I note on the online visitors firearm application form that you MUST provide an NZ licencee contact now. This could difficult for some FIT self-guided hunters desiring to partake of NZ's generous hunting and shooting provisions. I raised the question why with the NZ police (see Q&A below) - their answer has raised some other questions with regard to travel with firearms in NZ - not just for visitors but for NZ residents it would seem.

If anyone has any information about this it would be appreciated.


Your Name: Matt Graham

In regards to your website - 'NZ Visitors Firearms Licence' online application form. On page 5 it asks for a storage facility contact and an associated NZ firearm Licence number. If you do not fill out this section you cannot proceed with the application

This form does not allow overseas visitors coming to NZ to do a self-guided hunt (as many do), who may not have a local contact for storage - they will be with (in possession of) and responsible for their firearms during the duration of their stay in NZ.

What do visitors do in this case? It is lawful for them to do this but they do not seem to be accommodated for this in this form. They should only have to list where they will be staying and their other contact info - it would seem to me.

Any help in this would be appreciated

Best Regards
Matt Graham

On Behalf Of firearms@police.govt.nz
Sent: Monday, 18 April 2016 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: Form submission from: Contact New Zealand Police

Hi Matt,

The New Zealand Visitors Firearms Licence is still considered a New Zealand Firearms Licence, and as such all who have a visitors licence must uphold the law the same as a New Zealand firearms licence holder.

This means that when visitors come to New Zealand to hunt, the storage of their firearms must satisfy the New Zealand Police, hence why they need to provide a New Zealand firearms licence holder's address and details.

In cases where the visitor is going on a self-guided hunt or staying in huts or cabins, then prior to arriving to New Zealand, they need to notify their storage requirements with the local Arms Office (Police station) as well as on their application for a visitors licence, usually we communicate with them also.

Visitors can use chains or cables approved by police to lock their firearms in the huts whilst they aren't hunting.
However, if the visitor is staying in hotels or motels or in motor vehicles then they will need to arrange with firearms dealers or Arms Offices to store their firearms whilst in such situations as these are considered breaching the safe and proper storage of firearms.

Kind regards,



Thanks for that XXXX

In relation to your last paragraph – could you please refer me to the sections of Act/Regulations that refer to this – ie. That firearms cannot per securely stored, while licence holders are staying in vehicles, hotels, motels while traveling in New Zealand. I presume this is the same for NZ licencees – as you say visitors have to uphold the same standard as NZ licence holders.

Many thanks
Matt Graham

"Not our problem" box Matt do as we tell you or lose your licence

More Run Around Sue Games without any more of a substantial answer why did ? even reply at all?

Thanks for bringing this up.

George

Matt,
Although I am unaware of it NZ Police may have issued new conditions for visitors bringing firearms to NZ. The majority would be hunting with outfitters / guides and so would give those licensee and storage location details. For guys doing self guided hunts I hardly think NZ Police will be running around the back country enforcing the letter of the law. However, if strict firearms security is now mandatory in our backcountry huts a simple lockable trigger guard is far more practical and portable than chains or cables.
I am slightly suspicious that some of the info you've been given might be erroneous. Police now assign some of their more pedestrian roles to civilian contractors and I'm guessing that type of person has answered your enquiry. It might pay to resend it asking for an actual commissioned "arms" officer to review the info for accuracy.
Another avenue would be to ask NZDA ( NZ Deerstalkers Association ) to review the answers to your initial enquiry to see if they know anything about it. www.deerstalkers.org.nz
They maintain open communication channels with NZ Police and would have been informed of any significant procedural changes. However, as a member I can't say I've had any such advice from NZDA to that effect.

The issues as I see them are...

1. Visitors cannot complete the online application unless they provide the local licenced contacts info. The online form will not let you skip that field.

2. Police officers giving inconsistent information and generally talking crap. Others have received similar but slightly different info upon enquiry. Others have been granted their permit by calling N police and explaining where they will be staying and safety measures.

3. Questions over the legality of anyone keeping firearms in vehicles, hotels and motels (but as I understand it - this is actual crap).

It would just be good to find out what the exact situation is and put the police on the straight and narrow (if that is possible?). Obviously inbound hunters will be somewhat discouraged to receive this dodgy information...

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the "heads up". Sounds like the NZ laws need a bit of tweaking. Hope the NZ laws don't get as firearms phobic as the Australian laws, hey.
Jim

Yeah well I was hoping it wasn't even laws that need tweaking but simply a bit of 'policy'. Yes it would be a shame if NZ actually made it any harder.

Australia is a bit different, a very large country with 8 different provinces all with slightly different provisions and then a Federal government administering their own laws and then overseeing those state laws when it comes to import/export.

'Policy' can be a problem here too - the authorities (essentially the police) are often given powers to restrict throw policy and law interpretation. At the discretion of the commissioner'. Sometimes they can be corrected on these, sometimes they wont listen.

It is just policy. The law is you need to have a secure storage if your firearm is to be left unattended.
For the average kiwi hunter that means that while its in the car, someone has to stay with the car, and if stopping overnight at a motel etc, the guns are in the room with you.
Its not workable otherwise and by reading the reply you got Matt, it woud make most hunters here law breakers if that interpretation was upheld.
We do however need to have a secure storage before we can be issued with a licence.
Maybe try telling them the firearm will not be left unattended while in country?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
It is just policy. The law is you need to have a secure storage if your firearm is to be left unattended.
For the average kiwi hunter that means that while its in the car, someone has to stay with the car, and if stopping overnight at a motel etc, the guns are in the room with you.
Its not workable otherwise and by reading the reply you got Matt, it woud make most hunters here law breakers if that interpretation was upheld.
We do however need to have a secure storage before we can be issued with a licence.
Maybe try telling them the firearm will not be left unattended while in country?

Yep that makes sense - thanks. Ironically in Australia we are allowed to leave then unattended; if we take certain security measures particular to the state you are in.

I was looking at your Arms Act summary and it goes on about 'rendered inoperable' during transport. ??? We have one state here with that stupid regulation, where it is an actual offence not to have the bolt out (of a bolt action of course). Don't let them get away with this silly stuff.... Once it is law it is very difficult to change.
http://www.police.govt.nz/abou...d-legal-requirements

G'Day Fella's,

Matt, if you have no local person to lock up your firearm(s) with, I'd contact a Gun shop/dealer/Gunsmith in the Nth/Sth Island and ask them if you can use them as a local contact?
You may need to pay for this but................

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

quote:

Originally posted by HomerOz:
G'Day Fella's,

Matt, if you have no local person to lock up your firearm(s) with, I'd contact a Gun shop/dealer/Gunsmith in the Nth/Sth Island and ask them if you can use them as a local contact?
You may need to pay for this but................

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

Good idea! This isnt for me but rather others wanting to travel to NZ. II hate to see people being discouraged for no good reason.

quote:

Originally posted by jhaney:
Hey Matt,
Thanks for the "heads up". Sounds like the NZ laws need a bit of tweaking. Hope the NZ laws don't get as firearms phobic as the Australian laws, hey.
Jim

Jim watch for our bill s-223 ...

Phil

Your coming at it from the point of view that this is some kind of oversight. It is not.

It is illegal to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle for example, and it is also illegal to leave it lying around in a house / motel or even a hut unattended, and not in secure storage.
Obviously this is to discourage theft.

If you are going straight from the airport to the bush to go hunting and staying in huts, and would always have the rifle with you, then that would be fine, I am sure you could discuss this with the officer.

But if you are not, then legally you need to be able to store the firearm. Because you cant just leave it locked in your car while you go tripping around, or lying in your motel room.
I can't do that either.

An answer would be to ring a gunshop that is local and ask them, I am sure they would help you, or even the local police station themselves...

Interesting that some folk seem to think this rule is designed to discourage visiting hunters. All of us who live here have to abide by this rule , as Carlson Highway says .

Its still far easier to get into NZ with your hunting rifle than it is to get into Australia with a rifle or even just ammunition. If you allow enough time in advance to apply for your Visitors Firearms Permit then it shouldnt be an issue .

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
Interesting that some folk seem to think this rule is designed to discourage visiting hunters. All of us who live here have to abide by this rule , as Carlson Highway says .

Its still far easier to get into NZ with your hunting rifle than it is to get into Australia with a rifle or even just ammunition. If you allow enough time in advance to apply for your Visitors Firearms Permit then it shouldnt be an issue .

Not the point really - I didnt post this to put shit on New Zealand.

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Your coming at it from the point of view that this is some kind of oversight. It is not.

It is illegal to leave a firearm unattended in a vehicle for example, and it is also illegal to leave it lying around in a house / motel or even a hut unattended, and not in secure storage.
Obviously this is to discourage theft.

If you are going straight from the airport to the bush to go hunting and staying in huts, and would always have the rifle with you, then that would be fine, I am sure you could discuss this with the officer.

But if you are not, then legally you need to be able to store the firearm. Because you cant just leave it locked in your car while you go tripping around, or lying in your motel room.
I can't do that either.

An answer would be to ring a gunshop that is local and ask them, I am sure they would help you, or even the local police station themselves...

No - read what it says.... staying IN motels, staying IN motor vehicles. Clearly it is either incorrect advice or this officer is justifying why there is this impediment on the online application form. Nothing in there about being attended or 'in possession' as we would call it here.

"However, if the visitor is staying in hotels or motels or in motor vehicles then they will need to arrange with firearms dealers or Arms Offices to store their firearms whilst in such situations as these are considered breaching the safe and proper storage of firearms. "

They haven't responded to my follow-up questions yet.

I am an author, I can read perfectly well, thank you, and the officer is still quite correct.

Matt, honestly, just because you dont know anyone in NZ, doesn't mean that New Zealand have framed their firearms laws wrong, or that the policeman is hiding something, or misleading you. No one has to justify anything on that form. It's the law.

They probably haven't responded because your question has already been answered in full. They even gave you the solution too - if they don't know anyone here then they can 'arrange with firearms dealers...to store their firearms'

There is no impediment on the online form. The feild is there because you must be able come up with secure storage for your firearm while in NZ. This is not a mistake, it's law.
As the officer said in the first instance, while in NZ you must follow NZ law, exactly the same as the rest us.
You are not special just because you're on holiday.
Let me put it another way, if you can't come up with an address for safe storage, you will be - quite deliberately - refused persmission to bring a firearm into the country. And it won't be a mistake.

Now not to be difficult, but I must say that if I was you, I bet I could solve this wee problem, in about 15 seconds of thought. For the sake of a $25.00 permit and the freedom to do whatever I liked after I got it, I would just..solve that problem. Without writing letters to policemen.

SEction 19 of the Arms Regulations , 1992 - which is the relevant piece of legislation


19Conditions relating to security precautions
(1)Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following conditions:
(a)the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b)the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and ammunition for it in his or her possession, either—
(i)shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the ammunition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains access to the ammunition; or
(ii)shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c)the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
(d)the holder shall, where he or she has possession of a firearm that is—
(i)a flare pistol; or
(ii)a humane killer; or
(iii)a stock marking pistol,—
keep it in a locked container, except where it is under the holder’s immediate and personal supervision.
(2)On and after 1 July 1993 the reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) shall include—
(a)keeping on the holder’s premises—
(i)a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(ii)a lockable steel and concrete strongroom in which firearms may be stored; or
(iii)a display cabinet or rack in which firearms may be immobilised and locked so that none of them may be fired; and
(b)keeping locked or immobilised and locked in the cabinet, container, receptacle, strongroom, display cabinet, or rack required by paragraph (a) every firearm which is on the holder’s premises and which is not under immediate and personal supervision of the holder or some other holder of a firearms licence; and
(c)ensuring that no firearm in the holder’s possession is left in a vehicle that is unattended.

and this is the NZ Police Manual 2002 setting out how the NZ Police shall operate in relation to the relevant legislation.

http://www.police.govt.nz/serv...arms_manual_2002.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
I am an author, I can read perfectly well, thank you, and the officer is still quite correct.

Matt, honestly, just because you dont know anyone in NZ, doesn't mean that New Zealand have framed their firearms laws wrong, or that the policeman is hiding something, or misleading you. No one has to justify anything on that form. It's the law.

They probably haven't responded because your question has already been answered in full. They even gave you the solution too - if they don't know anyone here then they can 'arrange with firearms dealers...to store their firearms'

There is no impediment on the online form. The feild is there because you must be able come up with secure storage for your firearm while in NZ. This is not a mistake, it's law.
As the officer said in the first instance, while in NZ you must follow NZ law, exactly the same as the rest us.
You are not special just because you're on holiday.
Let me put it another way, if you can't come up with an address for safe storage, you will be - quite deliberately - refused persmission to bring a firearm into the country. And it won't be a mistake.

Now not to be difficult, but I must say that if I was you, I bet I could solve this wee problem, in about 15 seconds of thought. For the sake of a $25.00 permit and the freedom to do whatever I liked after I got it, I would just..solve that problem. Without writing letters to policemen.

You may well be an author but you are completely missing the point. I have plenty of contacts in New Zealand to use - but I would be effectively lying if I (for example) gave the address of a friend in Christchurch - but was going to go on a driving holiday in a campervan around the South Island with a firearm (just as an NZ hunter might).

Fellas - if this is just about providing details of a security location (shop etc) to tick a box - I get that, fair enough - that is beaurocracy. What I don't get is why/how the guy is saying that a firearm cannot be safely - 'reasonably' - be prevented from theft is a motel/hotel room? How does anyone legally travel with a firearm and not be able to do that?