Can anyone give me the dimensions for 303-25 cases.
I have a 303-25 which I acquired after a close friends father passed away.
He had it custom built back in the late `60`s or early `70`s.
I have loaded some brass using standard simplex 7/8 dies.
I find after firing the shoulder of each case has blown out considerably & with a much steeper angle.
The action is not the usual lee Enfield but rather a 1916 Danzig made Mauser 98.
As a result it can withstand heavier loads than the Lee Enfield.
Is there such a cartridge as the 303-25 improved ?

Thanks in advance for any replies
Morton

Morton - the problem with wildcats is that there is seldom any history to the rifle to know who chambered it , and therefore what version of the calibre you have.

Australians and Canadians made many wildcats based on the .303 British , and there really isnt any standardised version. Super Ammunition Company loaded commercial 303-25 ammo back in the 60's and into the 70's but that doesnt appear to be your version..

If your brass is not showing pressure signs , or failing it should be safe to load at least up to those 303-25 pressures and velocities. Check the ADI website for loading data and work from there.

You can mail a few shot cases to RCBS and they can ID the precise caliber and supply a set of dies.
RCBS has good service on reloading dies.

quote:

Originally posted by morton3:
Is there such a cartridge as the 303-25 improved ?

Thanks in advance for any replies
Morton

Mort, yeah there is (or was)... IIRC, guys like Don Black and Bill Marden Snr were in favour of them - gave pretty much the same performance as the 257Bob.. an acquaintance of mine many moons ago had one by Don Black on a P14, and it was a great round...

However as has been mentioned, it seems there isn't a 'standard' dimension, so it might be an idea to send a fwe fired cases to RCBS...

morton3,
I'm toying with the idea of chasing up on the 303British wildcats in Australia. I'd love a fireformed case from your rifle if your up to sending one.

Most 303/25's seem to be a 303British shortened a bit and keeping all other dimensions the same. I suppose it'd be called a '303/25 Sprinter'. There is also said to be a full-length case necked down which would be a 303/25 Falcon.

The blown out improved version was Hec Bridgeman's 303/25 Taipan ... 40deg shoulder and blown forward shoulder. Contact Keith Bridgeman at Sprinter in SA as it was his father that did them and I know Sprinter still has reamers for the improved 303 wildcats.

There was also a rimless 303/25 with rim removed and extractor recess cut in. There's also references to a 303/25Magnum which may have been the Taipan.
Cheers...
Con

OK, So RCBS will make the dies to suit my brass/chamber, Thanks Bob.
Rugeruser, The name Bill Marden seems to ring a bell for some reason.
Perhaps I have one of his 303-25 Improved chambered rifles.
Con, I`ve sent you a PM also but yes I`ll send you a couple of fired empties no problem.

What would the difference be in velocity terms between 303-25 & 303-25 Imp ?

Velocity differance will probably be in the vicinity of 100fps , depending on your handloads.

Like most "Improved" cartridges , the gains in velocity barely make the improvement worthwhile , and any game animal shot wont be able to tll the differance.

Its still cool to shoot those "old time" calibres tho.

Morton,

Bill was one of our better known custom 'smiths in the '60's and '70's.. made some beautiful rifles, and was kind enough to allow an enthusiastic young bloke to dodge school and spend weeks at a time in his workshop, while he questioned, and Bill patiently explained every little detail of what and why he was doing things. A real gentleman who was passionate about what he did.

Con, most 303/25's should be a standard 303 case necked down to 25 cal with no other changes to dimensions (same as 303/270)... the only shortening I'm aware of was the 7.7x54 to prevent 303 ammo being fired, or some of the 22 variants. Super and Riverbrand were definitely full length, as were Bill's standard chambers.

You may well be right about Bridgeman's Taipan, with the blown forward shoulder...

To make 303/270 was dead easy - pull the 303 bullet, neck down and insert a 270 pill - didn't even have to pull out any of the cordite. The 25 was a different matter, as you had to pull out something like 4 or 5 sticks of cordite, to keep pressure OK.

The canadians had a 303/25 improved called an epps,i have 2 epps improved 303,s a #4 and a p14and there seems to be some difference in performance over the standard 303 especially in the p14 i also have a303/25 p14 i was going to have it improved also but the gunsmith told me it wouldnt really do much improvement on this round.

I have a .303/22 on a No4 action,and a .303/270 and a .303/25 both on Lithgow SMLE actions. The .303/25 version I have is just a simple neck down of the full length .303 case as is the .303/270. I do trim them to 2.100" as a matter of convienience rather than need. The Riverbrand live rounds and fired cases that came with it make it clear on that - yes I did do a chamber cast. As to velocity, its a matter of bullet placement and the rounds are more powerful than many of the old time rounds which seemed quite sufficient for our grandfathers to put meat on the table. More info can be found on the ADI website as to expected velocities - my chronograph suffered a neat hole through the display when a gas check came off a cast bullet and followed a trajectory 8" lower than the bullet. I have not got around the replacing it yet.

If you Google the various Australian wildcats, you can find pictures of the various tortures that the .303 case was put through, especially the variants of the.303/22. Thankfully, all of mine were the simple neck downs.

I looked over a 303/25 for a friend the other day, it was a strange one in that it was slightly short of 303 dimensions base to shoulder, only a whisker in it but a die set based on straight 303 dims necked down woudln't have touched the shoulder. He may sell it but if he keepes it I recommended sending several of his fired cases to a die maker to get a properly matched die set. Super & Stag ammo appeared to chamber OK in it though so there wasn't too much in it. Shoulder angle was 22-23 degrees.
Steve

quote:

I looked over a 303/25 for a friend the other day, it was a strange one in that it was slightly short of 303 dimensions base to shoulder,

I have just aquired a 303-25, built, it seems, by Lithgow. It too has a shoulder just shy of the 303 shoulder, but the neck/shoulder junction is in the same place.

quote:

Can anyone give me the dimensions for 303-25 cases.

Yes, I can. Do you still need them? I have some factory 303-25 cases fired in a factory 303-25 chamber, both made in Oz. So those would be measured, not spec dimensions. I am going to make a set of loading dies and case forming dies for myself.

Not exactly on topic, but I'm going to throw out a bit of a philosophical question, I've been pondering. With all the various case types, out there, you Down Unders seem to have a real pre-occupation with the .303, which seems odd to me. I'm sure we Canadians had access to as many, or more, Lee Enfield type rifles, but have come up with only a couple of caliber variations and they are long in the past. In fact, I would say, nowadays its really unusual to find a Lee Enfield in the field here. How come?
Grizz

We still have many, many Lee Enfields floating around. My first rifle was an old 1902 LMLE with a rather poor 'sporterised' stock and rusted out barrel which I go for two bucks from my Uncle. I picked up a cheap surplus barrel for it then I made a walnut fore-end and bought a semi-finished walnut but-stock and made the scopemounts and in all had a heap of fun. But I came to like the Lee Enfield and it's cartridge. And it came from my Uncle! It's still the smoothest and slickest action around and it is a piece of history. Perhaps it's like the Winchester Lever Guns? Why do I plie my old 'budget' Remmington 512 Sportmaster so much? It also came from my Uncle and I rebuilt it and it just shoots so well and feels so well balanced and .....

I had one built on a P14 action but the only marking on the barrel is "25 Westerner". It was a blown out improved chamber with a sharp shoulder like an Ackley. The bore was cactus so I rebarrelled it to 375H&H.

Grizzly Adams,
I suppose its because its all we had for a period of time after the 2nd world war. Not a lot of other types of firearms were allowed to be imported so folks made do with what they had. All the different calibres may of came about because some shooters wanted something different, I would say. Kind of like all the wildcats on the 30-06 case.

Not to mention that they are actually fine rifles! They do have the slickest action ever.
Some say (make that everyone says) the Lee Enfield is not a strong action but thinking about it, I have seen pictures of blown up Mausers, I have seen a broken P-14, I've heard of blown or broken Mauser types but I have never seen or heard of a blown up Lee Enfield! (I saw one jamming up due to peening of the locking lug abutments due to excess headspace).

And of course that sad time in Australian history when their their Government didnt trust them with military calibre rifles so they couldnt actually use the .303 British . This gave rise to a bunch of 303 based wildcats , plus the interesting 7.7 x 53 which is what you get if you pull the barrel on your SMLE rifle , turn one complete thread off the barrel shank and reinstall the barrel . Presto - factory 303 case is now too long and wont fit so shortening the case by the equivalent amount makes a case of 53 mm ( I think its 53 anyway ...) and a rifle that is no longer illegal to use.

Riverbrand and Super factory-loaded ammo for this short 303 , you still see the odd packet at cartridge collector meetings in Oz.

Times havent changed much - the Australian Govt still doesnt trust its citizens with firearms. Shame really...

quote:

but I have never seen or heard of a blown up Lee Enfield

Thats because when a Mauser blows up everyone is suprised so they will take pictures and post them. When an 303 blows up they just bury it in the back yard and tell no one....oh the shame of owning a Lee Enfield......

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
And of course that sad time in Australian history when their their Government didnt trust them with military calibre rifles so they couldnt actually use the .303 British . This gave rise to a bunch of 303 based wildcats , plus the interesting 7.7 x 53 which is what you get if you pull the barrel on your SMLE rifle , turn one complete thread off the barrel shank and reinstall the barrel . Presto - factory 303 case is now too long and wont fit so shortening the case by the equivalent amount makes a case of 53 mm ( I think its 53 anyway ...) and a rifle that is no longer illegal to use.

Riverbrand and Super factory-loaded ammo for this short 303 , you still see the odd packet at cartridge collector meetings in Oz.

Times havent changed much - the Australian Govt still doesnt trust its citizens with firearms. Shame really...

That's pretty much it - firearms chambered in military cals were illegal for years.... (btw, it was 7.7x54....)...

quote:

....oh the shame of owning a Lee Enfield......

Did anyone chamber them for the 7x57 or the 7x57Rimmed? (I am still toying with the idea of a 6.5x57Rimmed on my No.4 action. 7x57Rimmed sounds good too but is getting a bit close to my existing 303).

They probably did but it was a simple way around the ban to shorten the barrel shank and chamber

Some years ago in the 1970's NZ, a shooter bought a No4 .303 plus reloading gear from another "shooter". Following the instructions, he loaded a 150 gr Sp and 40 or so gr of the supplied Nobels No1 Rifle powder - a good load. A very loud BANG, a disintegrated forend, a split barrel, brass fragments everywhere and the front of the bolt reared up and out of the barrel channel like a striking cobra - the investigating gunsmiths description as passed to me, not mine, I wish I could have said that - but the locking lugs, though severely damaged, did not fail, nor did the action. The firer was shocked, minor lacerations from the flying bits of wood - a very very lucky shooter.

A weak Lee Enfield action ?, yes, to withstand what turned out to be just over 40 grains of Nobels No 1 PISTOL powder, NOT Nobels No1 RIFLE powder. God only knows the pressure generated by that load.

And thanks to those British design engineers who finalised the No4 design, the steel suppliers, the quality control on the assembly line during WW2 and not least, James Paris Lee.

It split the barrel but the bolt only reared up like a cobra! HOLY COW!
I wonder how a MkIII would have faired?
Apparently tests have shown that is how they would fail but I was expecting to hear of the bolt breaking right off! I was told of a similar incident also involving pistol powder but this time a Mauser type action. The action 'shattered into bits' (that’s how it was told - the bits were taken to the gunsmith in a packet) but the barrel was intact as I recall. I have heard of a MkIII splitting its barrel when fired with a pull through cord left in the bore.