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I got another written reminder of the difference between African and Asian Buffalo this afternoon. The latest issue of Dangerous Game Hunting magazine has an article by a Bob Stocker recounting his adventure hunting Asian Buffalo, two of them, with a Sako 270 Winchester. His "mate" shot his with a BLR in 308. Rich | ||
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Why? Cant you kill a Cape buffalo with a 270 or 308?  Oh - if this was in Australia their real name is Asiatic buffalo and most commonly referred to as 'water buffalo'. Although close, Australia isnt part of Asia. I guess Asian buffalo live in Asia. No need to capitalise the name buffalo either!! Just to be correct. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Woopy doo !!! Have seen them head shot with 6.5, 270 and upwards. Doesn't mean they won't and don't decide to get pissed sometimes !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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If it was legal, I would use my 30/404 for hunting everything in Africa. Including buffalo and elephant! And I bet you anything you like that none of the animals I shoot would notice the difference! | |||
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Thousands upon thousands of both Asiatic and Cape Buff, have been efficiently killed with seemingly small medium bores, ...and the vast majority of those people survived unscathed,even when nobody was there to back them up. How would it feel to have to urgently fire ones Searcy big-bore double at DG, only to have the barrels come apart before one could fire the 2nd,3rd or 4th round? | |||
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I shot my water buff with a 308 using 150 grain bullet. Probably not ideal but it worked. ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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I know a Rhodesian who worked as a Zim professional hunter after the war until he could not stand it any more and emigrated to Australia. He worked as a meat hunter and animal control on a large Rhodesian ranch for several years, shooting hundreds of buffalo. He used a FNFAL and ball ammo with great success. Why? Because that is what he had and could get ammo for. When he got a chance he bought a better gun! A 308 bolt gun with a scope. Why? better shot placement and he could get ammo for it and the 7.62 ball ammo worked great on every thing he shot with it. Get closer, get lower, get steadier, know anatomy and shoot carefully.  .If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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A lot of meat hunters here in Aus use 308. That video posted a while ago of the old days shooting for meat is a good example. But hell, where is the fun in that if you own bigger guns and only get a few shots a year !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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G'Day Fella's, A local bloke I know (lets call him Fred), went to Africa to hunt various species, including Cape Buff. It was some kind of shonky deal with a unregistered PH, that picked him up at the airport and took him bush for the hunts. When his "PH" found out that the only rifle he had was a .300 Win Mag (with 180grn Barnes X bullets) the "PH" told him you can't hunt Buff with that! Any way, to cut a long story short, Fred shot two Cape Buffalo, one shot each and both were emphatic kills!!! Sooooooo.................... Doh! Homer Lick the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity Just Once and You Will Suck For Life! | |||
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Its soberingly anticlimactic and most satisfying, to see what a proficient operator with .308win can do. Even when he occasionally needs to finish off a buff, he walks up with .308 and does it with ease. and in the video I don't recall him sensationlising about any buffalo charges. I am informed that SA Parks use .308win/FN solids- for their elephant culls, so I would say 308win is well up to the task on Cape buff. | |||
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Yes, but it only takes one time for one to get up from having been "spine shocked" as oppose to "spine broken" to potentially cause serious problem. See what stradling wrote on the other thread above this one re Buffalo Cull. "one got on top of Tony last year and dam near killed him it had been shot by a 300 win mag and was just laying there like dead he walked up and it jumped up and got on top of him in a second we had one do just that but there were 3 of us shooting at him when he did that" Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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505G, Since the downed buff surprised Tony so quickly, it really makes M.Sullivans approach on Capebuff seem like really bad practice. on the other point, I not aware of where the water buff was hit with the .300win for it to be able to get back up so quick. I do recall reading the early testing of the 300wsm [failsafes] on asiatic Buff, report said that from 30yd, the bullet first tore a 3" chunk from a tree, before entering the animal then penetrating 16" to smash the vertebra, stopping the rapidly approaching animal instantly. I recall a water Buff hunt that Nick Harvey went on some 30+yr ago with his 8mmRemMag, backed up by guide with .458win. IIRC, He recounted that it absorbed good hits his 8mm 220gn rounds and a whole stack from the guides .458win before eventually coming to a 'dead' stop....I can't remember if they were trying to stop a charge - or just trying to stop it getting into the long grass. | |||
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I have found that in most cases, unless that first shot takes out some part of the CNS or heart, the adrenalin starts to flow and they can be absolute buggers to put down, even smaller one's. So you can pump as many bullets in as you like but at that point a CNS is about the only thing that puts them down for the count otherwise they will just stand there and absorb it until they bleed out. Re "smash the vertebrae", the spine bones will tear apart any lightly constructed bullet because they are so hard. The only bone that I reckon is harder is the jaw which will stop anything even at close range and the bone covering the brain box, specifically the cavity / hollow bit. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I gather thats why the pro guy in the Buff cull video concentrated on brains shots with his ordinary 308win. He had more important things to do than perform body shots and then having to waste time waiting for them to die. he had a large buffalo quota to fill, And I gather the fastest most efficient & effective method was the brain shot. An aquantance of mine has cleanly taken large bovine in the far north, with Barrett 50bmg at about 1100yd. At that distance the 50cal pill is near 1400fps and its energy level a bit less than 180gn-30/06 is at the muzzle. >let me stress,,it was Not a hunting-trip & the shot was Not taken just to prove how faraway one can kill large bovine with 50cal. The small team were on a long field exercise that also required living off the land,hence; food was required,the bull spotted,dropped cleanly,required supply of meat taken, - end of story ...with none of the exagerated entertaining hype that tends to come from recreational killing of animals. | |||
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Trax All well and good if you hit the small window that allows the bullet to penetrate to the brain but plenty of places on a Buffalos head that will stop a bullet dead in it;s tracks. The Jaw for one - I fired a 570gn SN from a 500 Nitro at 6 feet into the jaw of one, it broke the first side and lodge stuck in the other side. I had been told it would so wanted to see it for myself. The hollow cavity / bone above the brain. Will stop a bullet and / or capture it without knocking the buff out. The base of the horns. I misjudged and didn't allow enough for the scope height and the 9.3 286gn bullet hit where the horns join the skull. Stopped bullet dead, the Buff, already severely wounded just shook it's head. Yes, it can be done but plenty of places to make mistakes. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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505G, Pro-[meat]hunters go for brains shots, PHs go for brain shots to save their clients bacon, yet sounds like you are suggesting recreational hunters are better to rely on body shots that can be just as unreliable as misplaced brain shots. - well placed brain shots are much more reliable/quicker killers than well placed body shots, correct? Some recreational hunters on the forum keep telling how 'right up and close' with bigbore is the way to hunt DG. right up and close, just to do body shots from a cold barrel? Seems contradictory as to why one would sensiblily and ethically want to get, right up and close. I recall Bell saying he got up close, not to satisfy his ego or prove himself, but for simple clinical operational reasons i.e.; to better place brain shots,for a quicker more humane kill, more efficient hunting approach. ..but would sometimes opt for the less desirable body/heart shot, if the much prefered brain shot was not offered. He favored the brain shot cause it saved him heaps of time by not having to track, time better spent braining more DG. He expressed how difficult & frustrating it was to find heart shot DG even after just running 40-60 yd before dropping to their death in the thick stuff he was hunting them in. He also found that the slightly 'off the mark' brain shot stunned the animals more than infuriated them, he found they were more likely just to get up and run off, rather than charge, like elephant more regularly did after being infuriated by a body shot. If some recreational clients cannot not reliably brain DG at a couple yds, then maybe they need to ask why they are putting themselves[and others] in such a potentially precarious position....almost seems like a silly or foolish 'stunt' hunt... Big Grin But as I've said before, numerous PHs will accept hopeless unreliable shot[even blatantly dangerous] clients when they have big bucks to spend with them. Just about every whim and weakness [some may even say desired 'stunt'] of the client, is catered for, and that don't matter whether they are carrying a spear or BiGbore rifle. For some reason people throw more shit and criticism at the spear hunter, than they do at the hopeless unreliable fool with a bigbore. When the end result could be much the same,...ie; PH having to do the real shooting & killing. | |||
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Honestly Trax - go get yourself some real trigger time mate. You keep quoting Bell and Co but it has zero bearing on shooting Asiatic buffalo... nothing, zip, nada. You are trying to argue points of physiology and terminal performance with people who actually have serious experience. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Of course IF you hit the brain but a lot more can go wrong as well as per my comments. I know numerous people who have hed shot a buffalo and watched it piss off into the difference. Head shooting as per the 1970's BTEC culling video from a vehicle by a person who has shot thousand is a completely different matter to a recreational hunter trying to head shoot one and fcking it up bigtime. One of the people I hunt with has shot thousands of buffalo and one of the first instructions to a visitor is don't head shoot them !!! I've seen him head shoot with a 6.5 from close range but he knows what he is doing and exactly to the mm where to slip in the bullet. I heart shoot them off hand out to about 100 yards and with a few exceptions, hit the heart, they are either drop dead there or they try to run a few yards but you can tell they are gone. A once a year shooter with a PH is different from Matt, myself and others who have shoot more than a few in varied conditions with a large range of calibres. Anyway, why don't you book one of these cull hunts, they are good value and one of the few opportunities to shoot a large number of big bodied animals in a short space of time. You will learn a lot. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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As Matt, said, we are talking Water Buffalo versus Cape buffalo and you even mention elephants ????????? I've already explained what happens when you are slightly "off" on a Water buffalo brain shot. They are not stunned and yes, most will piss of quick, wouldn't you if you had a chance ? Re getting up close, you can if you want and sometimes because of the terrain, brush etc I have been face to face across a bush with a mob of Buffalo, doesn't mean I always plan it that way !!! In reference to my other post before re 3 examples of where a bad head shot fails. I posted some photos of a sections buffalo skull on here a while ago, it clearly shows the cavity above the brain which is a bullet catcher ! Worth having a look. I am sure you know what a jaw bone looks like. You also need to remember that a Water Buffalo horns cover and protect the head from the side and behind, including the "base of the ear shot". Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Rich, the Australian Water buffalo is a feral animal - domestic stock gone bush. Similar to feral pigs & feral goats .... The REAL Asiatic WILD buffalo is a different species and you would NOT want to tackle it with a 308! The analogy would then be to Wild Boar or Ibex.  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Oh no - those 'same - same but different' buffalo are surely bullet-proof!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt, I recall a guy with serious experience in the 1970s who brain shot several thousand Buff he was contracted to kill, unlike you who earns his income from entertaining a string of novice DG hunters/personal thrill chasers. The 1970s guy also had no desire to hype up the Buff charge in his video, infact I don't recall him even mentioning charges, despite shooting thousands more than any or all combined on this AR forum....but he was not trying to hype sell DG thrill hunts to recreational hunters, And PHs will conduct DG hunts even with clients who are known hopeless shots. You think a pro like the 1970s culler, would accept a shooter on his buff killing team that can't shoot for shit? that would just create unnecessary trouble & complication? There are pro-hunters who are payed to cater and compensate to ever whim and weakness of novices, then there are pro-hunters/cullers who would not tolerate such ,because its bad for their business.
Rec. hunters applying body shots don't fckUp big time? The charges people like to hype about are not because of this? When the shit starts to hit the fan, where does the PH aim to stop a Buff pronto? Shouldn't the best/most rapid killings shot[brain/cns], be the ones encouraged and clients mentored on by the PH?
Is not good precise shot placement/quick kill desired on any or all of those DG ? When clients or PHs go after any of those close up-in the thick stuff, and the creature comes for them, their aim is successfully brain any of them is it not?...or do you recommend the body shot? Or do you recommend clients not do such close up hunting if they cannot reliable brain them? People strive for brain/CNS shots when they are desperate to save their panicky ass just few yds out from infuriated approaching DG, so why not take the opportunity to align a brain shot on an yet unshot/unriled DG? ...would that not be the better time to attempt such? IF such a relatively calm situation is considered too risky and difficult to attempt a brain shot by a recreational hunter, them what chance has the client got of achieving a stopping brain shot on rapidly bounding in -pissed-wounded DG, at just a few yd? Why is the brain shot more commonly attempted in desperation situations? Why not learn/attempt to brain him at a calm steady 40yd on the first shot, not just in the more haphazardly-desperate close-in, 'save ones bacon' shots? | |||
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We dont go chasing/shooting buffalo out of a vehicle like the cullers did - its a whole different world. Once again, go get some experience yourself before you slag off at me. Your distaste for my clients shows you are a fraud. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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No, brain / cns shots should not be encouraged because of the reasons I mentioned before a few posts back. Too many possible if's etc. I haven't shot that many Buff compared to Matt but 150 - 200 with a variety of calibres is enoughto get a very good cross section of experience. I have also probably seen another 200+ shot. That Buff where the horn stopped the 9.3 bullet dead. I was "backing up" a couple of mates, we were all on Safari in Arhnemland and had shot a Medium Buff for the Abos (out of a pair). It's mate pissed off and then came back. The PH said shoot it so we let the least experienced guy shoot it. It didn't go down, he pumped a few more bullets into it even as it tried to "charge" but both shoulder broken meant it couldn't. Then it dropped it's head and "presented" me with the base of the ear shot. It didn't work as explained before. Now a PH can't explain the ins and out of a Buffalo in the short time before a hunt so easier and safer to go for a body shot or maybe a Spine / Neck shot even though I don't like them (Hopefully Matt night say what he recommends). Secondly, out here in Aus, not all rec hunters go with PH's. My mate gave up backing me up (which I didn't know about until I turned around and he wasn't there). I asked him and he said he didn't need to. I have also found a body shot, heart / lung tends to take out one of the front legs. It can make movement a bit harder. Might come back later. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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505G, Why is the brain shot more commonly attempted in desperation situations? Why not learn/attempt to brain him at a calm steady 40yd on the first shot, not just in the more haphazardly-desperate close-in, 'save ones bacon' shots? Clearly the later, more intense pressure scenario, is not the best time for a recreational hunter to be attempting a charge stopping/brain shot. Seems illogical to, avoid attempting a brain shot when it is somewhat easier, then opting for it in desperation circumstances where it is much more difficult. Matt Graham will support the idea of spear hunting water buff,[which he personally considers a stunt] surely he would also support a client wanting to head-shoot a buff,...why in the world would he not? 505G,....should the act of client wanting to spear a buff be encouraged & supported,... but rifle headshots on buff, not...? That would seem bizarre. Professional guide Williams, does not shun the idea of brain shots on water buff. Seriously, if one cannot be confident of brain shooting a calm buff at further distance, or an angry charging buff a much closer range, Is one really fit for all what DG hunting can entail or require of a person? " A wounded 51" Bull turned and charged us, the hunter's brain shot (with 375H&H solid) knocked the Buffalo down 5m from me, we were catching our breath, when the Bull quickly moved to raise to his feet again (the first 375 bullet was low and only stunned the bull). We both reacted and fired, this time Malte's brain shot was perfect." - Graham Williams "Only an accurate brain or spine shot with a solid will consistently stop a charging wounded Buffalo." - Graham Williams
Vehicle or on foot, what stops you striving for the brain shot when guiding clients to stalk an animal? If it charges at you at close range after a body shot, you all will do your best to brain it,...correct? Why not then discipline to do a brain shot on the first round fired/stationary calm animal? Why only in desperate situations, where shot placement on the brain is even more difficult? on the other note; I don't have disdain for your clients, I just don't take recreational hunting too seriously and don't swallow the hype that follows a lot of it. But bcause you earn a living from it, you might need top present as different face to comfort and appease your paying clientele. They are just recreational hunters enjoying a holiday, I don't expect them to perform or shoot just like Bell. But I do like to see hunters strive to become better more proficient hunters/shots. Alas some don't have that need or desire, some just want a trophy to brag about at SCI, it don't matter to some if it was the PH who did the critical retrieval,securing and killing of the animal. - You have never had clients like that come through Hunt Aus. way back since the beginning of Bob Penfolds days of guiding? Do you descriminate against such clients/refuse their business? ...Is there any type of potential client that you have discriminated against in the past? Would you refuse a client/recreational hunter who's will & desire, was to headshoot a water buff? Would you strive to to do your best, by mentoring/coaching him, in order to help him achieve his holiday hunt dream? | |||
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Trax, A brain shot in a hunting situation is a risky shot and anyone who hunt a lot will know this. I'm happy to shoot deer at my folks place for the fridge with a head shot with a 22 BUT would not do this in a wild hunting situation for even the same type of Deer let alone a Bovine. Even a darn Elephant is out of sight in an instance in the habitat that the now are hunted most,not to mention that if the brain is missed and the beast is lost, it will be in a poor state that is unacceptable. | |||
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OK, from my experience. I have explained why I was told not to attempt brain shots first up and have had this confirmed by brain shooting the odd animal as a follow up and / or testing (500 Nitro Jaw bone) and from finisher shots. Finisher shots of animals down for the count but not dead. Quite a few times I shot low and went under the brain. Do that when the animal is calm, animal will / could just piss off with a sore jaw. I know people it has happened to who thought easy brain shot and then watched as the animal pissed off into the distance at 100 miles per hour and I know one still hadn't stopped at the many km mark !!! Re the "more haphazardly-desperate close-in, 'save ones bacon' shots?" Firstly, when the Buff charges, it is generally facing you, sometimes head down once it is going. Therefore the brain box is facing directly at you so the full area of the brain is exposed to you. (The hollow cavity above the brain box only catches bullets on an angle). If you are "high" o the brain shot, you tend to hot the neck / spine. If low, you are fcked but what alternative do you have ? To not shoot ??? Most shots are taken off hand, well most people I know shoot off hand. We don't use sticks, I rarely use trees as a rest and I use open sights. Even with a scope a brain shot off hand is not easy. I see OzHunter has posted a reply. He has hunted all over inc a lot in Africa, take his word if you don't believe me. I see you mention 40 yards. Not everything is shot close, on the flood plains it is a lot harder to get that close. Tree covered areas, you can often stalk up as per usual stalking methods. Finally, don't you ever listen to more experienced guys ? I was told don't head shoot so I don't head shoot. If I did, I wouldn't be hunting with him. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Trax Matt summed it up beautifully. "SMALL TARGET AREA, VERY WELL PROTECTED." "CLIENTS EITHER LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY OR THEY DONT GO HUNTING." Exactly as my mate said to me. I those days he backed me up (or at least had his gun handy and was ready to shoot if needed. Then one day I found he wasn't behind me following up with me. I asked why he said I could handle it. The thing is, he had seen me over a few (3 - 4) years drop 100 Buff in all sorts of situations. Matt sees someone get off a plane and regardless of what they say or how they shoot at the camp target, needs to make sure it doesn't turn to shyte out bush in front of the animal. As he said "I SEE IT EVERY TIME A NEW BUFF HUNTERS SEES A BIG BULL START JUMPING AROUND... THEY ARE ALWAYS WIDE_EYED WALKING BACK TO THE VEHICLE." So I don't blame him for how he conducts his hunts. And FYI Matt and I have had plenty of blues in the past so don't think I automatically agree with everything he says !!! From a previous post of yours. "505G,....should the act of client wanting to spear a buff be encouraged & supported,... but rifle headshots on buff, not...? That would seem bizarre." Er, well, before guns came along Aborigines killed Buffalo with a spear !!! Not saying they tried it on big bulls but they still speared Buffalo. A spear through the heart is more likely to get through than not or a bad brain shot with a rifle. As per the quote from Graham Williams, the clients first shot was low and missed the brain !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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They still are spearing buffalo in some places Nigel... but those guys know their craft very well. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yes, an old guy I met out of Maningrida, way way out back on the way to to the high country, they still speared them then. I think the place was called Corbidada, it's on one of the rivers, the Cadell River. And they also shoot them with shotguns !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Yeah, what the hell is that all about? We find quite a few bulls with shot pellets in the head and neck.... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Not sure, I think they just think "gun" and it will kill the animal !!! LOL On that same trip to Arhnemland, we came off the floodplain, loaded up the Quads, set off up the track back to camp. All of a sudden this Holden Jackeroo came bounding over the paddock at speed (bouncing all over the place as it wasn't exatly smooth !). The PH stopped, it was the local Abos who said they had shot a Buff and had borrowed a knife and wanted to return it. Anyway, we ended up going over to help and it was a cow that had been shot with something line 9 shot !!! And multiple times !!! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Is not Williams giving advice or clear suggestion, that its best to brain them if one wants to consistently stop a charge? Who would not want to consistently stop a charge? I certainly dont read Williams saying that the brain shot should be avoided on water Buff. Surely if its appropriate to stop at charge at close range, the brain shot can also be good to drop a more calm less riled animal at close range, on the first/primary shot at the animal. and I am still trying to understand how you view efficient kill as; ...a string of wounded buff over 300m that need to be followed up and finished off.... My idea of an efficient kill, is a brain shot that kills the beast right where he stands. but each to his own view of what efficient killing constitutes. | |||
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One more time - for the record - and for the benefit of Trax's education. Yes you would try for a CNS shot on a charging animal if possible. In my opinion, in most situations you would not opt for a CNS first shot on a bull, in a bush hunting situation because it is a low percentage shot. The mature water buffalo bull has everything going for it to stop a bullet hitting and penetrating the brain cavity. The culler and commercial harvester is in a different position because through thier experience and specialised equipment - they can place the bullet in exactly the right place (generally only on a stationary animal through) at exactly the right moment. They know the habits and movements of the animals to the n'th degree. The rec hunter is unlikely to have those capabilities and the PH is not able to pass that on in the field. Yes some clients are capable of doing this too - but it is very difficult for the PH or guide to assess the client to this degree. Thoracic shot with a well penetrating bullet is the safest first shot for clients IMO. A properly placed shot (and it is a good sized target area) means a dead animal, even if it runs off into the scrub, which they invariably do... the animal is DEAD or dying and follow-up shots can be made to ensure that happens. A fudged head shot, where the bullet enters but does not hit CNS properly - is a wounded animal, that chances are, will not die from that shot. That is the major difference. The other aspect is that with large caliber firearms, especially around 375 and larger with quality ammunition, you can expect to break leg or shoulder structures as well as getting full penetration of the chest cavity and its vital organs. This helps in anchoring the animal in the general area. The bigger the caliber the more chance of this happening (in general) and even the leg being broken on the off-side as well. Trax you can question me on this if you wish and question my personal experience and training. I don't know what you do for a living, aside from troll internet forums. I do this for a living - working out and executing the best way too bring large bovines to the ground - with hunters with vastly different experience and equipment. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I know Trax won't like this, as not a trophy hunter and probably finds such abhorent. BUT another reason for not using a brain shot, unless you "have" to, is , vital areas of the body, heart, lungs, etc. larger and will definitely result in death. Also, and this a big thing, IF you are the trophy hunter and have put YOUR $10k down, do you really want to ruin the trophy by probably messing up the head? Was reading a line by Cal Pappas, I think , and he's shot a Water Buff in the head, and said , it blew out the back of the head..which means left a BIG hole. While a taxidermist MIGHT be able to repair such a thing, I'm kinda thinking they'd rather not have to. Won't go into the difficulty of the head shot, as already been explained, in spades. | |||
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 I didn't take a picture of the back of the skull from Cals bull. But as you can see he had a heck of a lobotomy from the entry. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Nice rack George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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Was this bull taken with Australia wide safaris? I think I recognize the skull. | |||
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Trax Interesting that you think you talked to Bell-  Now you know why I call you a troll- "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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