO.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

BTW the 350 Rem Mag, the 35 Whelen and the 9.3x62 are what I consider to be the 'almost ideal' rifles for Sambar. Plenty of bullet mass, reasonable velocities, good trajectories out to 300m and not too bad in the recoil department.
If you can handle a 30-06, it won't take much practise to get used to any one of these.

Cheers, Dave.

Sambar,
"Piece of string" questions keep these boards interesting. You've caught my drift though, only taking the shots that perhaps we shouldn't be taking do the bigger calibers start showing some advantage. And its partly our ineptness that causes us to have to take moving shots on disturbed animals. Personally though, I see their largest advantage as a confidence one. Animals hit show it, and your more likely to also get a blood trail. Both are great confidence boosts when any animal you've fired on makes it out of sight.
Cheers...
Con

Con, that pretty well sums it up, hey? Although I dunno about 'ineptness' Sambar seem to have the ability to just vanish behind a tuft of grass. I used to use the 9.3 for exactly that reason, big holes in and out, plenty of 'oomph' to break bones, etc.
Now that I can't stalk, or handle my favourite big bores anymore, I find myself using the 7x57R or the 270 more and more. And it means I have to pass up a lot of shots.
I guess Kens saying of using the biggest gun you can handle comfortably is about the best advice to give to anyone.
Just be sure, if like me you are stuck with the smaller calibers, that you know the limitations of you cartridge/projectile combo.
Everytime I see a big stag at an bad angle or risky shot, I really miss my 338Win, 350RM or 9.3x62 or 9.3x74R.
Whoever bought my 416Rem, I hope you are having as much fun with it as I did!

Cheers, Dave.

M98, not to mention 22/250 is illegal in victoria on sambar.....and so it should be!

Sambar,
I thought the "ineptness" might raise some eye-brows . I'm personally still stumped how a Shetland pony on chicken legs can still be so elusive. I can still remember the first time I saw wild Sambar (pair of hinds) and they blew me away with their size and power whilst moving. Times like that its good for a beginner to know their rifle is adequate rather then get the self-doubts. So much of good shooting is just confidence.
Still regret not buying a Rem700 in 416Rem I missed out on a few years back. Nice chambering, but they were a bit muzzle heavy. I plan on building a 416Taylor one day, just love the idea of a round-nosed 400gr projectile, lopping along at an easy 2100fps...
Cheers...
Con

duggaboybuff,
That combo is apparently legal behind wire though in SA...
Cheers...
Con

duggaboybuff
when i was refering to the 22/250 i was going by what effect this cartridge had in N.Zealand when we hunted sanbar there, i agree with you also....that it should be illegal... but its not stopping droves of people shooting them with like calibres with night vision these days...wqhich is the UNSEEN CURSE !!!
daniel

CON
shoot a sambar in the guts with a 06 or 270 ang you will not fond it ....shoot him in the guts with a 375 ,416,458, and i think you will have more of a chance of finding him
daniel

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
And its partly our ineptness that causes us to have to take moving shots on disturbed animals.

I must be very "inept". I have taken many a successful shot on a moving disturbed animal.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
And its partly our ineptness that causes us to have to take moving shots on disturbed animals.

I must be very "inept". I have taken many a successful shot on a moving disturbed animal.

Put me down for ineptness too Nitro..i`m guilty of knocking over running deer.And thats with three calibres my 7mm my 308 norma m and a 270

The comment of "ineptness" was tongue in cheek, but adequately describes my situation in general. With near 30 years experince, gryphon proves the point that a big bore is not required for the moving shots either. Notice most of the hound crews also dont seem to use big bores. Placement is the key, always was, followed by a projectile that penetrates to reach the vitals. Now ... only 40 pages left to go
Cheers...
Con

M98, The trick is NOT to shoot them in the guts.
I can remember very well a Sambar hind, gutshot with, of all things, a 416 RM. We followed that hind for over 3ks, using dogs. If it had not been for the scent trailing dogs, we would have lost her. Correct shot placement is always one part of the answer.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
The comment of "ineptness" was tongue in cheek, but adequately describes my situation in general.

Hey fair enough. Who doesn't spook game.

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
The comment of "ineptness" was tongue in cheek, but adequately describes my situation in general. With near 30 years experince, gryphon proves the point that a big bore is not required for the moving shots either. Notice most of the hound crews also dont seem to use big bores. Placement is the key, always was, followed by a projectile that penetrates to reach the vitals. Now ... only 40 pages left to go
Cheers...
Con

Thats a very valid point(hound teams) Con in my time i cant remember a regular team member with any cal over 7mms `06`s and a 308...one 338 showed up with an irregular hunter only a few times,over all a high 90% were `06`s...good answer mate as its indicative of what will do the task (shooting sambar..often running) as there are many hundreds of deer taken over dog teams every year and these boys know what does the job.

NitroX,
I dont spook game, the Brittany Spaniel does , that's what I tell him anyway when we both get done over and he never argues back. Looks at me kind of strange though, like I'm an idiot!
Cheers...
Con

Con, that's funny, my dog does the same! You know, the 'look!' As if to say, "C'mon, I'm doing my bit, you are letting the side down. You better shape up bud, or I'll find someone else to go hunting with!"

Cheers, Dave.