INITIALLY TAKEN FROM GUNSMITHING HERE


Posted 08 January 2006 03:06
Does anyone have any info concerning experiences with either of these three calibers and Long Range (600 yards+) elk hunting????

Well, is it "HUNTING" or "SHOOTING"?

l prefer my hunting a little closer...all l can say is that l would not be comfortable taking a shot on any animal at that range...closing that distance to 100 to 150 mtrs without the animal being aware of my presence as l crossed an open field ....that to me is hunting..

coffee today mate?

My personal view is that hunting is conducted inside the ranges at which the animal has a reasonable chance of detecting you.

Shooting is what is done at longer ranges, or in situations where the animals chances of survival have been removed/reduced (spotlighting falls into this category).

Shooting elk (or any other animal) at ranges of 600+ makes you a sniper not a hunter.

I expressed these views on the US Hunting Forum once and was nearly linched for them! But I feel very strongly about getting close when I hunt. Don't get me wrong, I have done quite a bit of 'shooting' in my time but never refer to it as hunting.

BwanaBob, snipers traditionally shoot at targets that can shoot back! Other than that, I would concur with your post. BTW go to the big game forum here and make the same statement, you will get lynched there too!
Shooting an animal at ranges of 600m+ just make for an irresponsible shooter, not a hunter or sniper. What's the time of flight to 600M+? What if the critter moves? What is the wind doing? Too many 'what ifs' for me.
But then, I can afford to be picky about which shots I take, since I only live an hour from some of the best stalking in Vic.
For those who save for years to take that once in a lifetime trip to wherever, and may have to take that long shot, or go home empty handed, all I can suggest is, practise! You owe it to yourself and to the critter you are going to kill, to do it as cleanly and humanely as possible. The greenies and treehuggers hate us enough already, without giving them more ammunition.

Cheers, Dave.

I agree with Bob above.

Also I do not believe these 'snipers' can actually consistently hit the target at these extreme ranges. The target is not paper on a defined range, it is living, breathing, moving animal.

When I started off shooting I was amazed at how often tyros trying to sell me a rifle always claimed they were using it to shoot goats at "800 metres", thereby proving instantly to me they were dickheads. I always assumed they were confused and didn't understand the difference between 200 metres and 800 metres.

If these shooters are taking 600 metre shots they must be causing a fair number of wounded beasts and at 600 metres a wounded running shot would be impossible to make. I actually think shooting at these ranges for anything other than pest destruction (where ethics is often based on other factors) is completely irresponsible. Also if I drew a rare elk tag, I would try to make sure of the shot and get closer, not 'snipe' from a 1000 yards.

I wonder that we don't see the same sort of stories about hunters in New Zealand after tahr having to shoot 600 metre shots at the wary tahr in the high peaks? Maybe these guys (when not heli hunters) can actually stalk and plan a stalk?

In my opinion you will find a lot of these guys are lucky if they shoot 3 - 5 times a year at actual animals and most of it is armchair bullshit.

For example we have heard so much of it on these forums (African hunting) one person who has so soundly been exposed as a complete bullshit artist and con man but was held up for years as the all time expert!

"Armchair shooters" not hunters, Gryph.

Shooting. No hunting involved, may not know what hunting actually is. Probably a wanna be commando or other random moron. Not that I have strong opinions on the subject or anything.

Dean

Have a look at the site below . Some of the guys there would consider 600 yards as short range .Not interested in shooting game at this range personally although varmints might be a different matter .
I will say that some of the people on the site below take long range "hunting" very seriously and have the gear and the expertise to take animals at ranges most of us wouldn't dream of .
I find it an interesting site even if I don't agree entirely with their philosophy .You can certainly learn a few things about long range accuracy there .
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

Now,I've seen Saeed snipe Buff at long range with my own eyes.LOL
I admit he's a good shot tho,and he runs after them without breaking a sweat.
To my way of thinkinmg that's not hunting but each to his own.I like to get up closer to my quary,maybe not to close to Buff. Hares I have no problems getting close.

...hi guys just peeped over from ole EU to you down there, after folowing Sambar´s 9,3 posts on the subject in big game and found some sence here...

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:
My personal view is that hunting is conducted inside the ranges at which the animal has a reasonable chance of detecting you.

i find those that generally berate long range shooting/ sniping, or what ever you want to call it , are usually those that have not spent much time shooting at those longer rangers ,they have a rifle which is 3,4 ,5 years old and its still on its original barrel , ten years later its still on its original barrel....they inadvertantley are telling me all i need to know .....spend a bit of time shooting at 4,5, 600m and soon you will realise its no harder than taking a shot at 200m .
what is of far greater concern to me with long range shooting, is a proj which will expand adequatley at those ranges, especially once the distance gets over 5-600m proj tend to just drill through unless one is useing one of the super mags....30/378, 338 lapua
with an accurate rifle...one which will shoot under 1 moa at 100 , a good range finder, and a scope from premier reticle with dots for 4, 5, 6, 700m ...you cannot miss,
my own set up is a winchester m 70 , lieca 1200 range finder, and a leupold 3.5-10 scope with dots from premier reticle for 4,5,600m

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
i find those that generally berate long range shooting/ sniping, or what ever you want to call it , are usually those that have not spent much time shooting at those longer rangers ,they have a rifle which is 3,4 ,5 years old and its still on its original barrel , ten years later its still on its original barrel....they inadvertantley are telling me all i need to know .....spend a bit of time shooting at 4,5, 600m and soon you will realise its no harder than taking a shot at 200m .
what is of far greater concern to me with long range shooting, is a proj which will expand adequatley at those ranges, especially once the distance gets over 5-600m proj tend to just drill through unless one is useing one of the super mags....30/378, 338 lapua
with an accurate rifle...one which will shoot under 1 moa at 100 , a good range finder, and a scope from premier reticle with dots for 4, 5, 6, 700m ...you cannot miss,
my own set up is a winchester m 70 , lieca 1200 range finder, and a leupold 3.5-10 scope with dots from premier reticle for 4,5,600m

"You cannot miss"?
Well, all I can say is I must have been a crap shot. I used to stalk and shoot at things from long ranges for a living, using first a Parker Hale TX1200, then an Accuracy International SR98 (AWP). I can say right now that there are MANY things that can happen during your projectiles time of flight to its target. Your target may move. The wind can do funny things at 1600m, and so on. Even the 50 cal AMRs are effected by wind. At 600m, I would expect first round, cold zero, hits on target about 90% of the time. Once you start talking about shooting into the next grid square, luck becomes a factor.
When it comes to hunting, to me luck is finding the animal. The closer you get, the less likely you are to miss or wound you game animal.
Wounding bad guys? Fine. Wounding game animals because a shot was tried at extreme range, instead of trying to get closer? That's a bit different. It seems to be a past time for gadget freaks and 'Walter Mitty's'.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

Dave ...you know what i meant by the you cant miss comment...dont take it out of context...if it needs clarifying , i will clarify it
daniel

M98, yeah, I know. Just taking the piss!
I know that, with the right kit, and lots of practice, hitting targets at long ranges can become a viable option.
What disturbs me is some of the 'Walter Mittys' I see at the range, or worse, in the field, trying this stuff because they think they can, after reading an article in some shooting mag about it. No practice, inadequate gear, just flinging lead downrange. Or taking a shot at 400m, when cover was available to close the range to 150m, or worse still, just showing off to their friends.
Some people, can do it, but those people also practice enough to be able to pull it off, without undue risk. It's the ones who try it without the practice that worry me.
And give more ammunition to the Greenies when they stuff it up.
JMHO

Cheers, Dave.

quote:

i find those that generally berate long range shooting/ sniping, or what ever you want to call it , are usually those that have not spent much time shooting at those longer rangers

M98,

I think you have missed the point of what some of us (at least me!) are trying to say. It has nothing to do with the feasibility of long range accuracy but everything to do with the ethics of hunting.

I began my shooting career on the full-bore range shooting .303s, and later Omark 44s, out to 1,000 yards. I have also spent a reasonable amount of time flinging lead at distant animals so I know that some of what you say is definitely achieveable and I am not ignorant of long range shooting.

However, I choose not to shoot at game animals at distances outside the ranges at which they can detect me. It is a matter of fair-play and of employing the skills of HUNTING. It is also a matter of conscience and the sense of beating the animal on it's own ground; defeating him, not through the use of technology, but through my skills and senses versus his skills and senses.

And it is my responsibility, as an ethical hunter, to make sure the shot is as clean as I can make it and the probability of making a clean kill is inversely proportional to the range at which the shot is taken.

There have been many times when I have been inside shooting range from a good animal, and I have taken 'imaginery shots' at him, but held my fire and continued the stalk. As long as I can get away with it, I will continue to stalk in as close as I can. Only when I have definitely beaten the animal's natural defences do I feel confortable taking the shot.

Bowhunters often deride rifle hunters because bowhunters think that only they will stalk in close - well, they are wrong because I will often go within bow range even though I am carrying a rifle capable of 400 yards plus shots. (And I have been a bowhunter, as well, but do not like the way an arrow kills in comparison to how a bullet kills.)

In my trophy collection there are some animals that I am very proud of and others that I really, really wish that I had not shot. The ones that I am proud of are the ones that I truly defeated on their own ground. The ones that I am not proud of are the ones that I used technology to cheat on the hunt.

It is not hard to become a good long range shooter, and to employ technology to it's fullest, but it is very hard to become a truly great hunter (and I have a long way to go on that score!).

But please do not think that I am a sanctimonious elitist, because I am not. I am not beyond sniping feral animals from long range (when the priority is pest control), nor of spending nights out spotlighting for foxes and the like. But these are shooting pursuits and NOT hunting. They are enjoyable pastimes but nowhere near as satisfying as beating a game animal, like a sambar stag or a cagey old boar, on his own turf.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
i find those that generally berate long range shooting/ sniping, or what ever you want to call it , are usually those that have not spent much time shooting at those longer rangers ,they have a rifle which is 3,4 ,5 years old and its still on its original barrel , ten years later its still on its original barrel....they inadvertantley are telling me all i need to know .....spend a bit of time shooting at 4,5, 600m and soon you will realise its no harder than taking a shot at 200m . ....

Daniel

What game animals are you shooting at 600 metres, how many each year, how many trips per year?

9.3...i do not recommend that a novice goes out and starts shooting at those extended ranges, it takes time, and practice to become proficent at those ranges, and the fact is you have to practice on an ongoing basis , other wise you start to lose your edge, a lot of guys dont have the time to put in and thats not there fault, also a lot of hunters dont have the financial means to keep on practicing,...its gets pretty expensive when you add your fuel bullets powder etc etc,heck i spent close to $2000,on a 60 kilo keg of powder, and another 3,500 for 10,000 hornady proj never mind the primers etc etc and its up to each individual to set there REALISTIC limits...i for one if i dont have to, dont shoot at extended ranges, but if the opportunity presents it self i really dont want to be sitting there wondering if i can take the shot or not , and this to me has payed off in NEW CALADONIA on the rusa, in British columbia on Mule Deer, and in ALASKA on the the caribou, sure its only 3 times but in each case it meant i got the animal that i wanted,which otherwise i would not have gotten and two of those animals were absolutley phenominal, the rusa was 39 5/8 and the alaskan caribou was a big double shovel which scored pretty well.
B BOB
i hear what your saying, my philosophy is if you are going to attempt long shots , i think it is only ethical that you put the time in , and have quality eqipement, to MINIMIZE to the absolute minimum the chance of wounding your game , to some range finders may be gagets , and scopes with range dots toys but to me its an essential part of being WELL EQUIPET to take long range shots ...i dont think there are to many hunters who can estimate the range accuratley at diffrent altitudes, weather conditions, and terrain...that is a great skill to have
i also need to point out that some times its impossible due to the nature of the terrain to get close/closer to your animal, again the long shot is the onley option ...thar hunting in NZ is the classic example
last but not least , a fact that is so often over looked is the amount of lead that is thrown at animals at SHORT RANGE, where there is no chance to see if the animal has even been hit because the scrub is so thick etc etc , im particulary refering to sambar hunting...yet so little is ever said about not shooting at running sambar in the thick scrub , instead the gospel of big bores is talked about as if this will cure bad shot placement...i guess one needs to work within his REALISTIC limitatins

NITRO...are you implying im another R.A
i guess to me its not how many animals i shoot each year , but if im confidant/ proficent enough to take the shot when it presents it
self, and to be proficent /confident you need to put in the time , so far on the three accasions that i needed to strech the barrel on overseas trips it has payed off rather well , especially in ALASKA when i took my caribou, i had two choices one too shoot, one to pass up the shot, i took the shot , for one reason and one reason only , i was confidant i was going to connect ...and i did with the first shot.
PM you with an answer to the latter part of your question

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:


NITRO...are you implying im another R.A
i guess to me its not how many animals i shoot each year , ...

I was wondering how you can burn out all those barrels with all the long range shooting/hunting?! (ie the implication of your comments). If you have access to thousands of pigs, goats etc please invite me!

What sort of rifle / calibre are you talking about?

NITRO,
i think you must have taken / interpreted it the wrong way, yes accassionley i come across a purple patch, but as i said i mainley shoot/ practice long range shooting for when i go on those CHEAP , over seas trips
john all i shoot is the 06 ...i think i have about seven at last count, i do have the 375 which i think i posted you some pics , and i still cant work out why i got it , i put it down to a mid life crisis ...its cheaper than trading in the wife for an 18 year old blond
regards daniel

A friend of mine shoots a 7mm STW and gets about 600 shots in it before the barrel is history.

I think the 120 grainers were doing close to 4000 fps (but don't hassle me if that is wrong as I have no idea or dangerous - someone told him it was ). Used a metre long trickler to get all the very slow powder in the case. He claimed he was shhoting well to 400 metres plus, probably no hold over required at 400 metres.

The best I have done with my '06 was around 400 metres. Never used a range finder. I carry too much crap already.

quote:

Originally posted by Bushchook:
Have a look at the site below . Some of the guys there would consider 600 yards as short range .Not interested in shooting game at this range personally although varmints might be a different matter .
I will say that some of the people on the site below take long range "hunting" very seriously and have the gear and the expertise to take animals at ranges most of us wouldn't dream of .
I find it an interesting site even if I don't agree entirely with their philosophy .You can certainly learn a few things about long range accuracy there .
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

Those are the morons that set up a huge bench with an optical rangefinder, wind computer, three spotting scopes, windflags downrange, etc, etc, etc?

What a bunch of fucking idiots. Why not just call artillery in on the deer?

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bushchook:
Have a look at the site below . Some of the guys there would consider 600 yards as short range .Not interested in shooting game at this range personally although varmints might be a different matter .
I will say that some of the people on the site below take long range "hunting" very seriously and have the gear and the expertise to take animals at ranges most of us wouldn't dream of .
I find it an interesting site even if I don't agree entirely with their philosophy .You can certainly learn a few things about long range accuracy there .
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

Those are the morons that set up a huge bench with an optical rangefinder, wind computer, three spotting scopes, windflags downrange, etc, etc, etc?

What a bunch of fucking idiots. Why not just call artillery in on the deer?

yes mate i believe that you are right on there

HP, Gryphon1 and the rest
From a bowhunting point of view I find you guys shooting at more than 50 metres unethical and complete morons. I mean just how unsporting are you sitting back at 100 yards.
Get real will you, as long as the back drop is safe I say each to his own.
As M98 says it takes practice to be able to hit at long range.
Personally I find dogging of deer and pigs unethical.
As far as being able to hit what they aim at Carlos Hathcock claimed he could gaurantee a kill at 800yards any weather(I beleive I remember right) and that was with a varmint weight rifle.

Well grasshopper ( 416sw) from this moron to another moron should we listen to your ranting at all...now just to refresh your memory here is one of your previous posts with an account of golly gosh YOUR FIRST SAMBAR posted by YOU (may 23) read on.

Thanks guys I'm pretty happy about it. Have been out over the years more than 2 dozen times, I realise some guys go a lot more than that and never even see one. I did have the advantage of basiclly being guided on private property.
Was a long shot about 220yds from top of ridge into gully used the 416sw with Woodleigh 410sp.

I realise some people would not consider this hunting but I was out there and had to make the shot. Have done and do bow hunting so do the stalk in close thing as well and don't feel any less proud that it was a long shot.

I suppose that also having shot a hoggy hind with a 416 makes you feel real good too eh?

Mate just another thing i know my game and dont take kindly to being called a fucking moron (HP wont either or the "others").When you know how to hunt one can take game at any fucking range he wants to choose,the jury is still out on your ability to hunt.
.

Gryph

I think 416SW using the term "morons" was tongue-in-cheek.

Haha me too mate..they wont allow what i want to really say...

Looking at the variables in longrange shooting , time of flight was mentioned. A 180gn Nosler partition starting at 2,800 foot/sec. has a remaining velocity of 1,764 foot/sec. at 600yds. according to the Nosler manual. The time of flight would be well under a second. Not a lot of time for the animal to move. The second variable is the trajectory which is manageable if you are good at picking the range or have a rangefinder. Added to the custom reticle Daniel has the trajectory is manageable. The difficult variable is wind. Bottom line is Daniel has the runs on the board.
People need to avoid the intemperate language that has been used here . Some of the commennts have sounded like the remarks anti-hunters make about all of us. How you hunt is very personal and being able to shoot a deer at 600yds. requires a completely different set of skills to stalking close.
Remember Samuel Baker hunted sambar with a knife , he may consider bowhunters were snipers !
Mark

nitro,
i carry to much crap to ...its called WEIGHT, about 5 kilo to much
daniel

Marh Smith

A factor you did not mention is the rifle rest. Bench shooting with a bench rest is one thing. Shooting at extreme ranges from field positions is a completely different thing.

Anyway not for me, I prefer to get a little closer. Indeed my front sight of the doubles would cover the entire animal at ranges far closer.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Marh Smith

A factor you did not mention is the rifle rest. Bench shooting with a bench rest is one thing. Shooting at extreme ranges from field positions is a completely different thing.

Hear Hear NitroX

quote:

Originally posted by mark smith:
Looking at the variables in longrange shooting , time of flight was mentioned. A 180gn Nosler partition starting at 2,800 foot/sec. has a remaining velocity of 1,764 foot/sec. at 600yds. according to the Nosler manual. The time of flight would be well under a second. Not a lot of time for the animal to move. The second variable is the trajectory which is manageable if you are good at picking the range or have a rangefinder. Added to the custom reticle Daniel has the trajectory is manageable. The difficult variable is wind. Bottom line is Daniel has the runs on the board.
People need to avoid the intemperate language that has been used here . Some of the commennts have sounded like the remarks anti-hunters make about all of us. How you hunt is very personal and being able to shoot a deer at 600yds. requires a completely different set of skills to stalking close.
Remember Samuel Baker hunted sambar with a knife , he may consider bowhunters were snipers !
Mark

Get real Mark Smith a deer taking one step during the bullets flight will end up being shot in the arse at those ranges matey...not on with me,oh and i too have nailed long range stuff too but with nowhere like the percentage of accuracy achieved by getting a lot friggin closer something that is up to the hunter to do..
Your mate might have control over everything else but its the animal that controls its movements..
Hey do you remember when your son passed up a shot at the hoggy coz of the cover even though you were so close...now thats ethical MS

Anyway just because you have a 338 rum it dosent and wont make much difference with your once a year sambar hunt cobber especially with 600 metre shots All said tongue in cheek of course

Oh yes i have to add this below its an AR members signature how true

The true measure of a hunters skill is not the size of the trophy but rather the length of the shot with the greater measure of skill being the shorter shot---Jeff Cooper---*We band of 45-70'ers*

call it hunting or shooting thats up to the individual. But the long range stuff is like learning to play snooker on a full pro size table,seems abit daunting at first til you adjust, then when you come to a pub size table(normal hunting ranges;up to 200m?) its a walk in the park. You can start by practicing on long range dumby animal targets to learn your marksmanship. I would not criticise anyone too much on their attempt on a along range shot or close stalk as long as they have the right gun and skill.
I was on aguided hunt at Strathburn station, spotted amob of hog about 350yds away across amud flat heading into trees. Against the advice of my guide, I took the oportunity to drop two boars(2nd one running) with my .338win. He didnt have confidence in the distance, I did, (and he was smiling after I did drop them) and it was arifle I had only firedabout 1doz times to sight-in from out of the box. The Leupold 4.5-14 came in very handy. I still consider what I did as HUNTING.
I have also sat at the edge of wheat crops sometimes standing on a log to see the pigs comming through the wheat, and I would slam them just as they came out into the shallow edge of the crop at about 60ft, is that hunting? or should I have waited till he saw me and started running where I could have missed him and lose him wounded and suffering back into the crop?
The question/debate never ends as to what is ethical.

Ethics is up to the individual, when you are out in the field, no one is there looking over your shoulder to enforce it.

Cheers, Dave

If the shots at these game animals required a hefty trophy fee to be paid, hit, wound or miss, I wonder if 600 metre shots would taken???

(note the outright miss comment - I know places which charge for a miss at a trophy animal even without evidence of blood or wound)

Places charge for a MISS? A wounded and lost critter I can understand, but a miss?

Cheers, Dave.

gryphon 1
you included f#$%ng and "moron" was from HP's post.
As Nitro said it was tongue in check trying to prove a point that while you think 600yds isn't hunting there are people out there that think 100yds isn't hunting. - each to their own.

I belieive hunting can be done at any range you want (having said that, through a scope I mean - I don't include through a video monitor or grape shot from a cannon)
I have shot hog deer from 20yds out to 308yds( 308yds was with a 7mm) most have been between 40 and 100yds. I spent a lot more time and money getting the 308yd shot than the 20yd shot.

Proud of having shot a hog deer with a 416 - you bet.
Is it easier to shoot a 416 accurately - no.
Is a 416 lighter to carry than the average 270win - no.
Did it do as much meat damage as a 270 - no.
Don't understand the point you were trying to make here.

once again ANOTHER thread has digressed to some off beat lines..i suppose then i should ask if its ok to head shoot elephants at 600 yards (or further) with a .50 bmg.I think i will ask in another thread.


the original post was a q`s which somehow seems to have been overlooked...


HUNTING OR SHOOTING?

And somehow through it all it seems that some answers are from those that havent done or do much hunting...the jury has retired please dont disturb..

I don't like that long range blasting either but I shoot at running game if I think I can hit it and I might let one go at a coyote as long as the backstop is safe. So I don't want a law passed against long range big game hunting.

This is the place to hash out ethics however.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
Places charge for a MISS? A wounded and lost critter I can understand, but a miss?

I have been told it is common in Europe. You pay if you shoot. You miss, you pay.

I guess in these circumstances, most hunters would like a more sure, closer range to shoot at.

If this is true it leads me to, why if one is not paying, is one taking a shot at these ranges anyway? ie potential to miss entirely or wound.

Longrange or short range, would you call this this hunting or shooting?

http://poetry.rotten.com/failed-mission/