Fire suit attached! First, these type of hunter problems are not NZ only but relate to many hunting locale/hunting types/etc.

Age 67, avowed fair chase hunter, non-desirous putting life at risk mountain climber hunter.

I have found hunting US(7 states), NWT(Canada), Alaska(yeah, one of the seven states noted above) and Africa most of us enjoy the beauty, and diversity of game. I find it very unfair to disparage older/local/disabled/etc. fellow hunters their chance to hunt the diverse game offered in the many countries/areas to the advantage of local/young/tough/etc. For certain the helo is a big advantage to those of us who cannot or chose not to be mountain climbers in pursuit of game, yeah call me whatever but to the extent we do not put game at a disadvantage vis a vis herding, etc. I am all in for use of placing hunters on top of mountains where they may then pursue game.

Bring it on. PS, yes NZ is on the very short list for my next trip into beautiful country and with the use of helo to climb for me!

muygrande - i doubt anybody here wants to prevent folk from using a helicopter to get up the mountain. The issue currently is the use of helicopters to a) herd animals by chasing to the point of exhaustion , then alighting the "hunter" to shoot the animal that now has no chance of escape ; and b) to actively use the helicopter as a gunship against the animals , frequently in areas were there are ground hunters , and frequently in areas that are specifically no-fly zones.

You need and can afford a chopper ride up the hill to then hunt on foot ? No problems in my book - as long as its legal under our laws.

Most of you guys miss the point, that its mountain animals your hunting, its about the landscape and pushing yourself as much as the animal, a helicopter used incorrectly just makes it a paddock and a goat. Its not about youth. follow this link.

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/for...B.cgi?num=1321150421

quote:

I am all in for use of placing hunters on top of mountains where they may then pursue game.

This shows a lack of understanding, that quite frankly, I'm tired of. You can't be placed on top of a mountain to pursue game,you can be flown into the mountains, no problem, but once you are flown too the animal, its no longer a hunt.
The fact is that mountain hunting is best suited to the young or mentally tough, you've made choices in your life that mean you've had some amazing experiences, at the cost of maybe not experiencing other things. So have I, but i don't begrudge those who have done or will do things I haven't or no longer can. And I won't cheapen an experience by cheating or making it some how easier for my benefit.
Of course we've said all this before, and all the really relevant things like the harm this is actually doing to the herd, but no doubt you will not listen to that either.

I don't see any problem with being flown into hunting areas, the great hunters of yesteryear used pack horses and other means to get to their areas, I'm sure if a better means of transport was available they would have used that. WE are getting acccessing areas and helihunting a little mixed up in some discussions me thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by wazza56:
I don't see any problem with being flown into hunting areas, the great hunters of yesteryear used pack horses and other means to get to their areas, I'm sure if a better means of transport was available they would have used that. We are getting accesing areas and helihunting a littler mixed up in some discussions me thinks.

Getting to the top of the mountain or into an area that can behunted from is not the same as helihunting. I wonder if the same attitude is affixed to using a 4WD to get as as close to the hunting area.

I read the OP as getting into an area not onto an animal and there is a big difference in my book.

Von Gruff.

Sorry guys, I've seen too much of this sort of language to be fooled. There is no flying to the top of mountains and fair chase combined.... its just guidespeak for spot and drop, the term for helihunting they tried to coin when it looked like hazing was going to be banned.
No one has a problem with flying into an allowed landing site.
Likewise you don't have to be a mountain climber or put yourself at risk to hunt Tahr,and thats the last thing a good guide would do, put his client at risk.
I've been around enough guides and clients to know where this is heading. There will be no camping or overnight stay in the mountains, very little walking.

Muygrande.... are you currently talking with a company about a trip here?

Shankspony, yes been talking to a couple of your South Island outfits and will probably book with one of them when my time comes to visit hunt your beautiful country.

Thanks for your info as well.

My advice would be to get hold of Highlander on this forum, Gerald Telford. He will be able to cater a hunt for you that impinges on no one and is fair chase on private easier land.

Don't let the guides convince you that a chopper hunt is the only way to go. It starts with talk of rides to mountain tops, and ends in a helihunt.

One has to remember that once one has flown into an area and been dropped off to hunt as it were - you still have to get around on top of that range. Its not a billiard table up there above the bushline. If you cant move more than a couple of K's from where you get dropped because of a lack of physical ability then you may be stuck in a spot from where you cannot access animals.

Quote Shankspony
"No one has a problem with flying into an allowed landing site."

Understand what you are concerned about Shanks.........interpretation of words & actions, scamming the intent.

similar situations exist in other activities.
the solution is in prescribing what is allowed , how its allowed & what monitoring equipment is required to enable cost effective administration of the intent where commercial gain is involved.

in the context of heliflights the potential solutions that don't turn locations into inaccessible wilderness sanctuaries are:-

- mandating satellite tracking devices for the choppers accessing prescribed areas.24/365 on-line requirement if they don't already have ALS transponders.
( Navman make reasonably priced effective ones used by the trucking industry worldwide.......if commercial chopper access is involved the operators can stump up for the equipment.........other commercial industries have to do it.
- pre-flight flightplan lodgement , direct most practical route for hunter insertion for fair chase in the prescribed areas.

Abuses are fairly easily detected & prosecuted
Prescribe the penalties for abuses & make them substantial .......... monetary, loss of guiding rights, ultimately loss of flight rights.

I do understand your concern about unscrupulous people scaming the intent & application of any words chosen to describe an activity.
But its no different than driving a vehicle on the roads...........and indeed owning a gun & possessing a hunting permit.
a balance between the facility of the activity for everyone & administrative controls of the activity , with monitoring, catches the scammers.

access to the facility of most activities involves a level of trust, monitoring sorts out the unscrupulous , who can't be trusted, without going to the extreme of banning access to the facility of the activity to everyone for its proper uses.

Shankspony, yes Gerald and Sue on the very short list.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:


Don't let the guides convince you that a chopper hunt is the only way to go. It starts with talk of rides to mountain tops, and ends in a helihunt.

This is very true...

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Fire suit attached! First, these type of hunter problems are not NZ only but relate to many hunting locale/hunting types/etc.

Age 67, avowed fair chase hunter, non-desirous putting life at risk mountain climber hunter.

I have found hunting US(7 states), NWT(Canada), Alaska(yeah, one of the seven states noted above) and Africa most of us enjoy the beauty, and diversity of game. I find it very unfair to disparage older/local/disabled/etc. fellow hunters their chance to hunt the diverse game offered in the many countries/areas to the advantage of local/young/tough/etc. For certain the helo is a big advantage to those of us who cannot or chose not to be mountain climbers in pursuit of game, yeah call me whatever but to the extent we do not put game at a disadvantage vis a vis herding, etc. I am all in for use of placing hunters on top of mountains where they may then pursue game.

Bring it on. PS, yes NZ is on the very short list for my next trip into beautiful country and with the use of helo to climb for me!

If you intend to hunt like this then dont come you may be legal but you are not welcome
Helihunt

I dont really care if another foreign hunter ever visits NZ.
Helihunting conducted by NZ guides is an abomination.
In case your limited comprehension has not figured it out, national parks dont let let you use helicopters to set up gound hunts, you have extremely limited access for that unless you helihunt then you can go anywhere you want.

If you come here to helihunt dont bother hopefully its just about finished two more days and we will know.
If you came here begging to be allowed to be flown somewhere in our national parks dont bother we are not changing our laws for you.
There is plenty of easy hunting on private land, there is plenty of public land that allows you to place a camp with a helicopter and plenty of ethical guides willing to take you ground hunting from there.

I am curious why NZ doesn't have some sort lof rule like Alaska. In Alaska you cannot hunt the same day you fly, whether going in or coming out. Aren't there people that fly into the mountains and remain several days in NZ?

Wow,
talk about rough handling in a response to a quote.
No need for fire suit, response grossly ignores the context of the OP quote , flames disappearing into the never-never at another imagined target well away from the OP.

Carry on MG ............99% of the responses across several threads on this sort of issue support chopper placement without hazing as fair chase.

wisdom comes with age
comprehension of context in a post comes with half decent eyesight and reading skills to provide adequate engagement of brain to respond within the context of a post rather than the active but misguided imagination of the reader.

The OP did not mention National Parks & clearly distinguished the issue of helihunting from his intentions in his concept of fair chase in his post.

Commitment to the cause of reforming helihunting approval by the jurisdictional authorities is laudable, but that does not excuse gross misrepresentation of the content of a post.

Have a nice day Weathered, enjoy your current state of fitness & I hope you lose your passion for hunting before you get too old, or you will turn bitter, twisted, & suffering depression in your old age at your inability to hunt in the manner of your younger days within your context of what fair chase consists of.
BTW .........don't forget to leave the vehicle at home & start trekking from your front door to your intended hunting area ...........to be true to your concept of unassisted transport in accessing a location for fair chase.

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Fire suit attached! First, these type of hunter problems are not NZ only but relate to many hunting locale/hunting types/etc.

Age 67, avowed fair chase hunter, non-desirous putting life at risk mountain climber hunter.

I have found hunting US(7 states), NWT(Canada), Alaska(yeah, one of the seven states noted above) and Africa most of us enjoy the beauty, and diversity of game. I find it very unfair to disparage older/local/disabled/etc. fellow hunters their chance to hunt the diverse game offered in the many countries/areas to the advantage of local/young/tough/etc. For certain the helo is a big advantage to those of us who cannot or chose not to be mountain climbers in pursuit of game, yeah call me whatever but to the extent we do not put game at a disadvantage vis a vis herding, etc. I am all in for use of placing hunters on top of mountains where they may then pursue game.

Bring it on. PS, yes NZ is on the very short list for my next trip into beautiful country and with the use of helo to climb for me!

If you intend to hunt like this then dont come you may be legal but you are not welcome
Helihunt

I dont really care if another foreign hunter ever visits NZ.
Helihunting conducted by NZ guides is an abomination.
In case your limited comprehension has not figured it out, national parks dont let let you use helicopters to set up gound hunts, you have extremely limited access for that unless you helihunt then you can go anywhere you want.

If you come here to helihunt dont bother hopefully its just about finished two more days and we will know.
If you came here begging to be allowed to be flown somewhere in our national parks dont bother we are not changing our laws for you.
There is plenty of easy hunting on private land, there is plenty of public land that allows you to place a camp with a helicopter and plenty of ethical guides willing to take you ground hunting from there.

Nah its all accurate and directly to the point.
Wanna get a ride to the top of the hill ? your a helihunter they are the only ones with a permit to do that, if you needed a helicopter to get you there the animals have already moved away beyond your capability to hunt them ... understand ?
Wanna get a helicopter to place a camp outside a national park and ground hunt ? your just a hunter, I have no quarrel with you, knock yourself out.

I get tired of people like the OP telling us how its going to be in my country. I do like winding you all up.
It is true I dont give a damn over anyone who needs a guide visiting NZ to hunt. I am indifferent to guided clients, you all contribute nothing to our hunting estate which is a train wreck anyway. Please feel free to find another country to visit.

Mygrande,just to expand a little on what Weathered has said.

Sorry to have to say this but if you can't foot hunt in our mountains then being dropped off on a peak is unlikely to be of much assistance. The simple reason being that Tahr are unlikley to remain within range whilst you are being dropped off. What next? If you cannot climb then in all probablity you cannot hunt through the country they inhabit,believe me it can be very steep and rough.So,are you proposing to have the Helicopter on standby to move you around? That is Aerially Assisted Trophy Hunting, a practice that is unethical, abhorrent and unsporting,a practice that sportsman in New Zealand have been trying to have outlawed.In my opinion you have left your run too late my friend,by your own admission you are too old or physically too unfit to cut the mustard as far as free range Tahr hunting goes.

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Wow,
talk about rough handling in a response to a quote.

wisdom comes with age
comprehension of context in a post comes with half decent eyesight and reading skills to provide adequate engagement of brain to respond within the context of a post rather than the active but misguided imagination of the reader.

The OP did not mention National Parks & clearly distinguished the issue of helihunting from his intentions in his concept of fair chase in his post.

This is my country I know it better than you pal. I know what the guy is asking for if you want to hunt tahr and chamois with a helicopter

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Commitment to the cause of reforming helihunting approval by the jurisdictional authorities is laudable, but that does not excuse gross misrepresentation of the content of a post.

No missrepresentation I got it very clear and gave a straight answer.

Next 2 days there should be an announcement about the end of helihunting

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Have a nice day Weathered, enjoy your current state of fitness & I hope you lose your passion for hunting before you get too old, or you will turn bitter, twisted, & suffering depression in your old age at your inability to hunt in the manner of your younger days within your context of what fair chase consists of.
BTW .........don't forget to leave the vehicle at home & start trekking from your front door to your intended hunting area ...........to be true to your concept of unassisted transport in accessing a location for fair chase.

Saying this after I offered I had no problem for a helicopter for your pal to set up a camp, looks like you need glasses and dont accuse me of out of context comments after that howler laughing my ass off at that.

quote:

You need and can afford a chopper ride up the hill to then hunt on foot ? No problems in my book - as long as its legal under our laws.

Yeah muygrande - I think muzza summed this up best! There are quite a few outfitters who will do right by you - have a great hunt!!

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Have a nice day Weathered, enjoy your current state of fitness & I hope you lose your passion for hunting before you get too old, or you will turn bitter, twisted, & suffering depression in your old age at your inability to hunt in the manner of your younger days within your context of what fair chase consists of.
BTW .........don't forget to leave the vehicle at home & start trekking from your front door to your intended hunting area ...........to be true to your concept of unassisted transport in accessing a location for fair chase.

Saying this after I offered I had no problem for a helicopter for your pal to set up a camp, looks like you need glasses and dont accuse me of out of context comments after that howler laughing my ass off at that.

Whoa
need to re-calibrate those eyes of yours W.
Your post with the offer (7.53) you refer to FOLLOWED my post(7.40) not preceeded it.

You assume far too much, too.
What's this "pal" bit, never met,or communicated with muygrande in my life.
I just prefer cogent, rational, factual discussion to misrepresented argument.

Howler is struggling to get past your foot in mouth about misrepresentation not mine.

Your passion for "winding you all up" is clouding the facts W.

If you don't think that an experienced copper pilot can't use the terrain to shield his approach to an LZ in a way that minimises the opportunity for the quarry in the intended foot searching area to be aware of his activities you need to talk to someone that knows a bit more about operating a chopper with skill rather than aggression when its required.


Have a great hunt Muygrande

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:
Have a nice day Weathered, enjoy your current state of fitness & I hope you lose your passion for hunting before you get too old, or you will turn bitter, twisted, & suffering depression in your old age at your inability to hunt in the manner of your younger days within your context of what fair chase consists of.
BTW .........don't forget to leave the vehicle at home & start trekking from your front door to your intended hunting area ...........to be true to your concept of unassisted transport in accessing a location for fair chase.

Saying this after I offered I had no problem for a helicopter for your pal to set up a camp, looks like you need glasses and dont accuse me of out of context comments after that howler laughing my ass off at that.

Whoa
need to re-calibrate those eyes of yours W.
Your post with the offer (7.53) you refer to FOLLOWED my post(7.40) not preceeded it.

You assume far too much, too.
What's this "pal" bit, never met,or communicated with muygrande in my life.
I just prefer cogent, rational, factual discussion to misrepresented argument.

Howler is struggling to get past your foot in mouth about misrepresentation not mine.

Your passion for "winding you all up" is clouding the facts W.

If you don't think that an experienced copper pilot can't use the terrain to shield his approach to an LZ in a way that minimises the opportunity for the quarry in the intended foot searching area to be aware of his activities you need to talk to someone that knows a bit more about operating a chopper with skill rather than aggression when its required.


Have a great hunt Muygrande

DenisB, Tahr have been shot from helicopters for game meat recovery and pure culling of numbers since 1966. In most areas the are fully aware of the danger helicopters present.
Point 2. assuming a pilot did manage to unload his client without the Tahr being aware of their presence,just how close to the animal do you think he could be placed?
I think you guys are splitting hairs to justify the means.
Look, I noticed someone mentioned Gerald Telford,I know the country he hunts very well.I'm sure any 67 year old in reasonable health could take a Tahr there without resorting to using a helicopter.And there are others who could offer this service if you scratch around a bit. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

If you don't think that an experienced copper pilot can't use the terrain to shield his approach to an LZ in a way that minimises the opportunity for the quarry in the intended foot searching area to be aware of his activities you need to talk to someone that knows a bit more about operating a chopper with skill rather than aggression when its required.

Now I know you are a loopy, if helicopters could be used the way you say, they would. Let me quote Harvey Hutton of Back country helicopters, Harvey is one of the most proficient helihunters and WARO pilots in the South Island.
Feb 12th 2010 Harvey told me directly that helicopter assisted placement or use of the helicopter to hunt could not be accomplished successfuly without herding and hazing the animals. This statement was supported by Blair Chapman of Mt Hutt helicopters. Its public record. Perhaps you might like to explain your helicopter ninja stealth technique to either of these guys, or can you suggest someone I can talk to please.
After the literally 1000's of hours observing tahr and chamois behaviour and even staking out in the middle of the wilderness with a long range camera I can vouch for the failure of helicopter placement unless herding and hazing is used.

Helihunts are toast now anyway this just came out helihunting is over thank the hunting gods for that.

United Future Agreement Ends Helihunting

Lifted from the document

Put in place the necessary legislative provisions to cease guided helicopter hunting on the conservation estate involving the shooting of game animals from helicopters and the herding and hazing of game animals as part of the hunt, and the inequitable access provisions for guided helicopter hunting in wilderness areas

We wont bank our pensions on that will we Weathered!
I'm still annoyed/bemused why the foot hunting is over looked so often as an option to Tahr hunting.
Haven't the time or energy to wish to begin to explain why so many hunters beleive the only way if the skyway for tahr hunting.
I have and will continue to foot guide tahr hunts with 100% success. We've had fit 75year olds and I've put unfit 30 year olds way beyond the pain barrier(theres not mine) on tahr hunts.
If we now have one less option for tahr hunting I may last a few more years in this industry yet.
I'm going back to guiding fishing ,hell I can rant and rave at things I know I have no control over, that comes after 25years of being out in the mid day sun!

Yep The devil will be in the detail but between the parlimentary commisisoner for the environment investigating helihunts and now UF it looks better.
I hope this helps turn thing around for those guides who I still have a great deal of respect for
All the best for you Highlander

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
We wont bank our pensions on that will we Weathered!
I'm still annoyed/bemused why the foot hunting is over looked so often as an option to Tahr hunting.
Haven't the time or energy to wish to begin to explain why so many hunters beleive the only way if the skyway for tahr hunting.
I have and will continue to foot guide tahr hunts with 100% success. We've had fit 75year olds and I've put unfit 30 year olds way beyond the pain barrier(theres not mine) on tahr hunts.
If we now have one less option for tahr hunting I may last a few more years in this industry yet.
I'm going back to guiding fishing ,hell I can rant and rave at things I know I have no control over, that comes after 25years of being out in the mid day sun!

I may have asked you before but cant remember. Do you not use helos to drop into back country, at all?? Just wondering...

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

Now I know you are a loopy, if helicopters could used the way you say, they would. Let me quote Harvey Hutton of Back country helicopters one of the most proficient helihunters and WARO pilots in the South Island.
Feb 12th 2010 Harvey told me directly that helicopter assisted placement or use of the helicopter to hunt could not be accomplished successfuly without herding and hazing the animals. This statement was supported by Blair Chapman of Mt Hutt helicopters. Its public record, perhaps you might like to explain your helicopter ninja stealth technique to either of these guys, or can you suggest someone I can talk to please.
After the literally 1000's of hours observing tahr and chamois behaviour and even staking out in the middle of the wilderness with a long range camera I can vouch for them too.

Not worth it, you & your advisors know it all, there's only one way .............your way.
If you haven't done it any other way or learnt the tricks of the trade you only know one way.

I'm just relating facts about animals & helicopters as known to me.


There's hundreds of chopper pilots whose quarry could fight back who know how to do it with finesse rather than aggression.Its not for everybody & its not for every location.

The fact that I have 20+ yrs experience with the observation of behaviour of heli-hazed animals and how close a skilled chopper operator can get to them without them spooking, by using the terrain to get well within viable day trekking is irrelevant and loopy in your eyes.
These are animals that can distinguish between a light plane & a chopper 2-3 miles away if its in the open , & disappear into the deep timber if its a chopper, but a skilled chopper pilot can get within half a mile of them quite successfully using the terrain to his advantage.

good riddance to the Heli-hunting........its not fair chase.

If you can afford the aerial taxi or use a vehicle for camp placement thats OK in my book.
( just use a chopper pilot who knows how to do it without spooking everything in your intended hunt area).
If you can do it all on your own 2 feet thats OK too........if thats your choice.

I'm confident that most of the members know people who can walk 100yds & scare everything within 'half a mile' too.
Its all relative skill.

( notice the lack of the words "stalk" & "hunt" in the previous sentence........they are people who carry guns.........the words are in their vocabulary, just not in their practice ).What they are doing is all they know.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
We wont bank our pensions on that will we Weathered!
I'm still annoyed/bemused why the foot hunting is over looked so often as an option to Tahr hunting.
Haven't the time or energy to wish to begin to explain why so many hunters beleive the only way if the skyway for tahr hunting.
I have and will continue to foot guide tahr hunts with 100% success. We've had fit 75year olds and I've put unfit 30 year olds way beyond the pain barrier(theres not mine) on tahr hunts.
If we now have one less option for tahr hunting I may last a few more years in this industry yet.
I'm going back to guiding fishing ,hell I can rant and rave at things I know I have no control over, that comes after 25years of being out in the mid day sun!

I may have asked you before but cant remember. Do you not use helos to drop into back country, at all?? Just wondering...

Within national parks there are very few locations that allow helicopter placement of rec hunters.
In Westland national park Horace Walker Hut in the Douglas, Christmas Flat Hut in the Karangarua are the only two I know of.
There are a two more in Aspiring National Park and a few in Mt Cook National Park, all up less than ten locations in the south Island, usually at a hut only is all there are.
Balloted helicopter access to a nominated camp site is available in the wilderness areas,once again camp location only no hunitng or helicopter movement allowed. Outside the parks irregular landing concessions are used these allow drop off and pick up the time can be 10 minutes or 10 days its popular for placement of hunters in the front country and is productive for less active hunters.
Irregular landing concessions do not allow herding and holding of animals, you still have to climb and hunt.
We have somewhere around 16,000 total tahr, 4000 in the parks and another 4000 in the irregular landing areas.

For the last time !!!

Helicopter placement of camps has never been under threat its hunter placement and helicopter participation in the hunt with the subsequent herding and holding plus the exclusive deal arranged for guides on public land we have opposed

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
We wont bank our pensions on that will we Weathered!
I'm still annoyed/bemused why the foot hunting is over looked so often as an option to Tahr hunting.
Haven't the time or energy to wish to begin to explain why so many hunters beleive the only way if the skyway for tahr hunting.
I have and will continue to foot guide tahr hunts with 100% success. We've had fit 75year olds and I've put unfit 30 year olds way beyond the pain barrier(theres not mine) on tahr hunts.
If we now have one less option for tahr hunting I may last a few more years in this industry yet.
I'm going back to guiding fishing ,hell I can rant and rave at things I know I have no control over, that comes after 25years of being out in the mid day sun!

And I hope you do last Gerald. Today should be a good day for you, and Chris as well.
I wish you guys the best, and hope you can make a strong industry out of guiding by decent means by true hunters. Hopefully now we may see a true value placed on Tahr and Chamois that recognizes the work you will do to get a client his trophy and provide a lifetime memory in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

For the last time !!!

Helicopter placement of camps has never been under threat its hunter placement and helicopter participation in the hunt with the subsequent herding and holding plus the exclusive deal arranged for guides on public land we have opposed

Yeah thanks for the info Weathered.

With the statement above though - I do think it is going to be hard to get this through to people, just what is allowed and not!

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

Now I know you are a loopy, if helicopters could used the way you say, they would. Let me quote Harvey Hutton of Back country helicopters one of the most proficient helihunters and WARO pilots in the South Island.
Feb 12th 2010 Harvey told me directly that helicopter assisted placement or use of the helicopter to hunt could not be accomplished successfuly without herding and hazing the animals. This statement was supported by Blair Chapman of Mt Hutt helicopters. Its public record, perhaps you might like to explain your helicopter ninja stealth technique to either of these guys, or can you suggest someone I can talk to please.
After the literally 1000's of hours observing tahr and chamois behaviour and even staking out in the middle of the wilderness with a long range camera I can vouch for them too.

Not worth it, you & your advisors know it all, there's only one way .............your way.
If you haven't done it any other way or learnt the tricks of the trade you only know one way.

I'm just relating facts about animals & helicopters as known to me.


There's hundreds of chopper pilots whose quarry could fight back who know how to do it with finesse rather than aggression.Its not for everybody & its not for every location.

The fact that I have 20+ yrs experience with the observation of behaviour of heli-hazed animals and how close a skilled chopper operator can get to them without them spooking, by using the terrain to get well within viable day trekking is irrelevant and loopy in your eyes.
These are animals that can distinguish between a light plane & a chopper 2-3 miles away if its in the open , & disappear into the deep timber if its a chopper, but a skilled chopper pilot can get within half a mile of them quite successfully using the terrain to his advantage.

good riddance to the Heli-hunting........its not fair chase.

If you can afford the aerial taxi or use a vehicle for camp placement thats OK in my book.
( just use a chopper pilot who knows how to do it without spooking everything in your intended hunt area).
If you can do it all on your own 2 feet thats OK too........if thats your choice.

I'm confident that most of the members know people who can walk 100yds & scare everything within 'half a mile' too.
Its all relative skill.

( notice the lack of the words "stalk" & "hunt" in the previous sentence........they are people who carry guns.........the words are in their vocabulary, just not in their practice ).What they are doing is all they know.

Your not a New Zealander are you ? you dont live here, you dont fly here, you dont hunt here.... Your qualifiers in your comments now admit to landing a helicopter within viable day trekking distance? You do not know the country here.
Another dreamer, so why dont you clear off maybe stick to writing stealth helicopter fantasy stories for people in your own country.
At the end of the day its NZ guides and NZ pilots who wanted helihunts here in NZ we will deal with them now. What you think or what I think about helicopters getting near animals doesnt matter a damn anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

For the last time !!!

Helicopter placement of camps has never been under threat its hunter placement and helicopter participation in the hunt with the subsequent herding and holding plus the exclusive deal arranged for guides on public land we have opposed

Yeah thanks for the info Weathered.

With the statement above though - I do think it is going to be hard to get this through to people, just what is allowed and not!

Not so hard a simple condition that prohibits any interaction by the helicopter with the animal or any intent to influence animal behaviour covers it in plain english. The helicopters are satellite tracked in real time every 10 to 30 seconds. The info can be accessed in theory but has always been denied us when we ask for it. That will now change.
I have a world class taxidermist 10 minutes away from where I live. He can spot a helihunted tahr simply from the damage to the animals sternum and feet.

If the NZPHGA had any ethics they would simply clarify and communicate no helihunting but because they are helihunt supporters they have not.
Now that recreational hunters have sorted out the guides poor hunting practice there will be law changes. I think you will find guides become clear about some unacceptable practise. To be honest with the exception of 3 or 4 very ethical guides NZPHGA are considered lower than whaleshit in NZ

quote:

To be honest with the exception of 3 or 4 very ethical guides NZPHGA are considered lower than whaleshit in NZ

More good news for you weathered, well the beginnings of good news, you'll begin to see a new face to NZPHGA very soon.
NZPHGA is more than capable of sorting out our own ship.
Nothing wrong with being in disagreement on a few points, or in some cases more than a few points BUT lets work on the few things we agree on. I'll not tell you what to do, I'll listen to what you have to say and make the best decisions for the guides association based on what the majority view of the association and its executive decide.
My personnal views may be more utilitirian

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:

I'm still annoyed/bemused why the foot hunting is over looked so often as an option to Tahr hunting.
!

You managed to get my fat 51 year old body up and down those mountains...twice

Truthfully, I couldn't imagine doing it any other way than on foot. Lots of mountains hunts all over the world are still conducted on foot so I can't see why New Zealand would be any different. It will change your industry for sure but it won't kill it.

Weathered - The NZPHGA is considered lower than whaleshit by some guides and outfitters too!!!

No it will not kill the industry - hopefully it will go part-way to destroying the lies and deception!!

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

Another dreamer, so why dont you clear off maybe stick to writing stealth helicopter fantasy stories for people in your own country.
At the end of the day its NZ guides and NZ pilots who wanted helihunts here in NZ we will deal with them now. What you think or what I think about helicopters getting near animals doesnt matter a damn anymore.

Lots of assumptions there W.
You haven't a clue about what I know about NZ, its terrain, or weather conditions.

You are going to need more than assumptions & passionate personal opinion to interact with the bureaucrats to establish a regulatory framework to provide effect to the outcomes of the review.

Ditto, in the way professional associations work.

When it comes to determining acceptable camp insertion practices by chopper ( given that you
reiterated your view of what is under threat & what is not) .............the sensitivity of the animals to the insertion determines in general what will be acceptable & what is not.

It is normal practice to day trek to & from a camp, when using a camp whilst hunting , Sir.

Hunting with clients has different imperatives to those of an individual recreational hunter.

Good post Highlander.......
"I'll not tell you what to do, I'll listen to what you have to say and make the best decisions for the guides association based on what the majority view of the association and its executive decide. My personal views may be more utilitarian '

Thats the way the real world & real politic works.

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

For the last time !!!

Helicopter placement of camps has never been under threat its hunter placement and helicopter participation in the hunt with the subsequent herding and holding plus the exclusive deal arranged for guides on public land we have opposed

Yeah thanks for the info Weathered.

With the statement above though - I do think it is going to be hard to get this through to people, just what is allowed and not!

Not so hard a simple condition that prohibits any interaction by the helicopter with the animal or any intent to influence animal behaviour covers it in plain english. The helicopters are satellite tracked in real time every 10 to 30 seconds. The info can be accessed in theory but has always been denied us when we ask for it. That will now change.

So if one is not directly persuing/interacting with an animal by Chopper/influencing its behaviour... by such,

then how far away must a hunter be heli-dropped from his quarry to begin his foot based hunt/stalk.. for it to still be considered real and ethical hunting?

...or in other words, how close can one Heli-drop a hunter to his quarry and still be considered a real and/or ethical hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Getting to the top of the mountain or into an area that can be hunted from is not the same as helihunting. I wonder if the same attitude is affixed to using a 4WD to get as as close to the hunting area.

I read the OP as getting into an area not onto an animal and there is a big difference in my book.

Von Gruff.

..

quote:

Originally posted by DenisB:

quote:

Originally posted by Weathered:

Another dreamer, so why dont you clear off maybe stick to writing stealth helicopter fantasy stories for people in your own country.
At the end of the day its NZ guides and NZ pilots who wanted helihunts here in NZ we will deal with them now. What you think or what I think about helicopters getting near animals doesnt matter a damn anymore.

Lots of assumptions there W.
You haven't a clue about what I know about NZ, its terrain, or weather conditions.

You are going to need more than assumptions & passionate personal opinion to interact with the bureaucrats to establish a regulatory framework to provide effect to the outcomes of the review.

Ditto, in the way professional associations work.

When it comes to determining acceptable camp insertion practices by chopper ( given that you
reiterated your view of what is under threat & what is not) .............the sensitivity of the animals to the insertion determines in general what will be acceptable & what is not.

It is normal practice to day trek to & from a camp, when using a camp whilst hunting , Sir.

Hunting with clients has different imperatives to those of an individual recreational hunter.

Good post Highlander.......
"I'll not tell you what to do, I'll listen to what you have to say and make the best decisions for the guides association based on what the majority view of the association and its executive decide. My personal views may be more utilitarian '

Thats the way the real world & real politic works.

Dennis, it may just be your writing style, I don't know, but this talk of insertions and such comes across as a load of bs. There is only a handful of places choppers are allowed to land inside National parks for recreational reasons, we all abide by that, and with this change expect the guides to abide by that. They are within a days walk or less of Tahr. No special "insertions" needed. outside national parks there is a more liberal landing policy. You have to see that in action to realize that they have such a fear of choppers, that coming within spotting range will disturb them. More likely scenario's are landing in Tahr habitat at a suitable camp site. Or having a guide on the ground as a spotter, and landing a distance away from an undisturbed animal via radio guidance.This has its problems too, as you will need two guides to a client/Clients, and weather/terrain/client fitness will still dictate much. Some spot and drop does occur, but it will have to now be careful it doesn't cross the line into helihunting. We will see what evolves, but with Peter Dunne as associate minister of conservation, I'm expecting it to be well regulated. I think Kate wilkenson will likely hand this entire area to him, she's likely very wary and tired of answering too Weathered and having to justify the unjustifiable.

Shanks
its just the language I use , I think, I'm just trying to keep the discussion generic in the principles & practices, with what will likely be considered from both sides of the argument .

Dealing with Gov't bureaucracies & having a good understanding of how they work & their decisionmaking processes when both constructing legislation & administering legislation, is something I have a LOT of experience with.

Passionate onesided argument can get their attention and achieve recommendations for change.
that's not the hard part ( hard enough tho that is )...........the really hard part is getting the legislation & the regulatory administrative framework in place that delivers the intent in a practical manner & not an abortion that Gov't passes off as an appropriate response to the recommendations.

IF you are not prepared to discuss & debate the pros & cons of alternative concepts to a potential pathway to reach an administrative objective you are not going to get very far in the process to come over the use of helicopters associated with hunting activities.

The history of administrative change is littered with the carcasses of those who agitated for change & were left behind by the administrative process of actually effecting that change.

I'm no supporter of heli-hunting

The key question to be answered is what is the administrative limit of the much talked about ( but detail avoided) "camp" insertions or hunter insertions using a chopper.
Your points about interpretation are well made.
and we have raised concerns about interpretation and trust in monitoring previously in threads.

The point here, is that the regulations will determine whats allowable & what will need to be monitored for compliance.

If you cannot , or are unwilling, to discuss concepts of definitions of what is allowable in open discussion , it doesn't engender confidence that the same task can be undertaken in the rarefied atmosphere of regulatory change , with the office of 'parliamentary council' submitting the words to parliament from a consultative framework where you need to express specific intent & the office of 'parliamentary council' determines the words in the legislation that they believe best expresses the agreed intent of the consultative process.
A twist in an alternative interpretation of those words can dilute their intent.

some of this is easy
some harder than you think.
just about everything in legislation has an exemption mechanism.
The basic intent is easy, controlling the scope of the exemptions is the hard part.

Identifying what's wrong is easy, identifying the concepts & words to provide an administrative solution to what is currently wrong is always the hardest part , & the part requiring the most attention for the solution to be both effective & practicable.
I humbly suggest that the hard work is not at the level of administration of the people you mention , but lower down providing advice to them...........who typically know less about the detail of the subject than you do, don't know who to trust in advice, & whom you need to convince what the practical concepts are, & work with them to provide words that have real effect in practice.

He He.........effective outcomes in the legislative process of regulatory change is giving the bureaucrats an effective & practical solution on a plate , in a manner that they think they came up with it & have ownership of the solution.
There is an art to engagement with them and its not by bashing down doors with dictatorial demands.You have to sell the solution & all its nuances in potential misinterpretation and scamming unintended outcomes.

Shanks you have your head screwed on right about the potential nuances that are possible, whether they are :-
-wanted ,or not, by everyone.
- achievable ,or not ,
by the potential proponents will depend on the interpretation of the words in the regulations to be developed.
which is why the devil in the detail with them is so important .
The use of a personal guide for the client and spotters in the field finding game for the client to be directed to is commonplace in the guiding industry worldwide.
The question at hand is the regulation & administration of how the client is "inserted"
ie
arrives at .........
the vicinity of the identified game and what is meant by vicinity in a context of 'fair chase' and unreasonable potential impact on other hunters in the same vicinity .

In many cases the effectiveness of the solution is in the role of professional associations in identifying the appropriate application of those words within their membership and achieving commitment to & compliance with, a concept of activity which is a consensus acceptable to all the parties involved , both within & without their membership.
ie
effective industry self-management within the intent of the solution that the words in the regulation are representing .

Good luck guys, the hardest part of the process is yet to come.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:

quote:

To be honest with the exception of 3 or 4 very ethical guides NZPHGA are considered lower than whaleshit in NZ

More good news for you weathered, well the beginnings of good news, you'll begin to see a new face to NZPHGA very soon.
NZPHGA is more than capable of sorting out our own ship.
Nothing wrong with being in disagreement on a few points, or in some cases more than a few points BUT lets work on the few things we agree on. I'll not tell you what to do, I'll listen to what you have to say and make the best decisions for the guides association based on what the majority view of the association and its executive decide.
My personnal views may be more utilitirian

I advocate within NZDA that we need to get a working open relationship with the guides, its the guides who think they can ignore the rest of NZ.
When NZPHGA police their own members I will be the first to extend my hand I will however reserve the right to count my fingers afterwards.
If you dont get your house in order quickly, I think guides will find themselves the subject of external regulation from a GAC/govt appointed body. There are plenty who can detail problems and issues with New Zealand guides on public land. As the Parlimentary Commissioner to the Environment is now investigating concession activity on public land including helihunting the dead rat of helihunting will be laid squarely on the NZPHGA's doorstep. Whats the thought that the PCE may reccomend self regulation be removed from guides in New Zealand and govt regulation is brought in, or the GAC takes over administering you guys?
The associate minister of conservation may be given advice that guides operating on public land be govt licensed.
What are your thoughts?